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Puella Magi Discussion Thread XI or I: The Eternal Story

That's quite a bit of exclusive premises.

Look, no matter how you slice it, Homura directly says she only took Madoka from the LoC. As a crystalized magical girl, she by extension took her powers/memories. The rest of the LoC wasn't taken.

What's the conclusion? She took most of her powers except the LoC, which is pretty consistent as Homura also lacks the issues of the LoC, like destroying the universe if she stays too long.

Trying to make this much more complex or simplifying it as 'LoC isn't UM at all' isn't accurate here.
 
like destroying the universe if she stays too long
Click to expand...

I mean, it seems like Homura’s very presence in this world is going to lead to its demise someday. She mentions that the Incubators are going to be necessary absorb all the curses that are now flowing throughout the universe due to her transformation into a Devil.

4:59 here

Mind you, the isn’t due to the lack of Madoka’s presence, because despair took form even while the Law of Cycles was in place. This is a new abundance of curses caused by her transformation that if unchecked will destroy it. Similar to how Madoka’s Law of Cycles threatened to destroy the Magia Record verse when Touka attempted to bring out its full power.

Homura seems to be offputting her despair onto the Incubators for this very reason, as we see in the post credits scene. But it doesn’t seem like something that can continue indefinitely. Sooner or later the universe will fall apart.
 
The way it was stated, it sounds more like she would have done it herself. Ofc, even if it wasn't, the scale is very different (The universe being destroyed only after all wraiths are gone) vs could only hold Homura's hand for one moment in Wraith Arc for UM.

Although what you pointed out about the curses is true, only issue being that would be a very different methodology.
 
In that case you could say it’s because the Law of Cycles is suppressed.

Whether it be because Homura is consciously reigning it in, or because all the curses Homura spread counteract its effects.

Like, it’s kind of ridiculous that Homura, who seems to be more filled with curses than Ultimate Gretchen, wouldn’t destroy the universe outright just from her existence alone.

That’d actually be much easier to swallow if she used the Law of Cycles to counteract some of this, and used the Incubators to deal with the remaining amount to allow her to stay in this world without destroying it.
 
Or Homura isn't lying about only taking Madoka.

That's because she's not with more curses, but an entirely different thing together.

Which again works, but notice how you had to write down three assumptions in the last post alone to make that work.
 
I mean, it’s not a baseless assumption. We see Homura’s Soul Gem filled with curses, and then with love. Soul Gem breaks, its contents spread across and entirely consume the universe. Next scene, Homura mentions how the universe is filled with curses that need to be dealt with somehow. When we had a universe/multiverse worth of curses with Ultimate Gretchen that literally was going to destroy the universe unless Madoka intervened, as Kyubey mentioned.

Like, this is a completely logical conclusion to make from the events we see unfold on the screen, and the context given by the characters and past events. Why wouldn’t it be?

At times when interpreting text and media we have to use context clues to try and understand certain things, because a direct and easily digestible answer isn’t given. Sometimes these assumptions will turn out wrong, but that’s the nature of all interpretable information. We still should try and make educated guesses about what they mean.

Like, the Clara Dolls and Familiars of the Nutcracker Witch are still present within the universe. So it should be reasonable to claim that Homura still has access to her Witch powers.
 
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Guys I have a question,why AoC's soul absorption is passive?It uses hair tentacles to touch others and drain soul if I remember correctly,and why her life drain works on undead paired with a resistance to life absorption? :unsure:
 
It has to touch absorb but it's always on which is why it's passive, and magical girls resist witches life absorption
 
Delta
Yeah, I think AoC only drained Kyoko when it came to magical girls, but there were countless other people who were also drained.

Leaf
I agree it's not baseless, I'm just continuing to point out it's not proven. We can't add theories or the like to the page.
 
Then let’s just go back to the Isabeau, since I feel like that point was dropped without resolution

Here all the comparisons I can make between the two:

1. The only Magical Girls canonically (Sayaka in Different Story apparently doesn’t count), to be turned back into humans AFTER they had turned into Witches. As Ultimate Madoka had before this point never done such a feat. She always went back to the point before they became a Witch to turn them back to the normal.

2. Following this, they seemed to have a marked shift in personality as noted by those around them, like Corbeau no longer seeing Isabeau as her mother because of this.

3. Their presence in the world seems to allow familiars to exist outside of Barriers. This is also something Walpurgisnight is capable of as well, adding further credence to the idea that this is just a common trait among very powerful Witches.

4. Their human bodies were described as shells. I know you say that’s different because Isabeau’s is described as an empty shell. But for all intents and purposes, it’s the same concept. The person, the soul, the very essence of their being within their body had been transformed into a Witch. The only difference was that Homura’s Witch was trapped inside her Soul Gem/Body, while Isabeau’s had broken free. In either case though, they no longer housed the person they once were.
 
1. That's a backstory similarity, not a physiology characteristic. Within Tart Magica we see that happen with Lapin and Kazumi if you count the psuedo-witches.
2. In Isabeau's case, it's because her body was just empty afterward.
3. Any witch can have familiars outside their own barriers.
4. Key word here being was, by Rebellion's end Homura is back to normal just with the Dark Orb instead.
 
SomebodyData said:
Yeah, I think AoC only drained Kyoko when it came to magical girls, but there were countless other people who were also drained
Click to expand...
If AoC only drained soul of Kyoko why it can drain life energy of magical girls?I mean soul and life energy are not the same thing
 
Well in the case of a magical girl, it kinda is. The soul gem is also what gives the body its life energy, as shown by Kyoko keeping Sayaka's body from rotting.
 
SomebodyData said:
1. That's a backstory similarity, not a physiology characteristic. Within Tart Magica we see that happen with Lapin and Kazumi if you count the psuedo-witches.
2. In Isabeau's case, it's because her body was just empty afterward.
3. Any witch can have familiars outside their own barriers.
4. Key word here being was, by Rebellion's end Homura is back to normal just with the Dark Orb instead.
Click to expand...
1. I wouldn’t count Lapin, because she doesn’t seem to transform into a true witch. Something seems to happen to her before her Soul Gem would crack, because we never see it do so, and this fact is even referenced by Riz. If anything, this seems more similar to the Doppel system. I don’t know enough about pseudo-witches to comment on that unfortunately.
qSEpcgi.jpg


2. Yeah, which is what I’m arguing for. Their soul turned into that of a Witch, despite their body remaining. Which is something we haven’t seen with anyone besides these 2.
pPGv3mY.jpg


3. I’m not sure I communicated what I meant clearly. Yes, familiars cam detach from the Main Witch, but when they do so, they construct their own labyrinth to exist within the world. Homura and Isabeau allow familiars to seemingly exist outside of barriers without issue. I mentioned before how I think Homura has essentially spread an entire barrier across the universe to let this occur. So similar to what Isabeau did with France, just on a much larger scale.

4. I‘m not sure what you mean by “normal”. Like, physically, emotionally, psychologically?
 
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1. Nah, she's pretty often refered to as a witch in both Tart Magica's bio pages and in Tart Magica. Riz not being able to touch her doesn't imply anything of note.
2. Except Homura, again as shown with the Dark Orb, still has her's in a non witch form.
3. Theu can, but not necessarily. Case in point Gertrud's familiars or the Echoes or the Mirror Witch's familiars or a few of Elly's familiars, etc
4. Isabeau is pretty clearly close to braindead in her personality- so much so that even you pointed out it estranged Corbeau's relationship. Homura is just Homura but slightly more edgy and more depressed than usual.
 
1. Riz says “before her Soul Gem would have cracked”. As in, her Soul Gem under normal conditions would have cracked, but it didn’t. If her Soul Gem fully shattered, that probably would be the incident that finally ends her cycle of transformations between witch and magical girl. Being referred to as a Witch and being a Witch are two different things. Just look at Mami calling Iroha one after she released her Doppel. Besides that, she doesn‘t even have familiars, much like a Doppel.

2. Dark Orb isn’t really a Soul Gem, i.e. it doesn’t seem to house her Soul. First off, we see Homura shatter her own Soul Gem, despite this, she’s still alive. This also happens with Madoka, when her Soul Gem shatters as it collides into Earth. But both her and Madoka have transceneded the need for a Soul Gem, because their souls have literally been spread across the universe and beyond.

The production note on her earcuff makes no mention of a Soul Gem, and it even specifically mentions the gem isn’t used as a medium when Homura uses her powers. Which wouldn’t make sense if she was still a Magical Girl. However, one thing we do see on the Ear cuff is her witch name Homulilly written in Witch Runes. And the Dark Orb being described as similar in nature to a Witch.

3. Those only seem to be capable of manifesting themselves a short distance from the entrance to the barrier. That doesn’t really count in my mind.

4. The point was more that there was a change personality wise, not how severe a degree said change was. I don’t think either of their loved ones would fully recognize them as the person they once knew.
 
1. Homura's soul gem never cracked either, and we see Lapin's soul gem crack before. It's also really ridiculous to claim Lapin didn't become a witch here.
2. No Ult. Madoka still has a soul gem. UKG's birth was explicitly from her soul gem through a paradoxical future.
So then wouldn't the Production Note debunk you? The fact that it's similar to a witch means it's not an actual witch being dealt with here.
3. The Mirror Witch is literally countless/infinite barriers apart from her familiars; the Echoes are in a very different part of the city; Gertrud's familiars appeared before Gertrud was even in the city.
4. Sure, but the fact that one is significantly different than the other in degree raises doubt.
As a fan canon this would be pretty fine, I'd love to theory craft with ya here, but for an indexing site we really can't just add it.
 
Leafbladie said:
1. I wouldn’t count Lapin, because she doesn’t seem to transform into a true witch. Something seems to happen to her before her Soul Gem would crack, because we never see it do so, and this fact is even referenced by Riz. If anything, this seems more similar to the Doppel system. I don’t know enough about pseudo-witches to comment on that unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Isn't that just lapin using her magnetism manip on riz's weapon?
Leafbladie said:
2. Yeah, which is what I’m arguing for. Their soul turned into that of a Witch, despite their body remaining. Which is something we haven’t seen with anyone besides these 2.
Click to expand...
Unless i'm misunderstanding something here, sayaka left her body after becoming oktavia
 
1. We don’t? Like, I’m rereading the two times we see her become a Witch in Volumes 3 and 5, and while the Soul Gem darkens, we never see it actually break. Maybe I missed it though, show me a scan if you can.

2. Does she? Those pink gems on her white dress don’t appear to actually be Soul Gems. Also Magia Archive, which lists the Soul Gem location for all Magical Girls has no listing for Ultimate Madoka’s Soul Gem location.

Ultimate_Madoka_01.jpg


As for the production note debunking me. My argument was that the Nutcracker Witch is still inside her, a part of her, or she might altogether just still be the Nutcracker Witch, just with a human body. I don’t know the exact mechanics, but it might be good to look in that direction to try and do our best to understand it.

3. My whole point was about Familiars appearing outside of barriers altogether, as in, in the real world, plainly visible to regular people. If I remember, in the Breakpoint event, they mentioned that all the Magical Girls were all attacked in barriers, and that’s how they knew it was most likely the work of a Witch.

4. Sure, though I think you could also explain away the degree of change by the people doing it. Madoka’s karmic destiny far outweighs Lapin’s, so she’d probably be much more effective in trying to rework their Soul back to their original self, but again, it still didn’t seem to work quite right.

I’d like to theory craft with you as well. And I get that theories can’t be accepted for this site. But what I originally said was this:

“That reminds me that Akuma Homura should still in part be The Nutcracker Witch, if not still The Nutcracker Witch altogether, just having gained sentience within her old body.”

Like, I think if nothing else, all of this would be enough evidence to say the Nutcracker Witch and her tendencies still appear to be within Homura at the very least. The suicidal nature, the focus on splitting things, the familiars, etc. etc.
 
1. We see it annihilated by Melissa, like we don't see Homura's soul gem break in Rebellion either.
2. I don't have a scan on me, but I seriously doubt one is needed since you're invalidating an entire God-Tier character here.
3. The Production Note states its like a witch, at best, its something similar but it prevents it from being any of those directions.
4. The Mirror Witch familiars' description: "A Familiar that waits outside the Manor of Mirrors handing out invitations. When it spots a Magical Girl, it throws a lethal invitation letter at her. That said, it genuinely wants to invite people to the Manor." In Breakpoint, they were talking about the duplicates of magical girls attacking (Which would mean they have escaped their own barrier to the real world and then enter another witch's barrier)
5. There's a pretty big difference between acting like the Nutcracker Witch and being the Nutcracker Witch.
 
1. This is the only scene I remember with Melissa annihilating Lapin. And we don’t see anything happen to her Soul Gem directly.
9Y7kfTY.jpg


2. Ultimate Madoka HAD (past tense) a Soul Gem, and Ultimate Madoka HAS (present tense) a Soul Gem are two entirely different things. It’s been destroyed, she doesn’t need one anymore. Same thing for Homura, she shattered her own Soul Gem with her teeth because she didn’t need it anymore. If she did need it, she would have died immediately.

3. The production note is for the Ear cuff, not Homura herself. Like, it’s pretty obvious an earcuff can’t be a Witch, but it having Witch like qualities would suggest the owner does too at the very least.

4. Outside the Mirror Manor wouldn’t mean it’s outside a barrier. In fact, the only time we see that Familiar is within a barrier.


fH4IXrx.png


As for your point about Breakpoint. Yes, I understand that familiars can leave Witch Barriers. But if they travel some distance away from them, they should need to travel within their own barriers that they create. Like, we see this when Sayaka fight a familiar in episode 6. Said familiar creates their own barrier. Because they neccesitate the presence of a barrier.

5. I know that, and while I think it’s the latter case, I still think the case for the former should be acceptable for this site based on all the evidence.
 
Btw, if you can, it’s probably be best to move this to Discord so we aren’t spamming the general feed with this. I didn’t expect this to get so long, and it’d probably be better so we don’t have to argue 4 separate points at once and can focus on one point at a time until we come to some kind of agreement or understanding.
 
Leafbladie

Yeah sure, do I have you on Discord already btw?

Everyone

With the PMMM revision behind us, I do have another way to get them to Low 1-C. However, I need time for that one since it relies on a whole lot of untranslated materials. Might not even come out this year tbh, but I can reveal it has to do with the manga, the movies, and the novel.

In the meantime, we have some new upscaling rules that put our scaling in danger. Fortunately, Tier 7-B is safe thanks to the following feats that just make the upscaling unnecessary. I'll be updating the list here as we go:
Other feats I've started to think about:
What we need right now are mostly 7-A feats for Mami and the 4.5 rating girls.
 
Two (perhaps game-changing) things before I go:

PAPA (Magi Repo & Veranda of Madoka author) released this a while back. PAPA has notably spoiled a lot of things with Magi Repo for Magi Reco.

Need this translated. Could very much change both Walpurgis' durability, Homura's missiles, and by extension Mami's tiering.

Found it from Space Battles (Credit to STTGL) who translated it as:

"It is a huge size that is incomparable, such as Walpurgis Night, which boasts the size of a city.
"Oh..."
Eventually, the maximal witch who appeared by scattering the mass enough to tear the Universe is awesome."
 
Translation PV(Magia Record 0) :
On that day, I saw that time had stopped. But it did not stop because I willed it to.
It stopped by itself.
Continued by itself.
And stopped by itself again.
And thanks to that, my life has been derailed, and I have gone insane searching for the answer: “just what is the cause of this?”
Then I found them. The girls I had always been chasing. Always been looking toward. They look so... radiant.
We arrive at walpurgis night; a world set on endless repeat. But nobody remembered that one more magical girl had been there. Yet there she was—a magical girl whose very existence had simply been erased.


Look like there is a new magical girl who can activate time loop or time stop and maybe NEP type 1 due to being erased
 
So Magia Record Scene 0 + Rebellion Sequel but no season 2 for Magia Record?

My guess is that Scene 0 will attempt to fix Magia Record's issues / probably take more influence from the original script, considering the anime stopped exactly where most people believe the revisions began.
 
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Makes my theory brain turn. Since it’s showing mirrors, as if there’s some separation between Homura and Madoka, it makes me curious if it might be that Homura is visiting other universes (like in Anti Materials), but not able to directly interfere with them. She wants to save Madoka, to undo her sins, but she can’t.
 
I just glad that Uroboutcher is finally back to his comfort zone after bunch of really awful stories he made (Aldnoah Zero and Godzilla Earth Trilogy), its like PMMM was his true heart

I know there is FGO LB3 but still
 
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