Queen and Wano Sanji scaling: The final AP/Scaling discussion.

[Eseseso]

This was a weak tired exhausted and drained ******* Linlin. We said this already

Her bones should still be pretty durable.

This is not why we downscale
We downscale because there's superiority shown but someone's not too far off.
He made him ******* vomit blood. If he crippled him then he wouldn't scale at all, not downscale.
And Marco has no dura neg.

He has dura neg shockwaves.

No he is not.
He is portrayed as superior to people King is portrayed relative to.

?

King is stated to be stronger than him.
You wrote "portrayed to be relative" all because feats happen back to back. That isn't portrayal, that's simultaneous feats happening.
Snakeman with Hao and Base Yamato with Hao aren't even close to each other but they both knocked back Kaidou. They equal now?

Fair

Queen was just blasting him and others with a bunch of disease darts. That's not AP

True, though Apoo didn't even try using his DF to attack Queen.

**** no.
You can't say "he got his ass beat by both of them but he should still scale"

He took hits from both of them, got up.

Especially to King with a ******* sword, who we don't see fight till later.

That's fair, since later we see King standing next to Queen with no sword in his hand.

He said 2 dudes with broken stamina and endurance with decent durability around his level with a bounty over a ******* billion would be hard to take down

Exactly, and if Queen's durability was far below Marco's AP, he would'nt have viewed him as hard to take down.

Would Katakuri and Jack scale too since they have bounties over a billion?

??

You can't scale him to ******* Ace for no reason

I wasn't trying to scale him to Ace, I was trying to say that Ace scales to the God Tier value despite being far below the actual Yonko due to his scaling.

Queen said she would kill him and that was when she had no weapons and was tired. You cannot scale em comparable.

Tbf the Yonko said they'd kill the Supernovas on the roof, they throw that statement out against anyone they mad at.

God forbid

Yeah that would be a bit dubious, I'll admit.

 

[Kachon123]

Like bro

Ace fought Whitebeard a hundred times.
Got trained by him and in his last 2 fights he could hold his own.
Then he BURNED WHITEBEARD. TWICE
Then he fought ****** that WHITEBEARD FOUGHT.

Why is that now magically comparable to JUMPING SOMEBODY and BARELY WINNING

Focusing on the wrong things.

 

[Eseseso]

Like bro

Ace fought Whitebeard a hundred times.
Got trained by him and in his last 2 fights he could hold his own.
Then he BURNED WHITEBEARD. TWICE
Then he fought ****** that WHITEBEARD FOUGHT.

Ok that's true.

Why is that now magically comparable to JUMPING SOMEBODY and BARELY WINNING

Queen did more damage to BM's bones than Base Kidd's punk Gibson did, and both surprised her.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the "Crik Crak" noises were probably from, y'know, a big ass dinosaur trying to push down on her skull and grinding her teeth together?
I wouldn't associate that with literally breaking bones as much as it is just pressing down on them enough to make a screechy noise.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Just pointing this out:

Yes, his Base Exoskeleton has no feats (yet) without DJ, but his AP should scale to his base durability, which was unharmed by Hybrid Queen's sword strike.

You can’t just do this cause why the hell not There needs to be a reason to scale AP from durability

 

[LordTracer]

Yes, his Base Exoskeleton has no feats (yet) without DJ, but his AP should scale to his base durability

I’m not gonna give a whole lot of input because I’m way too casual for OP scaling, but I have problems with this.

You can’t scale AP to durability without an actual reason. He needs to fight/harm someone that can damage him.

 

[Nierre]

the cavalry has come

 

[KingTempest]

I'm sorry but being starved, drenched in water, and losing 90% of your body mass ≠ Having amnesia.

"Having amnesia"

Fix your wording. You said that Queen is superior to people relative to King.

Ok

Queen is superior to people King is superior to ≠ Queen ≠ King

 

[Eseseso]

I’m not gonna give a whole lot of input because I’m way too casual for OP scaling, but I have problems with this.

You can’t scale AP to durability without an actual reason. He needs to fight/harm someone that can damage him.

Just pointing this out:

You can’t just do this cause why the hell not There needs to be a reason to scale AP from durability

Yeah, I realized that and conceded that.

Only his DJ and IJ would scale, for obvious reasons (although IIRC his IJ may or may not already scale, especially since his IJ did more damage to Queen than a weakened BM when Queen and Sanji were equally exhausted).

the cavalry has come

Still waiting for Emin

 

[KingTempest]

Queen did more damage to BM's bones than Base Kidd's punk Gibson did, and both surprised her.

Queen targeted Big Mom's head and barely fragmented her head

Kidd targeted her entire body

If I put a nuke in somebody's armpit vs me kicking their knee, would I scale to the ******* nuke because I did more damage to the knee than the nuke?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Queen targeted Big Mom's head and barely fragmented her head

Kidd targeted her entire body

If I put a nuke in somebody's armpit vs me kicking their knee, would I scale to the ******* nuke because I did more damage to the knee than the nuke?

Well the nuke would vaporize them

 

[Kachon123]

Being hungry ≠ Being 90% of your body mass and starving.

Proof that it lowered her durability?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Well the nuke would vaporize them

He means if the nuke's damage was solely focused in the armpit I'm guessing, and had little to no AOE.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Proof that it lowered her durability?

If I'm not wrong BM when starving and shit can get harmed by 7-As

 

[Eseseso]

"Having amnesia"

True, but that shouldn't really affect her bones.

If he'd simply cut her head then that'd make sense but it was her skull that got hurt the worst.

Ok

Queen is superior to people King is superior to ≠ Queen ≠ King

Thank you, I was honestly pretty confused for a sec.

Queen targeted Big Mom's head and barely fragmented her head

Kidd targeted her entire body

If I put a nuke in somebody's armpit vs me kicking their knee, would I scale to the ******* nuke because I did more damage to the knee than the nuke?

1. That's a wild-ass and very weird comparison.

2. His PG slammed BM's face to the ground and gave her minor bruises, he even mentioned IIRC to law that he wasn't able to hurt her that much until he used Awakening.

 

[Kachon123]

If I'm not wrong BM when starving and shit can get harmed by 7-As

She was not starving.

 

[Eseseso]

If I'm not wrong BM when starving and shit can get harmed by 7-As

But can they break her bones?

She was not starving.

Eh, she was like 50% of the way there, but yeah she wasn't starving NEARLY as bad as she did back in WCI.

 

[DaReaperMan]

She was not starving.

Was she hungry? A not-fully fed BM is still a much weaker beast either way.

 

[DaReaperMan]

But can they break her bones?

Why wouldn't her bones be weakened in the same way the literal rest of her body is?

 

[KingTempest]

Marco's works like that

no they do not

Is that not how shockwaves work..?

no

Her bones should still be pretty durable.

A Yonko's innards are significantly weaker than their iron bodies

He has dura neg shockwaves.

WHEN DID HE HAVE THOSE??????

?

Queen is superior to people King is superior to ≠ Queen ≠ King

True, though Apoo didn't even try using his DF to attack Queen.

Apoo was running away from Zoro

He took hits from both of them, got up.

You didn't even see the fight. We don't know if a single King hit sent him flying or not

And getting back up is not measurement for scaling, or else JUDGE would scale for getting back up from this

Exactly, and if Queen's durability was far below Marco's AP, he would'nt have viewed him as hard to take down.

Who said it's far?
We said it's not equal.
It can backscale. It already does backscale.

??

"Fighting 2 people over a billion is hard"
They're over a billion
Would they scale?

I wasn't trying to scale him to Ace, I was trying to say that Ace scales to the God Tier value despite being far below the actual Yonko due to his scaling.

Ace isn't far below.

Tbf the Yonko said they'd kill the Supernovas on the roof, they throw that statement out against anyone they mad at.

The difference?
On the roof, the Yonko said that to them.
In the prison, Queen said she would do that to him, after he got manhandled by her.

 

[Kachon123]

Was she hungry? A not-fully fed BM is still a much weaker beast either way.

KT is trying to equate

this to this

 

[Eminiteable]

no they do not

1. stated a shockwave
2. Only shown to damage Queen internally
3. bypassed lunarian flame on defense

 

[Eseseso]

no they do not

no

A Yonko's innards are significantly weaker than their iron bodies

Innards =/= bones.

WHEN DID HE HAVE THOSE??????

Uh, for a while now...

Even says so on his profile.

There was a whole shockwave CRT and everything...

Apoo was running away from Zoro

Was still willing to fight him and not Queen.

You didn't even see the fight. We don't know if a single King hit sent him flying or not

True, but Sanji still got up after scrapes, and his statement indicates that he fought both of them.

"Fighting 2 people over a billion is hard"
They're over a billion
Would they scale?

They'd scale for Marco calling them tough.

Ace isn't far below.

You right, my mistake.

The difference?
On the roof, the Yonko said that to them.
In the prison, Queen said she would do that to him, after he got manhandled by her.

Fair.

 

[KingTempest]

1. stated a shockwave

Ykw else is a shockwave?
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_1009_06-07%20redraw%20fin%20wm%20lvl.png

1. Only shown to damage Queen internally

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

1. bypassed lunarian flame on defense

The last one isn't accepted at all to even be blood

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I think if Marco damaged King despite his Flame-On Defense that just means he has immense physical strength or he managed to do something to his flames with his Phoenix Flames.
Not sure though.

 

[Eseseso]

Ykw else is a shockwave?
https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_1009_06-07%20redraw%20fin%20wm%20lvl.png

Did that shockwave hit any of the Supernovas?

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

His exterior body wasn't even affected...

I mean, even Chopper did external damage.

The last one isn't accepted at all to even be blood

IIRC before the shockwave thing it was a "retcon".

King bleeding only a bit is because, as chapter 1077 just showed us, Lunarians have internal durability as ridiculous as their external durability.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

IIRC before the shockwave thing it was a "retcon".

King bleeding only a bit is because, as chapter 1077 just showed us, Lunarians have internal durability as ridiculous as their external durability.

Spoiler

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_1077_soon010.png

 

[Kachon123]

Spoiler

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_1077_soon010.png

That just means that they don't resist heat-based durability negation.

 

[Eseseso]

Spoiler

https://cdn.****************.com/file/CDN-M-A-N/op_1077_soon010.png

Honestly, I was kinda thinking already that Zeus used dura neg considering it went right through him.

That just means that they don't resist heat-based durability negation.

Possibly.

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Honestly, I was kinda thinking already that Zeus used dura neg considering it went right through him.

Lunarians have internal durability as ridiculous as their external durability.

..

That just means that they don't resist heat-based durability negation.

False. They resist their own flames plus Sanji's DJ barely did anything to Flame-Off SeraJimbe.

 

[Kachon123]

Let's not derail.

 

[KingTempest]

Innards =/= bones.

Bones = innards

These are people with large scale noted exteriors. You can't just scale their bones to that.

Uh, for a while now...

Even says so on his profile.

There was a whole shockwave CRT and everything...

Damn I missed a lot

Was still willing to fight him and not Queen.

Yall need to get in more fights
"Willing" he's not "willing" to fight anybody. They chased him down and attacked him. He ran away from Zoro.

True, but Sanji still got up after scrapes, and his statement indicates that he fought both of them.

And he folded instantly. He even said that fighting both of them is hard.
You can't scale from pure offscreen with no supports. He lost.

They'd scale for Marco calling them tough.

Marco called them tough cause they couldn't stay down, something we note as stamina and dura, not just one

Did that shockwave hit any of the Supernovas?

Zoro

His exterior body wasn't even affected...

Read Haemoptysis

I mean, even Chopper did external damage.

You're the same one who doesn't wanna scale Chopper

First it's "Queen's not trying so he backscales" now it's "even Chopper did external damage"

Shockwaves and scratches deal different types of damage

IIRC before the shockwave thing it was a "retcon".

What retcon

King bleeding only a bit is because, as chapter 1077 just showed us, Lunarians have internal durability as ridiculous as their external durability.

Don't compare robots to King. Lunarians are noted for their external dura, not their internal. The seraphims are canonically built different.

 

[Eminiteable]

Ykw else is a shockwave?

No statement of it being a shockwave

Durability

Durability is the property which guarantees the ability to withstand a certain amount of force. Withstanding force consists of the measurement of the severity of damage from attacks. This is not to be confused with endurance; while durability is the ability to withstand damage, endurance is a...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Could be, or it could just be internal damage from a shockwave attack. Considering Queen choose to note the fact it was a shockwave because it hurt him so badly I assumed that it was.

The last one isn't accepted at all to even be blood

can bypass external durability via shockwaves (Made Flame-On King bleed a little with a Blue Bird and flying knee combo)

 

[KingTempest]

No statement of it being a shockwave

Shockwaves don't need statements. Shockwaves are natural substances in nature formed by a lot of pressure, aka Hakkai

Could be, or it could just be internal damage from a shockwave attack. Considering Queen choose to note the fact it was a shockwave because it hurt him so badly I assumed that it was.

He chose to note it was a shockwave cause he didn't know what hit him.
Shit we can visibly see it's a fireball.

can bypass external durability via shockwaves (Made Flame-On King bleed a little with a Blue Bird and flying knee combo)

I will make a thread right now

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Shockwaves don't need statements. Shockwaves are natural substances in nature formed by a lot of pressure, aka Hakkai

He chose to note it was a shockwave cause he didn't know what hit him.
Shit we can visibly see it's a fireball.

I will make a thread right now

Make the thread and I'll assist you, I wanna speak my mind on that scaling now, come to think of it.

 

[Eseseso]

Bones = innards

Innards are squishy, bones aren't.

Or is Law + Kidd breaking Bigger Mom's bones not an impressive AP anymore?

Marco called them tough cause they couldn't stay down, something we note as stamina and dura, not just one

Still, Marco said it'd be tough to put him down.

Read Haemoptysis

Still, there wasn't even a real bruise where Marco hit him.

And even DJ Sanji at the end of 1022 made Hybrid Queen bleed from the mouth.

You're the same one who doesn't wanna scale Chopper

I wanna backscale him from Queen. He did more bruising to Queen's skin than Marco's actual flames did.

First it's "Queen's not trying so he backscales" now it's "even Chopper did external damage"

I'm just saying that the evidence supports Marco using a dura neg shockwave.

What retcon

I thought before the shockwave stuff, we agreed that King's bleed from Marco's shockwave and Zoro's 1022 attack was simply retconned.

Don't compare robots to King. Lunarians are noted for their external dura, not their internal. The seraphims are canonically built different.

Fair.

 

[KingTempest]

Innards are squishy, bones aren't.

Fine

Things inside your body* instead

Or is Law + Kidd breaking Bigger Mom's bones not an impressive AP anymore?

It's not AP, it's dura neg, because they shot shockwaves inside her body

Still, Marco said it'd be tough to put him down.

Still, there wasn't even a real bruise where Marco hit him.

Go send me every fire attack from Marco that leaves devastating wounds

And even DJ Sanji at the end of 1022 made Hybrid Queen bleed from the mouth.

I wanna backscale him from Queen. He did more bruising to Queen's skin than Marco's actual flames did.

It's aggravating, because people who agree with one OP share different points

You're using this argument but the people who I'm arguing with offsite keep saying "this doesn't scale because he hit him in his human part"

I'm just saying that the evidence supports Marco using a dura neg shockwave.

No, the evidence is that blood from the inside comes to play.

Any showing of people spitting blood is dura neg now?

I thought before the shockwave stuff, we agreed that King's bleed from Marco's shockwave and Zoro's 1022 attack was simply retconned.

No, we didn't, they said "these are rocks not blood" and I said "Marco hurt King validly with the knee kick"

 

[Kachon123]

Go send me every fire attack from Marco that leaves devastating wounds

He's only ever attacked with his fire against nonfodders like twice, against King and Queen.

 

[KingTempest]

He's only ever attacked with his fire against nonfodders like twice, against King and Queen.

And has he ever left serious physical wounds?

All because something lacks physical damage doesn't mean it's primarily durability negation.

Luffy doesn't leave a physical wound on Doflamingo with every punch he throws but he still made him cough blood without any durability neg, same for Katakuri

That's just Haemoptysis, not dura negation

 

[Kachon123]

And has he ever left serious physical wounds?

No, because its durability negation.