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A Quick PMMM Downgrade

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I haven't read much of this thread or the last one, but looking at the justification on the profile and SD's OP, idk why this would be Low 1-C.
 
Not sure if you’re still on the “records are metaphors” point, but I think it’s a bit silly to just dismiss them as metaphorical. The game’s literally called Magia Record, and this is the only instance where the concept of “records” come up.

Data’s point about them not showing up again outside of the story is also a bit misleading to me, because there’s very little of Ultimate Madoka herself in Magia Record. We have 1 event where they do show up, and her MSS where they aren’t mentioned, and that’s it IIRC.

i honestly don’t have too much stake in this, I’m fine with Madoka at 1-C or 2-A, but wanted to at least mention this.
 
Beast_Zero_Gudako said:
The content is 3 dimensional space + 1 Dimensional time.

Unless you want to assume universe doesn't have time flowing in it.
Click to expand...
If it's played that implies time flowing, which would be playing 3-D content.
 
Yep, timelines sure are 4-D...
 
When you want to fast-forward and all you use the disc tho, the contents stay 3D bounded by 4D disc.
 
Lmao not even a day since they've been Low 1-C and this happens.
1614916634825.png
 
If the disc is metaphor then I'm pretty sure PMMM will be downgraded,higher plane stuff is not enough for low 1-C from the beginning
 
Beast

When I said scene I was referring to what was said, not visually shown.

Shadow

Okay, so we agree the context in that statement is that she transcends the universe. The issue is what you say next:

"Kyubey mentions that Madoka is no longer a member of her universe and that her existence has shifted to a higher plane. So the higher plane is of a superior nature to the universe. But since there is a 2-A multiverse present, it would have to encompass all the universes. Wait, Madoka is in fact omnipresent across every universe, so the higher plane she’s on does indeed do this"

Which is changing the context of Madoka transcending the universe and going into a higher plane into transcending the multiverse and going into a 5-D plane.

Styrm

You just wanna show off your hobby don't ya?

Leafbladie

Well, when you consider how vast the entire verse is, the fact that the records metaphor only comes up once in a fairy tale esque context is concerning: never mind that Magia Record brings up the cosmology a few more times (With Homura's event/side story and Yukika) without ever mentioning it.

Also Ult. madoka's side story also covers the cosmology but has zero reference to records.
 
SomebodyData said:
Leafbladie

Well, when you consider how vast the entire verse is, the fact that the records metaphor only comes up once in a fairy tale esque context is concerning: never mind that Magia Record brings up the cosmology a few more times (With Homura's event/side story and Yukika) without ever mentioning it.

Also Ult. madoka's side story also covers the cosmology but has zero reference to records.
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For it not coming up for Homura and Yukika, the records are only something arguably Madoka can perceive, so they’d be beyond their comprehension, and not something that would be relevant to them.

As for Madoka herself, while being able to view worlds, universe, multiverses, etc. as records, it’s not something I feel would need to be brought up frequently. Also, I forgot, Madoka does call the Magia Record verse a Record in chapter 10. So it’s not just limited to the fairy tail story, this is how Madoka perceives universes or maybe even multiverses.

Edit: 3:54:00 in this vid btw for the source on that claim:
 
Even if we want to assume that interpretation, UM's side-story makes no reference to any records, and Madoka when describing her newfound perspective to Homura at the end of the series makes no reference to records at all. If anything, seeing all universes kinda goes against UM having to hear each universe at a time as described in Hereafter.

I mean, if that's how Madoka perceived it, nearly every time Ult. Madoka would appear it kinda would have to. Especially in the aforementioned new perspective discussion with Homura.

And again, for anyone who hasn't seen the event; it is very clearly not meant to be taken literally.
 
I think I agree with the downgrade,Madoka is omniscient is so it's weird when she need to hear each universe at a time,scans from the event can't be used for low 1-C evidence
 
You could just argue in that case that Madoka is new to her powers as Ultimate Madoka, and hasn’t fully discovered how best to visualize universes to in her new form. Also, why would Madoka feel it relevant to go “don’t worry Homura, I‘ll be able to view these worlds in a record player,” sounds a bit silly doesn’t it? She doesn’t need to explain to her exactly how she does so, just let her know she can.

So again, Ultimate Madoka perceives the Magia Record universe as a record in Hereafter, and again in Chapter 10. That doesn’t mean she couldn’t change her perspective. Madoka’s bigger than the multiverse, but she can make avatars as small as 8 feet tall. She could perceive all worlds simultaneously, or maybe use a record to filter out all the noise from such a perspective.
 
I mean, she literally visualized all universes, past and future, at that point. To say that she can't best visualize it yet is absurd. Your point essentially becomes "Why would Madoka describe her perspective to Homura"... in a scene where she's describing her perspective to Homura.

An omniscient, omnipresent being doesn't need to 'filter out the other worlds'. And in Chapter 10, the record reference is immediately dropped once Ult. Madoka appears.

Even if we somehow conclude the intro to hereafter is entirely literal, its also still not Low 1-C as others pointed out in this thread.

And I have to point out here that most of your arguments are mostly hypothetical solutions and 'maybes' without evidence too, which would only really fly if this was a minor CRT and not tier jumping.
 
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SomebodyData said:
Which is changing the context of Madoka transcending the universe and going into a higher plane into transcending the multiverse and going into a 5-D plane.
Click to expand...
And what do you think is the difference between the two, exactly? Honest question here, because 2-A is effectively just an extension of Low 2-C that exists on the same level as it, and is really only a separate tier because of how insanely widespread multiverse-busting is across fiction.

So, being qualitatively superior in nature to 4-dimensional spacetime is Low 1-C, regardless if it's in relation to 1, 7, or an infinity of them. The whole idea that "Transcending a single spacetime is Low 2-C but transcending an infinite multiverse is Low 1-C" is something that we dropped a long while ago.
 
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I think one is transcending her 3-D self (as the quote immediately before it talks about it) and becoming 4-D; while the other one is trying to suggest she transcended everything and just went straight to 5-D. Nevermind the contraction of Magia Record's timeline, as a 5-D being would at that point have no issue with understanding it whereas Ult. Madoka struggles.

Not to mention, by your own standards, (At least, if I remember correctly), Madoka fails to qualify based on the Tiering System FAQ: "For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1". As the plane Madoka moves into is later revealed to be Heaven (Production Notes) and contains the magical girls that she's saved (Obviously not a completely Low 1-C verse).
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
And what do you think is the difference between the two, exactly? Honest question here, because 2-A is effectively just an extension of Low 2-C that exists on the same level as it, and is really only a separate tier because of how insanely widespread multiverse-busting is across fiction.

So, being qualitatively superior in nature to 4-dimensional spacetime is Low 1-C, regardless if it's in relation to 1, 7, or an infinity of them. The whole idea that "Transcending a single spacetime is Low 2-C but transcending an infinite multiverse is Low 1-C" is something that we dropped a long while ago.
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Because it's going from a 3-D being in a 4-D universe, to a being that presides over a 4-D multiverse. Of course that requires going to a higher plane, but that higher plane is 4-D, not 5-D.

Madoka wasn't sitting around as a god over a single timeline before she transcended that. She was a 3-D magical girl.
 
SomebodyData said:
I think one is transcending the universe (Reminder that the 4-D part came from Homura's pocket shield which is unqualifiable / also considered to just be 3D + 1 temporal dimension; so we're talking about a 3-D universe) and becoming 4-D; while the other one is trying to suggest she transcended everything and just went straight to 5-D. Nevermind the contraction of Magia Record's timeline, as a 5-D being would at that point have no issue with understanding it whereas Ult. Madoka struggles.
Click to expand...

Wouldn’t Madoka struggling also be a contradiction to her being 4D if that’s the way we are to look at it? Because the events that are happening are within 3D.

Not to mention, by your own standards, (At least, if I remember correctly), Madoka fails to qualify based on the Tiering System FAQ: "For instance, it's very common for Heaven and Hell to be defined as higher and lower planes of existence respectively in relation to the normal universe in which case, "higher" and "lower" tends to simply indicate their position in a cosmology, as opposed to any kind of existential status, which is obviously not enough for anything remotely Tier 1". As the plane Madoka moves into is later revealed to be Heaven (Production Notes) and contains the magical girls that she's saved (Obviously not a completely Low 1-C verse).
Click to expand...

I can tell this portion you’re using is cherry picked, because right below it on the Tiering System FAQ, this is what it says.

They can qualify, however, if said "higher plane" is defined as having a relationship of qualitative superiority over lower realms in one way or another, such as by perceiving them as literal fiction/unreality (or being comparatively more "real" in nature), encompassing them in an infinitesimal portion of itself, residing in a higher state of being altogether, and etc.
 
Agnaa said:
Because it's going from a 3-D being in a 4-D universe, to a being that presides over a 4-D multiverse. Of course that requires going to a higher plane, but that higher plane is 4-D, not 5-D.

Madoka wasn't sitting around as a god over a single timeline before she transcended that. She was a 3-D magical girl.
Click to expand...
This makes more sense
 
Shadow

The issue deals with the entire timeline not just the events currently occurring in Magia record.

? And since when was PMM Heaven described as any of that? Unless we use circular logic, the plane hasn't.
 
Making me find threads all the way back to 2018.

In case you forgot, It's complicated, we all originally discussed in GD V and finally implemented with Misc Revision 3 (Honestly we should go back to the old naming scheme for revision threads) is the basis behind our mind hax rating for Homulily. Basically UM = Heaven / Magical Girls saved = LoC, but simultaneously can be separate from each other. I think we mentioned a close comparison would be Trinitarianism which isn't far off considering what UM is supposed to be and the source material.
 
From what I understand, Low 1-C could still stay without using the disc record arguments.

It would depend on whether or not one should treat PM's "heaven" in which Madoka resides as a higher plane that transcends over the timelines, which might be case but Idk.

I'm neutral, but leaning towards disagreeing with the downgrades.
 
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I discussed this with Ultima on Discord. As far as I can tell, he's moved to it potentially not being Low 1-C, but wants to ask SD more details about the evidence the series provides.

(I don't know if this conversation has happened somewhere off-site.)
 
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