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Queen and Wano Sanji scaling: The final AP/Scaling discussion.

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Eseseso

Eseseso

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After speaking in another thread with Kachon and Emin about this, I have finally decided to make a CRT on this.

As you may have guessed from the title, this CRT is meant to show why Sanji and Queen scale to the God Tier value.

1. When Zoan Queen used Brachio Bomber on Big Mom, he cracked her skull (with the crik crak sound effects representing the cracking), and hurt her head. Keep in mind that his OWN head/skull was unharmed by this impact, and this is better than like half of the feats base Kidd did against Big Mom.

1.5. Yes, she injured him right before this, but he was playing dead and was later shown to have only suffered moderate injuries.

2. Yes, he coughed up blood due to Marco's shockwave attack. That said, it did not badly cripple him or do any lasting damage, so saying that he downscales from it (especially when a large reason that it hurt him so much was due to dura neg, which even made King bleed a little) is pretty faulty. Not to mention, he was completely off-guard when this happened, and his own Brachio Launchers made him cough up just as much blood.

3. He's repeatedly portrayed as comparable to King, whether in combat against Sanji and Zoro alongside King or when he and King both talk down to Jack. Or when Zoro said Zoan Queen and King would both be tough to get through in order to make it to the roof. Similarly, DJ Sanji was portrayed as comparable to Buso Zoro when he and Zoro knocked down Queen and King, respectively, and Sanji saving Zoro by blocking Hybrid Queen's attack with DJ is portrayed as just as impressive as Zoro saving Sanji by blocking a strike from King.

4. He threatened to kill Apoo, and Apoo would rather fight the Straw Hats than fight him, implying that, at the very least, his Zoan form would be durable enough to take Apoo's DF attacks (which scale to Base Luffy, Kidd, and Zoro), and that his Zoan AP would be enough to kill Apoo, who took a Punk Gibson from Kidd.

4.5. Also, Apoo wasn't scared of base Kidd, yet was terrified of Queen (we'll assume Zoan Queen).

5. Sanji temporarily fought King and Queen off-screen in a 2v1, and while he got overpowered, bruised up, and sent flying due to both of their attacks, this still means he took some off-screen hits from King. Queen hurt Sanji in his Zoan form, meaning he'd scale.

6. Rooftop Zoro viewed both Zoan Queen AND King as powerful threats, and while Queen is shown as base in the panel, Zoro only said this after Queen stopped him and Luffy from reaching the roof via his Zoan form biting them and throwing them to the ground.

7. Marco said both King AND Queen would be hard to take down, even with his High 6-A attacks.

8. Yes Marco sent Base Queen (who IMO downscales from him) flying. A severely tired/injured Sanji sent an equally Hybrid Queen flying just as badly and took him out of Hybrid, while Base Queen only suffered a slash and headbump from Marco's kick.

Of course, he's far below Big Mom due to being terrified of her, and this would only apply to his Zoan form and not his base (since as mentioned his base was sent flying by Marco's single kick), but he still should scale to the value of, say, Ace level, or at least the level of Apoo's Devil Fruit (especially since Apoo thought he couldn't beat Queen).

Now, who scales to this:

1. Queen's Zoan/Hybrid Forms, his Brachio Launcher, and his Vinsmoke weaponry.

2. Onigashima Raid DJ Sanji, and everything that post-Exoskeleton Sanji has besides his Base.


Who does NOT scale:

1. Base King w/o his sword, as he only clashed with Base Sanji, and his Base is only portrayed as comparable to Hybrid Queen with his Marco-level sword.

2. Base Onigashima Raid Sanji, as while he clashed with Hybrid Queen, he was being clearly overwhelmed until he used Diable Jambe.

3. Base Queen: Nothing to put him on this level, and he got ragdolled by Marco's kick.

4. Monster Point Chopper: Yes he hurt Queen and fought him for 30 minutes off-screen, so that's good enough for downscaling, but Queen was very clearly messing around and had a clear advantage.

5. Base Post-Mink Medicine Zoro with no Buso Haki: Yes he blocked a Danmaku from King that sliced Zoan Queen's hide, but he was sent flying by it, so he would downscale from this at most.
 
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Can people give their thoughts on the content in the OP itself instead commenting other things?

Some of the things in the OP have been put in prior CRTs in the past, sure, but the other half have not, and I know Eseseso would appreciate if y'all actually addressed them instead of insulting and mocking him. He put a lot of time in this CRT and its not fair to dismiss him with an off-handed comment.

If you have nothing to add, then you don't have to say anything.
 
It seems this is a controversial one and I'll play Devil's Advocate and possibly try to help the OP once I get the chance to read it.
Brb though.
 
Nierre said:
Someone give a TL;DR.. lol.
Click to expand...
1. Queen's Brachiobomber hurt Big Mom, and although she has amnesia, that doesn't lower her durability.

The fact that it hurt her head a little bit and Queen's head was fine means his durability should scale to at least around that level


2. Queen said he'd kill Apoo and Apoo was scared of him meaning Queen should scale above Apoo.

Even after taking hits from Rooftop Zoro, he still preferred fighting him than going against Queen for fear of his life, so he would scale to around Rooftop Zoro.


3. Queen to very little amount of damage from Hybrid Marco's dura neg, and even less from a non-dura neg attack, so he should scale around there, although slightly weaker.

Marco also said that its tough to beat Queen.


4. Portrayed as close to King, and not as far off as our profiles are they are right now suggest
 
Eseseso said:
After speaking in another thread with Kachon and Emin about this, I have finally decided to make a CRT on this.

As you may have guessed from the title, this CRT is meant to show why Sanji and Queen scale to the God Tier value.

1. When Zoan Queen used Brachio Bomber on Big Mom, he cracked her skull (with the crik crak sound effects representing the cracking), and hurt her head. Keep in mind that his OWN head/skull was unharmed by this impact, and this is better than like half of the feats base Kidd did against Big Mom.

1.5. Yes, she injured him right before this, but he was playing dead and was later shown to have only suffered moderate injuries.

2. Yes, he coughed up blood due to Marco's shockwave attack. That said, it did not badly cripple him or do any lasting damage, so saying that he downscales from it (especially when a large reason that it hurt him so much was due to dura neg, which even made King bleed a little) is pretty faulty.

3. He's repeatedly portrayed as comparable to King, whether in combat against Sanji and Zoro alongside King or when he and King both talk down to Jack. Or when Zoro said Zoan Queen and King would both be tough to get through in order to make it to the roof. Similarly, DJ Sanji was portrayed as comparable to Buso Zoro when he and Zoro knocked down Queen and King, respectively, and Sanji saving Zoro by blocking Hybrid Queen's attack with DJ is portrayed as just as impressive as Zoro saving Sanji by blocking a strike from King.

4. He threatened to kill Apoo, and Apoo would rather fight the Straw Hats than fight him, implying that, at the very least, his Zoan form would be durable enough to take Apoo's DF attacks (which scale to Base Luffy, Kidd, and Zoro), and that his Zoan AP would be enough to kill Apoo, who took a Punk Gibson from Kidd.

4.5. Also, Apoo wasn't scared of base Kidd, yet was terrified of Queen (we'll assume Zoan Queen).

5. Sanji temporarily fought King and Queen off-screen in a 2v1, and while he got overpowered, bruised up, and sent flying due to both of their attacks, this still means he took some off-screen hits from King. Queen hurt Sanji in his Zoan form, meaning he'd scale.

6. Rooftop Zoro viewed both Zoan Queen AND King as powerful threats, and while Queen is shown as base in the panel, Zoro only said this after Queen stopped him and Luffy from reaching the roof via his Zoan form biting them and throwing them to the ground.

7. Marco said both King AND Queen would be hard to take down, even with his High 6-A attacks.

8. Yes Marco sent Base Queen (who IMO downscales from him) flying. A severely tired/injured Sanji sent an equally Hybrid Queen flying just as badly and took him out of Hybrid, while Base Queen only suffered a slash and headbump from Marco's kick.

Of course, he's far below Big Mom due to being terrified of her, and this would only apply to his Zoan form and not his base (since as mentioned his base was sent flying by Marco's single kick), but he still should scale to the value of, say, Ace level, or at least the level of Apoo's Devil Fruit (especially since Apoo thought he couldn't beat Queen).

Now, who scales to this:

1. Queen's Zoan/Hybrid Forms, his Brachio Launcher, and his Vinsmoke weaponry.

2. Onigashima Raid DJ Sanji, and everything that post-Exoskeleton Sanji has. Yes, his Base Exoskeleton has no feats (yet) without DJ, but his AP should scale to his base durability, which was unharmed by Hybrid Queen's sword strike.


Who does NOT scale:

1. Base King w/o his sword, as he only clashed with Base Sanji, and his Base is only portrayed as comparable to Hybrid Queen with his Marco-level sword.

2. Base Onigashima Raid Sanji, as while he clashed with Hybrid Queen, he was being clearly overwhelmed until he used Diable Jambe.

3. Base Queen: Nothing to put him on this level, and he got ragdolled by Marco's kick.

4. Monster Point Chopper: Yes he hurt Queen and fought him for 30 minutes off-screen, so that's good enough for downscaling, but Queen was very clearly messing around and had a clear advantage.

5. Base Post-Mink Medicine Zoro with no Buso Haki: Yes he blocked a Danmaku from King that sliced Zoan Queen's hide, but he was sent flying by it, so he would downscale from this at most.
Click to expand...
Alot of this is just saying " Well yes, X took a considerable amount of damage from Y, but Y didn't have a lasting effect on them thus they scale to it ".
Which is stupid. Zoro shanked Kaidou multiple times and made him bleed each time but you wouldn't say the only way he scales to Kaidou is via Asura since that's the only one that left a scar on him.
Also BM was surviving stuff like shockwaves to the head and Kidd's huge metal structures sort of easily, so I'd take Queen knocking her head hard enough to remove her amnesia as either a plot device to get her amnesia out of the way or an outlier.
I apologize, but I do not think this CRT holds much water, and from the look of it and how people reacted to this, it seems it's been covered a lot in the past.
 
Also Zoro saying " Neither route is going to be easy! " doesn't put Queen equal to King or relative to him.
If it were King and Kaidou there instead, he'd say the same thing.
But King still doesn't fully scale to Kaidou. It just means Zoro would struggle with either of them but one can still be stronger than the other.
 
Like, let's say I had Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson standing in my way.
Either way, I'd get MOPPED really badly.
But I doubt those 2 are equal to each other. They're just really good fighters.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
In this case, both might be tough for Zoro, but this doesn't mean they're equal just because they both give Zoro a challenge.
Click to expand...
Which would make Queen scale, no?

The OP never claimed that Queen is equal to King because of Zoro's statement
 
main-qimg-a428743ce0c2e67867ed3fdf076b5dbf-pjlq.png

Guys... I think it's time we make the ground H6A... Kaidou hurt his head on it..
 
Eseseso said:
1. When Zoan Queen used Brachio Bomber on Big Mom, he cracked her skull (with the crik crak sound effects representing the cracking), and hurt her head. Keep in mind that his OWN head/skull was unharmed by this impact, and this is better than like half of the feats base Kidd did against Big Mom.

1.5. Yes, she injured him right before this, but he was playing dead and was later shown to have only suffered moderate injuries.
Click to expand...
This was a weak tired exhausted and drained ******* Linlin. We said this already
Eseseso said:
2. Yes, he coughed up blood due to Marco's shockwave attack. That said, it did not badly cripple him or do any lasting damage, so saying that he downscales from it (especially when a large reason that it hurt him so much was due to dura neg, which even made King bleed a little) is pretty faulty.
Click to expand...
This is not why we downscale
We downscale because there's superiority shown but someone's not too far off.
He made him ******* vomit blood. If he crippled him then he wouldn't scale at all, not downscale.
And Marco has no dura neg.
Eseseso said:
3. He's repeatedly portrayed as comparable to King, whether in combat against Sanji and Zoro alongside King or when he and King both talk down to Jack. Or when Zoro said Zoan Queen and King would both be tough to get through in order to make it to the roof. Similarly, DJ Sanji was portrayed as comparable to Buso Zoro when he and Zoro knocked down Queen and King, respectively, and Sanji saving Zoro by blocking Hybrid Queen's attack with DJ is portrayed as just as impressive as Zoro saving Sanji by blocking a strike from King.
Click to expand...
No he is not.
He is portrayed as superior to people King is portrayed relative to.

King is stated to be stronger than him.
You wrote "portrayed to be relative" all because feats happen back to back. That isn't portrayal, that's simultaneous feats happening.
Snakeman with Hao and Base Yamato with Hao aren't even close to each other but they both knocked back Kaidou. They equal now?
Eseseso said:
4. He threatened to kill Apoo, and Apoo would rather fight the Straw Hats than fight him, implying that, at the very least, his Zoan form would be durable enough to take Apoo's DF attacks (which scale to Base Luffy, Kidd, and Zoro), and that his Zoan AP would be enough to kill Apoo, who took a Punk Gibson from Kidd.

4.5. Also, Apoo wasn't scared of base Kidd, yet was terrified of Queen (we'll assume Zoan Queen).
Click to expand...
Queen was just blasting him and others with a bunch of disease darts. That's not AP
Eseseso said:
5. Sanji temporarily fought King and Queen off-screen in a 2v1, and while he got overpowered, bruised up, and sent flying due to both of their attacks, this still means he took some off-screen hits from King. Queen hurt Sanji in his Zoan form, meaning he'd scale.
Click to expand...
**** no.
You can't say "he got his ass beat by both of them but he should still scale"
Especially to King with a ******* sword, who we don't see fight till later.
Eseseso said:
6. Rooftop Zoro viewed both Zoan Queen AND King as powerful threats, and while Queen is shown as base in the panel, Zoro only said this after Queen stopped him and Luffy from reaching the roof via his Zoan form biting them and throwing them to the ground.
Click to expand...
This is so trash.
This is just saying that King and the dude with the darts (this is Zoro's only showing of Queen, shooting the darts)
Eseseso said:
7. Marco said both King AND Queen would be hard to take down, even with his High 6-A attacks.
Click to expand...
He said 2 dudes with broken stamina and endurance with decent durability around his level with a bounty over a ******* billion would be hard to take down
Would Katakuri and Jack scale too since they have bounties over a billion?
Eseseso said:
8. Yes Marco sent Base Queen (who IMO downscales from him) flying. A severely tired/injured Sanji sent an equally Hybrid Queen flying just as badly and took him out of Hybrid, while Base Queen only suffered a slash and headbump from Marco's kick.
Click to expand...
You can't say "they only got their asses beat, scale relative"
Eseseso said:
Of course, he's far below Big Mom due to being terrified of her, and this would only apply to his Zoan form and not his base (since as mentioned his base was sent flying by Marco's single kick), but he still should scale to the value of, say, Ace level, or at least the level of Apoo's Devil Fruit (especially since Apoo thought he couldn't beat Queen).
Click to expand...
You can't scale him to ******* Ace for no reason
Eseseso said:
Now, who scales to this:

1. Queen's Zoan/Hybrid Forms, his Brachio Launcher, and his Vinsmoke weaponry.
Click to expand...
Brachio shit does not scale by any means for minorly disabling and giving a weak ass ******* head injury to a weak and tired Big Mom
His vinsmoke weaponry has no reason to upscale
They will scale above their downgraded selves, not scale to the dudes who would kill them without any ******* weapons

Queen said she would kill him and that was when she had no weapons and was tired. You cannot scale em comparable.
Eseseso said:
2. Onigashima Raid DJ Sanji, and everything that post-Exoskeleton Sanji has. Yes, his Base Exoskeleton has no feats (yet) without DJ, but his AP should scale to his base durability, which was unharmed by Hybrid Queen's sword strike.
Click to expand...
God forbid
 
Welp, I tried.

I just wanted to get this out of the way before I did a DBS CRT.

Now I can keep away from doing OP scaling CRT's until Egghead ends.
 
KingTempest said:
This was a weak tired exhausted and drained ******* Linlin. We said this already

This is not why we downscale
We downscale because there's superiority shown but someone's not too far off.
He made him ******* vomit blood. If he crippled him then he wouldn't scale at all, not downscale.
And Marco has no dura neg.

No he is not.
He is portrayed as superior to people King is portrayed relative to.

King is stated to be stronger than him.
You wrote "portrayed to be relative" all because feats happen back to back. That isn't portrayal, that's simultaneous feats happening.
Snakeman with Hao and Base Yamato with Hao aren't even close to each other but they both knocked back Kaidou. They equal now?

Queen was just blasting him and others with a bunch of disease darts. That's not AP

**** no.
You can't say "he got his ass beat by both of them but he should still scale"
Especially to King with a ******* sword, who we don't see fight till later.

This is so trash.
This is just saying that King and the dude with the darts (this is Zoro's only showing of Queen, shooting the darts)

He said 2 dudes with broken stamina and endurance with decent durability around his level with a bounty over a ******* billion would be hard to take down
Would Katakuri and Jack scale too since they have bounties over a billion?

You can't say "they only got their asses beat, scale relative"

You can't scale him to ******* Ace for no reason

Brachio shit does not scale by any means for minorly disabling and giving a weak ass ******* head injury to a weak and tired Big Mom
His vinsmoke weaponry has no reason to upscale
They will scale above their downgraded selves, not scale to the dudes who would kill them without any ******* weapons

Queen said she would kill him and that was when she had no weapons and was tired. You cannot scale em comparable.

God forbid
Click to expand...
KT: "This kind of scaling is why I'm still around..."
 
KingTempest said:
This was a weak tired exhausted and drained ******* Linlin. We said this already
Click to expand...
Weak based on? Being exhausted has shown to not be a factor for Big Mom's durability. You have to prove this.
KingTempest said:
He made him ******* vomit blood. If he crippled him then he wouldn't scale at all, not downscale.
And Marco has no dura neg.
Click to expand...
Shockwaves.
KingTempest said:
He is portrayed as superior to people King is portrayed relative to.
Click to expand...
What?
 
Kachon123 said:
Weak based on? Being exhausted has shown to not be a factor for Big Mom's durability. You have to prove this.
Click to expand...
Go read WCI when she was tired, exausted, and skinny, and they noted her getting her ass beat to her being tired
Kachon123 said:
Shockwaves.
Click to expand...
Not every shockwave in One Piece is durability negation
Association fallacy at its finest

Shockwaves that work like dura neg get dura neg.
People who are in the vicinity of shockwaves that spread out omnidirectionally get their durability negated now?
Kachon123 said:
What?
Click to expand...
Jack
 
KingTempest said:
Not every shockwave in One Piece is durability negation
Association fallacy at its finest

Shockwaves that work like dura neg get dura neg.
People who are in the vicinity of shockwaves that spread out omnidirectionally get their durability negated now?
Click to expand...
Marco's works like that
 
Like bro

Ace fought Whitebeard a hundred times.
Got trained by him and in his last 2 fights he could hold his own.
Then he BURNED WHITEBEARD. TWICE
Then he fought the guys that WHITEBEARD FOUGHT.

Why is that now magically comparable to JUMPING SOMEBODY and BARELY WINNING
 
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