Puella Magi Discussion Thread XI or I: The Eternal Story

[Delta333]

Because she kept going off-script earlier. She physically appears in their panel- it's significantly different (Ie you would also have to give Tamura 5-D physiology).

Going off script is hax,and appearing in their books physically instead of existing in the same reality as them means that she is fictional character from their perspective

You need this part:

"Characters who can affect, create and/or destroy the entirety of spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal mode"

I doubt Tamura Magica can prove they can manipulate or destroy the multiverse, much less a 5-D space.

Yeah I have the affect part since all events in that chapter are manipulated by Madoka

 

[Delta333]

This guy is same case

 

[SomebodyData]

Going off script is hax,and appearing in their books physically instead of existing in the same reality as them means that she is fictional character from their perspective

Yeah I have the affect part since all events in that chapter are manipulated by Madoka

Going off script is the plot manip resist mentioned earlier, physically appearing in their reality on the final panel shows that's not true / or more like how Nemu views Uwasa.

"I doubt Tamura Magica can prove they can manipulate or destroy the multiverse, much less a 5-D space."

This guy is same case

"His True Form views all of the Mashima Universe as mere fiction and part of his imagination, which includes Happy's Heroic Adventure, which contains an infinite amount of dimensions and universes"

"His power can extend to multiple different multiverses simultaneously"

 

[Delta333]

Going off script is the plot manip resist mentioned earlier, physically appearing in their reality on the final panel shows that's not true / or more like how Nemu views Uwasa.

"I doubt Tamura Magica can prove they can manipulate or destroy the multiverse, much less a 5-D space."

Tamura didn't completely go outside the panel tho,and I'm pretty sure Nemu can't view entire timeline as fiction.But even if Tamura can do that,it only means she has some kinds of limited 5-D interaction (like I said lower D being interacting with higher D is not something new) and it will not scale to any other magical girls if they don't show any same feat like that

Even if Madoka in that chapter can't affect entire 5-D reality,she still has 5-D existence but unlike that version UM is omnipresent and encompasses everything,which means she will encompass 5-D reality that those two reside

"His True Form views all of the Mashima Universe as mere fiction and part of his imagination, which includes Happy's Heroic Adventure, which contains an infinite amount of dimensions and universes"

"His power can extend to multiple different multiverses simultaneously"

Multiverse or not is not matter since perceiving 4-D structure (it can be either low 2-C or 2-A) is the main point here

 

[SomebodyData]

Tamura didn't completely go outside the panel tho,and I'm pretty sure Nemu can't view entire timeline as fiction.But even if Tamura can do that,it only means she has some kinds of limited 5-D interaction (like I said lower D being interacting with higher D is not something new) and it will not scale to any other magical girls if they don't show any same feat like that

Still counts. I brought up Nemu since she sees the Uwasa as fictional but doesn't transcend them entirely (Even if she has complete control over them), which I'm pretty sure is the case here. 5-D interaction is still well, 5-D interaction.

Even if Madoka in that chapter can't affect entire 5-D reality,she still has 5-D existence but unlike that version UM is omnipresent and encompasses everything,which means she will encompass 5-D reality that those two reside

She encompasses the multiverse, but isn't stated to encompass that 5-D reality. She'd still be 2-A.

Multiverse or not is not matter since perceiving 4-D structure (it can be either low 2-C or 2-A) is the main point here

Pretty big difference here being that means Mami and Madoka don't perceive the other timelines as fiction. How does seeing one timeline as fiction but not the rest equal low 1-C?

I'd compare it more to Deadpool and how he knows everything is fiction rather than these random characters being low 1-C.

 

[Delta333]

Still counts. I brought up Nemu since she sees the Uwasa as fictional but doesn't transcend them entirely (Even if she has complete control over them), which I'm pretty sure is the case here. 5-D interaction is still well, 5-D interaction.

Nemu exists in the same reality with the rest,unlike Mami and Madoka exists outside

She encompasses the multiverse, but isn't stated to encompass that 5-D reality. She'd still be 2-A.

She states that she exists everywhere

Pretty big difference here being that means Mami and Madoka don't perceive the other timelines as fiction. How does seeing one timeline as fiction but not the rest equal low 1-C?

I'd compare it more to Deadpool and how he knows everything is fiction rather than these random characters being low 1-C.

That's how tiering system works,by your logic only verse with more than one universe can qualify for tier 1,and they actually can see the rest universes as fiction if they are the one who wrote the plot

You do realize that Deadpool case is Breaking the Fourth Wall right?How can it even be an example?

 

[SomebodyData]

Nemu exists in the same reality as the rest, unlike Mami and Madoka exists outside.

They're still part of that timeline, as otherwise, Homura would need to use her shield to actually get there.

She states that she exists everywhere

NLF and her omnipresence is dependent on the presence of witches / wraiths, according to Wraith Arc.

That's how tiering system works,by your logic only verse with more than one universe can qualify for tier 1,and they actually can see the rest universes as fiction if they are the one who wrote the plot

No? Just the universes with feats.

No, only that universe has the entire panel thing going on with Tamura.

You do realize that Deadpool case is Breaking the Fourth Wall right?How can it even be an example?

Most fiction-reality feats have some fourth walling breaking? Like The One Above All For Example.

There is a very big difference between seeing reality as fiction and being able to treat all of it as fiction.

 

[Delta333]

They're still part of that timeline, as otherwise, Homura would need to use her shield to actually get there.

Because Tamura is capable of affecting with 5-D being,it's not an anti feat for 5-D Madoka and Mami at all,throughout that chapter there is not a single scene about Mami and Madoka appearing inside there,they read book about that timeline in literal sense

NLF and her omnipresence is dependent on the presence of witches / wraiths, according to Wraith Arc.

I don't remember any part of WA said that she only exists in place which is on the presence of witches / wraiths,but even if that's true then Madoka can still manifest in 5-D because Mami and Madoka are magical girls so theoretically their witches versions will appear in the future

No? Just the universes with feats.

No, only that universe has the entire panel thing going on with Tamura.

If you have any solid reason why perceiving 4-D structure as fiction is not transcendence pls tell me

Most fiction-reality feats have some fourth walling breaking? Like The One Above All For Example.

There is a very big difference between seeing reality as fiction and being able to treat all of it as fiction.

Most fiction-reality feats having some fourth walling breaking doesn't mean same as this case,characters here don't even acknowledge the existence of readers

 

[SomebodyData]

Because Tamura is capable of affecting with 5-D being,it's not an anti feat for 5-D Madoka and Mami at all,throughout that chapter there is not a single scene about Mami and Madoka appearing inside there,they read book about that timeline in literal sense

I don't remember any part of WA said that she only exists in place which is on the presence of witches / wraiths,but even if that's true then Madoka can still manifest in 5-D because Mami and Madoka are magical girls so theoretically their witches versions will appear in the future

If you have any solid reason why perceiving 4-D structure as fiction is not transcendence pls tell me

Most fiction-reality feats having some fourth walling breaking doesn't mean same as this case,characters here don't even acknowledge the existence of readers

It's an anti-feat if Tamura hasn't been shown affecting 5-D beings before.

Neither Mami or Madoka are shown to be magical girls in this realm.

Because they're still part of said 4-D structure/timeline.

The chapter literally begins with a fourth wall break in Tamura removing the 1P sign that the author left to make sure no one gets confused on who the real Tamura. Most of the timeline is Tamura just talking to the reader when she's not talking to the narrators.

 

[Delta333]

It's an anti-feat if Tamura hasn't been shown affecting 5-D beings before.

Neither Mami or Madoka are shown to be magical girls in this realm.

Because they're still part of said 4-D structure/timeline.

The chapter literally begins with a fourth wall break in Tamura removing the 1P sign that the author left to make sure no one gets confused on who the real Tamura. Most of the timeline is Tamura just talking to the reader when she's not talking to the narrators.

So that means she has shown it for the first time

Doesn't mean they are not mg?But even if they are not then what part in WA says that UM can only exist in place where Wraiths or Witches exist?

If you find any scene about they appearing in said timeline pls show me,Tamura even asked "But where was Madoka during all this?"

When I say it's not a fourth wall break feat,I mean Mami and Madoka in that chapter,not Tamura

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Bonjour

 

[SomebodyData]

So that means she has shown it for the first time

Doesn't mean they are not mg?But even if they are not then what part in WA says that UM can only exist in place where Wraiths or Witches exist?

If you find any scene about they appearing in said timeline pls show me,Tamura even asked "But where was Madoka during all this?"

When I say it's not a fourth wall break feat,I mean Mami and Madoka in that chapter,not Tamura

It's an anti-feat unless there is precedence in Tamura's case. We would treat it as Tamura's first showing if the feat was more sturdy or absolute (Like them showing control over the entirety of the multiverse for example)

You have to first prove their MGs, and considering they don't transform to use their magic it's unlikely (Not to mention Kyubey's entire goal of reversing entropy doesn't work if he's already Low 1-C too). UM's presence is bound to the existence of witches according to Wraith Madoka. Though by burden of proof, shouldn't you have proved that Madoka exists everywhere first?

Do you not count the final page? The panel just changes its perspective to Madoka and Mami.

Mami was the narrator talking to the audience? Or do you mean something else?

Bonjour

Bonjour

 

[Delta333]

It's an anti-feat unless there is precedence in Tamura's case. We would treat it as Tamura's first showing if the feat was more sturdy or absolute (Like them showing control over the entirety of the multiverse for example)

5-D interaction is not really related to controlling over multiverse tbh

You have to first prove their MGs, and considering they don't transform to use their magic it's unlikely (Not to mention Kyubey's entire goal of reversing entropy doesn't work if he's already Low 1-C too). UM's presence is bound to the existence of witches according to Wraith Madoka. Though by burden of proof, shouldn't you have proved that Madoka exists everywhere first?

Your scan doesn't say that she only exists in place where Witches exist tho,otherwise she would not exist in World of Wraiths or Heaven.She states that she exists everywhere in final episode?

Do you not count the final page? The panel just changes its perspective to Madoka and Mami.

Mami was the narrator talking to the audience? Or do you mean something else?

The link doesn't work but I believe it's plot manip instead of breaking the fourth wall since characters can alter reality while existing outside it instead of simply seeing it as fiction

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Magia Report has far more credibility in Reality-Fiction thing than that chapter of Homura Tamura. Uwasa of FM Kamihama even has feat of affecting the real Magia Record universe which the cast from Magia Report treats it as mere mobile game.

But even after that, I'm not sure if they are qualified.

 

[Delta333]

I have thought about that chapther of MagiRepo before but not even sure if it's actually canon to begin with,more like just gag reel

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I have thought about that chapther of MagiRepo before but not even sure if it's actually canon to begin with,more like just gag reel

Why would it be non-canon? It literally shown to be connected with Magia Record timeline, the same as Homura Tamura with the main Madoka Magica timeline.

 

[Delta333]

Why would it be non-canon? It literally shown to be connected with Magia Record timeline, the same as Homura Tamura with the main Madoka Magica timeline.

I don't say I'm sure that it's non canon tho since character from MagiRepo still appears when UM uses her doppel in MagiReco,but I have searched many times on internet and can't find any confirmation about it,tbh the design of characters and the plot being comedy makes me doubt it

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I don't say I'm sure that it's non canon tho since character from MagiRepo still appears when UM uses her doppel in MagiReco,but I have searched many times on internet and can't find any confirmation about it,tbh the design of characters and the plot being comedy makes me doubt it

Design is irrelevant in determining whether a series being canon or not. And Homura Tamura is also mostly comedic series and yet we takes the lore seriously. Why would Magia Report be any different?

 

[Delta333]

Design is irrelevant in determining whether a series being canon or not. And Homura Tamura is also mostly comedic series and yet we takes the lore seriously. Why would Magia Report be any different?

Tamura is realeased via Manga Time Kirara Magica

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Tamura is realeased via Manga Time Kirara Magica

Magia Report has its own event twice, what is your point?

 

[Delta333]

Magia Report has its own event twice, what is your point?

Why are events always canon?Also I have checked the main page and can't find any information about it being canon tho.But anyways like I have said I will not certainly say that it's non canon,just wondering

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Because they are intertwined with the main source duh. The only possible exception are the collaboration events, the ones with Monogatari series and Nanoha. Though in Monogatari case, the characters that are being featured in the game are completely different person with different lore from the main source. So, they should be considered canon in Magia Record, but not in Monogatari series.

 

[SomebodyData]

5-D interaction is not really related to controlling over multiverse tbh

Your scan doesn't say that she only exists in place where Witches exist tho,otherwise she would not exist in World of Wraiths or Heaven.She states that she exists everywhere in final episode?

The link doesn't work but I believe it's plot manip instead of breaking the fourth wall since characters can alter reality while existing outside it instead of simply seeing it as fiction

Well I was using it more of an anti-feat against them being 5-D. The multiverse control statement was just part of the requirement for Low 1-C which the Mink Timeline doesn't pass either.

(Gonna number it to avoid confusion) 1- She is Heaven, 2- She exists in the World of Wraiths because she created it, 3- she states she exists everywhere in the multiverse, not a 5-D dimension, 4- also disproved by Magia Record.

Oof. Well the scan just concludes with Mami and Madoka revealing they wrote the story to the audience. It's both plot manip and fourth wall breaking, as they control the plot but also reveal their hand to the audience.

 

[Delta333]

Well I was using it more of an anti-feat against them being 5-D. The multiverse control statement was just part of the requirement for Low 1-C which the Mink Timeline doesn't pass either.

Not really understand this part tbh

(Gonna number it to avoid confusion) 1- She is Heaven, 2- She exists in the World of Wraiths because she created it, 3- she states she exists everywhere in the multiverse, not a 5-D dimension, 4- also disproved by Magia Record.

None of what you have said prove that she only exists in place where only witches exist tho,especially existing in World of Wraiths already debunked that.And I don't know wdym by saying 5-D is disproved by MagiReco

Oof. Well the scan just concludes with Mami and Madoka revealing they wrote the story to the audience. It's both plot manip and fourth wall breaking, as they control the plot but also reveal their hand to the audience.

So they can perceive 4-D reality as fiction and control it while also exist outside said reality,which alone is enough for 5-D physiology,the rest is redundant because none of your example is the same case

 

[SomebodyData]

Not really understand this part tbh

Basically, its two different arguments that aren't supposed to be together.

Realm that 'normal' people can interact with = anti-feat.

Low 1-C standards being higher than what Mink Timeline Characters = Prevents the feat from being Low 1-C.

None of what you have said prove that she only exists in place where only witches exist tho, especially existing in World of Wraiths already debunked that. And I don't know wdym by saying 5-D is disproved by MagiReco

Magi Reco disproves her complete omnipresence.

So they can perceive 4-D reality as fiction and control it while also exist outside said reality,which alone is enough for 5-D physiology,the rest is redundant because none of your example is the same case

I'm not actually sure where you got perceiving 4-D reality as fiction tbh. All they did was basically control the plot around Kyoko and Sayaka. They didn't mess with the timeline as far as I'm aware. They also pretty plainly exist within the timeline, hence the interaction with Tamura without her shield / the fact that Tamura's TV panel or whatever still covered them as well.

 

[Delta333]

Basically, its two different arguments that aren't supposed to be together.

Realm that 'normal' people can interact with = anti-feat.

Low 1-C standards being higher than what Mink Timeline Characters = Prevents the feat from being Low 1-C.

Tamura didn't completely interact with low 1-C realm tho,also not all people can do that and magical girl is not even "normal" being,not even close to be an anti feat tbh,many characters from different series can interact with higher D being as well and their tier ratings remain unchanged

Low 1-C standard says that perceiving 4-D=5-D existence

Magi Reco disproves her complete omnipresence.

Because that's simply an exception alongside with Homulily's maze?Do we need to prove that she exists in every single universe just because of that anti feat?I mean if we need then her omnipresence on her profile should be changed or nuked completely

 

[SomebodyData]

Tamura didn't completely interact with low 1-C realm tho,also not all people can do that and magical girl is not even "normal" being,not even close to be an anti feat tbh,many characters from different series can interact with higher D being as well and their tier ratings remain unchanged

Being a tier 5 magical girl doesn't change it from being an anti-feat.

I would assume those examples wouldn't have characters just barge in without any power boosts or explanations?

Low 1-C standard says that perceiving 4-D=5-D existence

Because that's simply an exception alongside with Homulily's maze?Do we need to prove that she exists in every single universe just because of that anti feat?I mean if we need then her omnipresence on her profile should be changed or nuked completely

It's not just that, which is the issue. You also have to have the multiverse feat I quoted earlier for example.

No, you just need to prove she exists in that realm / that realm is 5-D (Again, it's clearly part of the timeline). Her omnipresence is explicitly limited to the two multiverses, in her reasoning (Exists as a concept throughout the entire Puella Magi multiverse. Can also manifest outside the timelines and in the nonexistent multiverse), so no you don't have to edit anything.

But if you really don't want to take my word on it, you can make a Q & A or a CRT.

 

[Delta333]

Being a tier 5 magical girl doesn't change it from being an anti-feat.

I would assume those examples wouldn't have characters just barge in without any power boosts or explanations?

Hulk can have sex with low 1-A being

No, you just need to prove she exists in that realm / that realm is 5-D (Again, it's clearly part of the timeline). Her omnipresence is explicitly limited to the two multiverses, in her reasoning (Exists as a concept throughout the entire Puella Magi multiverse. Can also manifest outside the timelines and in the nonexistent multiverse), so no you don't have to edit anything.

And universe in MagiReco has witches but UM can't manifest there,and you said by yourself that she is not completely omnipresent

But if you really don't want to take my word on it, you can make a Q & A or a CRT.

I want to make a CRT but pretty sure you will reply there so debating here is not really different

 

[SomebodyData]

Hulk can have sex with low 1-A being

You think that Hulk clapping those cheeks isn't an anti-feat? Unlike the Mink Timeline they actually have the multiversal (In this case, far beyond that) feats to back it up, hence why it was disregarded.

And universe in MagiReco has witches but UM can't manifest there,and you said by yourself that she is not completely omnipresent

Yes. Hence why the page claims she's Omnipresent in 2 multiverses and not NLF it to everything. Scale matters in regards to Omnipresence, for example: Heart of the Universe Thanos is Omnipresent within a universe, although the verse clearly contains far more than that.

I want to make a CRT but pretty sure you will reply there so debating here is not really different

I mean, maybe someone could debunk me or explain my points better. Idk, it's up to you.

 

[Delta333]

You think that Hulk clapping those cheeks isn't an anti-feat? Unlike the Mink Timeline they actually have the multiversal (In this case, far beyond that) feats to back it up, hence why it was disregarded.

Yeah it's not an anti-feat,no one gor downgraded at all (I also have many other characters that are in similar case to it kek) and look like we return back to old problem because one universe or multiverse is not matter here

Yes. Hence why the page claims she's Omnipresent in 2 multiverses and not NLF it to everything. Scale matters in regards to Omnipresence, for example: Heart of the Universe Thanos is Omnipresent within a universe, although the verse clearly contains far more than that.

Wdym main universe in Magi Reco is one of universe in two those multiverses (unless you want to say that universe is 5-D) yet UM can't enter so yeah time to nuke her omnipresence

I'm not actually sure where you got perceiving 4-D reality as fiction tbh. All they did was basically control the plot around Kyoko and Sayaka. They didn't mess with the timeline as far as I'm aware. They also pretty plainly exist within the timeline, hence the interaction with Tamura without her shield / the fact that Tamura's TV panel or whatever still covered them as well.

Idk why I forgot to reply this one,but actually you're the on who say previously that they see the timeline as fiction

Btw if Magia Report is canon then we have a hierarchy of two R-F difference,6-D confirm

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

And universe in MagiReco has witches but UM can't manifest there,and you said by yourself that she is not completely omnipresent

The hell are you talking about?

Madoka can manifests in Magia Record timeline if she want to, as was shown in "Hereafter" event and her personal story. The reason she didn't do it because she will destroy the Magia Record timeline. Even when Touka tried to siphon just little bit of Madoka's power by creating a portal, that little bit of power is slowly destroying the Magia Record timeline.

 

[Delta333]

The hell are you talking about?

Madoka can manifests in Magia Record timeline if she want to, as was shown in "Hereafter" event and her personal story. The reason she didn't do it because she will destroy the Magia Record timeline. Even when Touka tried to siphon just little bit of Madoka's power by creating a portal, that little bit of power is slowly destroying the Magia Record timeline.

???
At the beginning she doesn't even understand why the hell she can't enter the main universe,she will destroy it only if she tries to do that,please keep in mind that she is omnipresent at the moment she became goddesss,so she must passively exist in the main universe if she is perfectly omnipresent instead of actively doing that duh (and I believe this is the reason why SD told me that MagiReco disproved her complete omnipresence)

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Magia Record timeline is like an Incomplete Record to her. The context of the scan you posted above is that Madoka is unwilling to intervene with the Magia Record timeline because it might has a better conclusion than any other timelines she knew. Madoka wanted to see a timeline where she wasn't needed to intervene, where she doesn't need to destroy to create a better world.

 

[Delta333]

Magia Record timeline is like an Incomplete Record to her. The context of the scan you posted above is that Madoka is unwilling to intervene with the Magia Record timeline because it might has a better conclusion than any other timelines she knew. Madoka wanted to see a timeline where she wasn't needed to intervene, where she doesn't need to destroy to create a better world.

And none of what you said proves that she passively exists in the main universe at the beginning,which is the nature of omnipresence

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

And none of what you said proves that she passively exists in the main universe at the beginning,which is the nature of omnipresence

???

And when did I say she passively exists in Magia Record timeline? I'm just correcting what you said about Madoka cannot manifest within Magia Record timeline.

Magia Record timeline is a singularity timeline that isn't even part of the World of Witches.

 

[Delta333]

???

And when did I say she passively exists in Magia Record timeline? I'm just correcting what you said about Madoka cannot manifest within Magia Record timeline.

Magia Record timeline is a singularity timeline that isn't even part of the World of Witches.

Sorry but do you even read the conversation between me and SD???We are talking about whether or not she is omnipresent in two multiverses,if she is then she must passively exist in the main timeline

World of Witches is just the world with witches,I think you understand what does that mean

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I know you two are talking about Madoka's omnipresent, which seems to started because you thought Tamura is 5-D.

Except Magia Record timeline is literally explained as an anomaly timeline that isn't part of World of Witches, came into existence due to side effect of Homura's time magic. It is the only one timeline where Iroha become a magical girl and the trio (Ui, Touka and Nemu) still lives. The only timeline where Doppel system exists.

 

[Delta333]

If you truly follow the conversation then you will know SD said that UM is bound to witches,therefore she is omnipresent in every places where witches exist

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

If you truly follow the conversation then you will know SD said that UM is bound to witches,therefore she is omnipresent in every places where witches exist

Yes, bound by witches as long as it was part of the World of Witches, something that isn't applied to MagiReco timeline.

 

[Delta333]

Yes, bound by witches as long as it was part of the World of Witches, something that isn't applied to MagiReco timeline.

1:UM is bound to witches
2:MagiReco timeline has witches

If any scan say differently with two theses statements then pls show me