A Quick PMMM Downgrade

[SomebodyData]

The original thread for reference

The Magia Record Metaphor: The scans used to prove Madoka sees everything as fiction comes from the event Hereafter in Magia Record. As you may notice by skimming through the video, the actual content relating to Ultimate Madoka is only about a tenth of the event as an introduction. It's an explanation of Ult. Madoka's perspective of the Magia Record timeline, though very fairy-tail Esque narrating. To fit this narrating, they also had to change some things around, for example: nerfing the multiverse to 2-B and removing her omnipresence, having the stars 'fall asleep', or even resting her elbow on the ring of a planet; with several more examples if you'd watch the five-minute portion in the video. The point here being, the story isn't to be taken literally.

This metaphor is also never used ever again, even in-game, even in Ultimate Madoka's own side-story.

Even if it was accepted, this is not 5-D. What makes the fiction - reality feats super upgrade material is also what makes it hard to understand. Treating the verse as a record isn't what makes a character an entire seperate higher existence from them, but the idea that they're not even tangible to the other because of how much lower they are. Like the comparsion of a ripping a piece of paper for 2-Ds vs 3-Ds, the idea is misunderstood. As even the paper is still 3-D, which goes to show how hard it is to describe the gap between 2-D and 3-D.

Transcending Homura's Hammerspace: Transcending a singular 4-D hammerspace of unknown size is normally unqualifiable, at best Low 2-C. Not sure how this was proof for Low 1-C but maybe I missed something.

 

[Star_King_Demon_Lord]

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The original thread for reference

The Magia Record Metaphor: The scans used to prove Madoka sees everything as fiction comes from the event Hereafter in Magia Record. As you may notice by skimming through the video, the actual content relating to Ultimate Madoka is only about a tenth of the event as an introduction. It's an explanation of Ult. Madoka's perspective of the Magia Record timeline, though very fairy-tail Esque narrating. To fit this narrating, they also had to change some things around, for example: nerfing the multiverse to 2-B and removing her omnipresence, having the stars 'fall asleep', or even resting her elbow on the ring of a planet; with several more examples if you'd watch the five-minute portion in the video. The point here being, the story isn't to be taken literally.

This metaphor is also never used ever again, even in-game, even in Ultimate Madoka's own side-story.

Even if it was accepted, this is not 5-D. What makes the fiction - reality feats super upgrade material is also what makes it hard to understand. Treating the verse as a record isn't what makes a character an entire seperate higher existence from them, but the idea that they're not even tangible to the other because of how much lower they are. Like the comparsion of a ripping a piece of paper for 2-Ds vs 3-Ds, the idea is misunderstood. As even the paper is still 3-D, which goes to show how hard it is to describe the gap between 2-D and 3-D.

Transcending Homura's Hammerspace: Transcending a singular 4-D hammerspace of unknown size is normally unqualifiable, at best Low 2-C. Not sure how this was proof for Low 1-C but maybe I missed something.

I am sorry for not understanding...

But whst tier are you downgrading too?

Is it being downgraded too 2-B due to recent retcons or something???

 

[Star_King_Demon_Lord]

Is it being downgraded too 2-B due to recent retcons or something???

Oh No...

 

[Alphaapexnep00]

I

 

[deonment]

Is it being downgraded too 2-B due to recent retcons or something???

no sd is not saying that

 

[SomebodyData]

No, just downgrading them back to what they were a day ago, before the recent upgrades.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Alright, I see some problems here.

The original thread for reference

The Magia Record Metaphor: The scans used to prove Madoka sees everything as fiction comes from the event Hereafter in Magia Record. As you may notice by skimming through the video, the actual content relating to Ultimate Madoka is only about a tenth of the event as an introduction. It's an explanation of Ult. Madoka's perspective of the Magia Record timeline, though very fairy-tail Esque narrating. To fit this narrating, they also had to change some things around, for example: nerfing the multiverse to 2-B and removing her omnipresence, having the stars 'fall asleep', or even resting her elbow on the ring of a planet; with several more examples if you'd watch the five-minute portion in the video. The point here being, the story isn't to be taken literally.

This metaphor is also never used ever again, even in-game, even in Ultimate Madoka's own side-story.

When you say the multiverse was nerfed to 2-B, that’s not the case. It mentions countless records, which by itself would be a 2-B statement, but the multiverse has been already stated to be infinite. An infinite number is countless, the reverse is what doesn’t necessarily apply. There is no nerfing of the multiverse here. She is also still cited to be omnipresent even in the video you linked.

Even if it was accepted, this is not 5-D. What makes the fiction - reality feats super upgrade material is also what makes it hard to understand. Treating the verse as a record isn't what makes a character an entire seperate higher existence from them, but the idea that they're not even tangible to the other because of how much lower they are. Like the comparsion of a ripping a piece of paper for 2-Ds vs 3-Ds, the idea is misunderstood. As even the paper is still 3-D, which goes to show how hard it is to describe the gap between 2-D and 3-D.

Right, reality-fiction interaction alone doesn’t imply higher-dimensionality, but in Madoka’s case her existence is on a higher plane beyond the multiverse, plus she is capable of perceiving universes that have once existed and those that have yet to exist. That is beyond the scope of viewing currently existing universes, all being Low 2-C constructs each. This puts Madoka as being on a superior order beyond conventional 4D existence, which supports the notion that she is 5D.

Transcending Homura's Hammerspace: Transcending a singular 4-D hammerspace of unknown size is normally unqualifiable, at best Low 2-C. Not sure how this was proof for Low 1-C but maybe I missed something.

That in particular I agree wasn’t the strongest piece of evidence to prove Low 1-C in the OP.

 

[Delta333]

I agree that Transcending Homura's Hammerspace is not enough for 5-D,that's why I never mentioned to it in the previous thread,however I don't think the record thing is metaphor,countless universes is not really contradicted to infinite universes since countless is infinite in several special case,and Pokémon 2-A blog also talked about it

 

[Lormac_CC]

Following

 

[Ned_the_outer_god]

Following

 

[SomebodyData]

Shadow

You miss the point here Shadow, I'm pointing out that this is clearly not meant to be literal. Hence why alongside the example is stuff like 'stars sleeping' and the like. The scan you cite is omniscience not omnipresence and even states she just sits around in heaven, which goes again to further boster the idea that this isn't literal.

You also miss the point here, I'm stating that the records are still in the same plane of existence as UM (Similar to the paper to a 3-D character example we often use) and they both aren't actually a 2-D to 3-D comparison.

 

[Cloozuma]

Following, tho I will try to reply once I'm done with the anime

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Shadow

You miss the point here Shadow, I'm pointing out that this is clearly not meant to be literal. Hence why alongside the example is stuff like 'stars sleeping' and the like. The scan you cite is omniscience not omnipresence and even states she just sits around in heaven, which goes again to further boster the idea that this isn't literal.

You also miss the point here, I'm stating that the records are still in the same plane of existence as UM (Similar to the paper to a 3-D character example we often use) and they both aren't actually a 2-D to 3-D comparison.

I get the stuff regarding the records is supposed to largely be meant figuratively, but while you’re focused on that, the records aren’t even the main reason why Madoka is 5D.

 

[Lormac_CC]

Well the records did support the higher plain stuff

 

[SomebodyData]

Both the OP of the thread and the Madoka's page cite it as the main reason (As its the only thing that changed).

If not that, what was the main reason behind the upgrade?

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Both the OP of the thread and the Madoka's page cite it as the main reason (As its the only thing that changed).

If not that, what was the main reason behind the upgrade?

Quote by Ultima: "Madoka ascending to a higher plane of existence being a 4-D feat doesn't seem to make much sense, given how, immediately after this statement, she states that she can see every universe that exists, existed, or will ever exist. Past and future are themselves just different points lined up along a single time axis, so an existence that encompasses multiple of those across a larger flow of time would have to be of a higher temporal dimension, or something functionally akin to one, instead of being constrained to 4-dimensional space."

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Both the OP of the thread and the Madoka's page cite it as the main reason (As its the only thing that changed).

If not that, what was the main reason behind the upgrade?

It was put in as a supporting reason when performing the upgrades, but the main reason is that Madoka exists on a higher plane that transcends the multiverse. The OP did fail to mention that so I get the confusion.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

It was put in as a supporting reason when performing the upgrades, but the main reason is that Madoka exists on a higher plane that transcends the multiverse. The OP did fail to mention that so I get the confusion.

Well, the one who put the justification in Madoka's profile was you, so I blame you

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Well, the one who put the justification in Madoka's profile was you, so I blame you

The higher plane stuff was already on the profile, and you wouldn’t have thought to use it if I didn’t mention it. You’re welcome.

 

[SomebodyData]

There are two issues if we assume it's the main reasoning: Ultima just calls it evidence in addition to what was already and the record analogy (Which isn't literal) was used as part of the conclusion.

That's also 'only' really good omnipresence when taken at face value.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

There are two issues if we assume it's the main reasoning: Ultima just calls it evidence in addition to what was already and the record analogy (Which isn't literal) was used as part of the conclusion.

That's also 'only' really good omnipresence when taken at face value.

Are you still referring to the records as being the main reason in this post?

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Following and agree with Low 1-C still FRA

 

[SomebodyData]

No, just used as part of the reasoning Ultima gave

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

No, just used as part of the reasoning Ultima gave

Alright, forget about the records for a second. What about Madoka being Low 1-C because she’s on a higher plane beyond the multiverse? Do you think there’s issues with that?

 

[Jinsye]

I'll just put this here because I'm 100% sure Ultima is too lazy to comment

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, mostly that Akemi-Ya exists and a higher plane beyond the multiverse doesn't mean higher dimension; which Ultima concludes after pointing out the omnipresence part we mentioned.

It also doesn't help the transcendence was only in reference to the universe, so that plane is still 4-D.

Ultima is clearly a PMMM wanker, so why does that screenshot matter.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Ultima's such a PMMM wanker that he only watched 4 episodes of the anime. deadass sinner.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yeah, mostly that Akemi-Ya exists and a higher plane beyond the multiverse doesn't mean higher dimension; which Ultima concludes after pointing out the omnipresence part we mentioned.

It also doesn't help the transcendence was only in reference to the universe, so that plane is still 4-D.

Ultima is clearly a PMMM wanker, so why does that screenshot matter.

Ultima was referring to how Madoka’s omnipresence encompasses universes that currently don’t exist (either they no longer exist or are yet to have been born).

Madoka couldn’t have only transcended the universe as then she would be just Low 2-C. She even mentions seeing all the universes in that same scan so the plane would have to be transcending the entire multiverse.

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah, which can also just be really good omnipresence rather than a tier upgrade.

No, she would be 4-D. Whether she was low 2-C thru 2-A would dependent on her feats. Hence why she was initially 2-C way back. Seeing all universes =/= becoming 5-D and the scan outright says the universe, it's hard to try to change its context with that problem there.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Yeah, which can also just be really good omnipresence rather than a tier upgrade.

No, she would be 4-D. Whether she was low 2-C thru 2-A would dependent on her feats. Hence why she was initially 2-C way back. Seeing all universes =/= becoming 5-D and the scan outright says the universe, it's hard to try to change its context with that problem there.

The part when it says "universe" only talks about Madoka not being a member of the universe. Then after the statement of "Higher Place", it's clearly stated that Madoka can see all the universes akin someone looking down from high-end.

You might have point if Madoka doesn't have the "shifted to a higher plane" statement.

 

[SomebodyData]

Unfortunately, the statement about being a higher existence is still part of the same scene, so its clearly both in the same context by Kyubey. Whereas Madoka's statements occur after she reunites with Homura temporarily.

Like above, it's in the same scene. It's not like she transcended the universe and then transcended the multiverse a few moments later.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Unfortunately, the statement about being a higher existence is still part of the same scene, so its clearly both in the same context by Kyubey. Whereas Madoka's statements occur after she reunites with Homura temporarily.

Like above, it's in the same scene. It's not like she transcended the universe and then transcended the multiverse a few moments later.

I mean, if we go by visual representation, PMMM Multiverse will only be 2-C since "map" that were shown in Homura Tamura only showed us about less than a hundred branches of Universe.

 

[AkumaNoHissatsu]

The original thread for reference

The Magia Record Metaphor: The scans used to prove Madoka sees everything as fiction comes from the event Hereafter in Magia Record. As you may notice by skimming through the video, the actual content relating to Ultimate Madoka is only about a tenth of the event as an introduction. It's an explanation of Ult. Madoka's perspective of the Magia Record timeline, though very fairy-tail Esque narrating. To fit this narrating, they also had to change some things around, for example: nerfing the multiverse to 2-B and removing her omnipresence, having the stars 'fall asleep', or even resting her elbow on the ring of a planet; with several more examples if you'd watch the five-minute portion in the video. The point here being, the story isn't to be taken literally.

This metaphor is also never used ever again, even in-game, even in Ultimate Madoka's own side-story.

Even if it was accepted, this is not 5-D. What makes the fiction - reality feats super upgrade material is also what makes it hard to understand. Treating the verse as a record isn't what makes a character an entire seperate higher existence from them, but the idea that they're not even tangible to the other because of how much lower they are. Like the comparsion of a ripping a piece of paper for 2-Ds vs 3-Ds, the idea is misunderstood. As even the paper is still 3-D, which goes to show how hard it is to describe the gap between 2-D and 3-D.

Transcending Homura's Hammerspace: Transcending a singular 4-D hammerspace of unknown size is normally unqualifiable, at best Low 2-C. Not sure how this was proof for Low 1-C but maybe I missed something.

Let's goooo

 

[Star_King_Demon_Lord]

I'll just put this here because I'm 100% sure Ultima is too lazy to comment

Looks like the CRT is denied

 

[Cloozuma]

A big oof, I see

 

[QuasiYuri]

Agree with the OP for last thread's reasons.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Missed the last thread, but having read that one and this one, I believe SD makes sense here.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Yeah, which can also just be really good omnipresence rather than a tier upgrade.

No, she would be 4-D. Whether she was low 2-C thru 2-A would dependent on her feats. Hence why she was initially 2-C way back. Seeing all universes =/= becoming 5-D and the scan outright says the universe, it's hard to try to change its context with that problem there.

No need to change the context, because being 5D does require transcending the universe. Seeing all universes obviously isn’t 5D, but being on a superior order to them is. For reference, here is what the Tiering System FAQ says. I’ll highlight the following part.

However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is outright superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

Now does this apply to Madoka? Well again, this is the scan being used. Kyubey mentions that Madoka is no longer a member of her universe and that her existence has shifted to a higher plane. So the higher plane is of a superior nature to the universe. But since there is a 2-A multiverse present, it would have to encompass all the universes. Wait, Madoka is in fact omnipresent across every universe, so the higher plane she’s on does indeed do this.

You also mentioned that it could just be a really good omnipresence that Madoka can encompass universes that don’t even currently exist. Well, you are correct that it’s a really good omnipresence since it doesn’t matter how many additional universes get stacked, it won’t ever reach the plane Madoka is on. Their nature as 4D constructs are outright inferior. Madoka is therefore 5D.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Thing is that, from what I got, she doesen't perceive the 4D as literally disks. The 4D in this case is what is the content of these disks, and thus making the multiverse as a whole CD/Radio drama (explained also here) for her.