Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Pre-Retcon Molecule Man solid 1-A rating

[UnknownGodXXX]

Since LT is now accepted as solid 1-A, these characters should be as well for they are above LT.

 

[Mickey1940]

they are above LT?

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Owen being much more powerful than the abstracts including LT


Beyonder seeing the mightiest beings as microbes

Yes they are, everyone that have read Secret Wars 1 and 2 knows this as a fact.

 

[Mickey1940]

oh

wow

ok

then yeah, they should be upgraded

 

[Mickey1940]

wait

Wasn't Beyonder stated to be infinite-dimensional?

So wouldn't that be below LT?

I mean, it seems to me that Beyonder's scaling is all over the place, and that's why he's High 1B to 1A

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't they were something like LT not being 1-A at this time? Recton and stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, the LT was not established as 1-A back then. The Beyonder is most likely 1-A, but there is enough contradiction to make it seem a bit uncertain.

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Yes, the LT was not established as 1-A back then. The Beyonder is most likely 1-A, but there is enough contradiction to make it seem a bit uncertain.

That's contradictory though, you have Pre-Retcon LT as solid 1-A when the characters highly above(P-retcon MM and Beyonder) it as repeatedly proven to be so in Secret Wars 2, you keep in a uncertain level.

 

[Antvasima]

There is no pre-retcon LT profile. The replacement was simply shown as more limited than the original.

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Okay but that still doesn't change my point though, the original LT including the other Abstracts and P-Retcon-MM who was above them, was overpowered by Pre-Retcon Beyonder.

 

[Antvasima]

We can only scale from their established power levels as they were in 1985, not after the retcon took place. Sorry.

I have had this discussion over and over and over and over several dozen times in this wiki. We probably need a rule against it at this point, as I am extremely tired of dealing with it.

 

[Mickey1940]

We can only scale from their established power levels as they were in 1985, not after the retcon took place. Sorry.
I have had this discussion over and over and over and over several dozen times in this wiki. We probably need a rule against it at this point, as I am extremely tired of dealing with it.

i am incredibly confused

if Beyonder is stated to be above LT

then why can't he be solid 1A

 

[Antvasima]

Because the Living Tribunal was not 1-A back in 1985, and that is the era when the pre-retcon Beyonder existed. After that he was retconned to a far less powerful cosmic cube.

Somebody can ask the following members to give input here though. Maybe I have used faulty logic regarding this.

Kepekley23, Sandman31, Matthew Schroeder, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, Huesito88, PrinceOfTheMorning, MrKingOfNegativity.

 

[Mickey1940]

uh

what?

isn't Pre-Retcon LT the same thing as Post-Retcon LT?

or am I missing something here?

I thought multiiversal abstracts had Type 5 Acausality

 

[Antvasima]

No, the writers (or rather Tom DeFalco) decided that the Beyonder was suddenly far less powerful than most of the regular cosmic entities, and later (in the mid 1990s, I think), the Living Tribunal was established to be 1-A. It seems inappropriate to retroactively scale between different versions of the continuity.

 

[Mickey1940]

o

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Because the Living Tribunal was not 1-A back in 1985, and that is the era when the pre-retcon Beyonder existed. After that he was retconned to a far less powerful cosmic cube.

Somebody can ask the following members to give input here though. Maybe I have used faulty logic regarding this.

Kepekley23, Sandman31, Matthew Schroeder, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, Huesito88, PrinceOfTheMorning, MrKingOfNegativity.

How wasn't the LT 1-A during the events of the Secret Wars? If the LT that appeared in SW#2 is just an M-Body then I would concede. Plus it wouldn't make sense for LT to have his M-Bodies to confront Beyonder, knowing that he is above everyone in the Marvel multiverse and the abstracts during that time.

 

[Antvasima]

Because we cannot apply the standards established 10 years later to an earlier version of the Marvel continuity. I have already explained this.

Also, M-Bodies did not exist back then either, and are currently an ignored concept.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Beyonder in his realm was at most infinite dimensional. During the 80's LT was not as powerful. His job was like overseer of Magic rather than a cosmic judge of the Multiverse. Concepts of MultiEternity were absent. Hell, during that time Marvel had a baseline multiverse with the dimensions itself being more like realms and pocket dimensions rather than higher spatial dimensions. Beyonder never transcended any concept of dimensions. In Marvel he had to change into three dimensional being to exist. If we go by modern Marvel Cosmology Beyonder would be a bit below beings like MultiEternity.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he was either infinite-dimensional or beyond-dimensional, as we mentioned in his page, but you are correct about the Living Tribunal.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Well, he was either infinite-dimensional or beyond-dimensional, as we mentioned in his page, but you are correct about the Living Tribunal.

No, in his page too the narration said, in his own universe he was infinite dimensional but in marvel he had to become three dimensional. Also, he was beyond the multiverse because he came from a different multiverse. The word Beyond doesn't mean superior or transcendence but just outside. Like, just because I exist outside a car doesn't mean I can destroy it or erase it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it was mentioned that he was beyond space and time in the narration.

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Beyonder in his realm was at most infinite dimensional. During the 80's LT was not as powerful. His job was like overseer of Magic rather than a cosmic judge of the Multiverse. Concepts of MultiEternity were absent.

How do you differ that 80's LT was not as powerful as the original one? Was there a statement about that in the comic? Same thing goes for the idea of Multi-Eternity not existing in the 80's

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

Also, he was beyond the multiverse because he came from a different multiverse. The word Beyond doesn't mean superior or transcendence but just outside. Like, just because I exist outside a car doesn't mean I can destroy it or erase it.

Eh, what kind of lowball is this? Beyonder is not just outside of the multiverse, he is superior to it by multiple times. This is a fact reiterated upon in Secret Wars 2. So yeah, that attempt to lowball him is ridiculous, same thing goes for your analogy because it doesn't work here when in-comic scans prove otherwise.

And if you read the context of it, he had to have a 3-D body to experience the multiverse. It wasn't like that he was forced by the multiverse to have a 3-D body. In the first issue, it is within his self to be incorporeal if he wants to.

 

[Antvasima]

Again, the Living Tribunal had not been stated to transcend space and time or be a multiversal judge yet at that point. He just preserved the mystical balance between universes.

We should preferably close this thread.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

What the hell are you on? It is in the sacan itself where it was said Beyonder in his multiverse is infinite dimensional. I am not even trying to lowball him. Current LT can easily beat him. Are you trying to suggest that MultiEternity existed back then? Hell, the current multiverse is different than previously. Beyonder arrived in a Marvel Multiverse where dimensions existed side by side rather than as a higher spatial existence. LT was a guy that would only deal with mystical aspects of the multiverse. Even Franklin Richards would be superior to that multiverse.

 

[Antvasima]

Please make an effort to be more polite. You are correct in that the cosmology was different back then though.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Sorry

 

[PsychoWarper]

I think theres to much contradictions to make Pre-Retcon Beyonder and MM pure 1-As, I think their current rating makes the most sense since they are likely 1-A but we arnt 100% due to the sheer difference in cosmology.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Exactly.

Should we close this thread?

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

@Immortal

Please do read my reply to your comment, did I state in that comment that Beyonder was solid 1-A? I didn't. I already concede to your point that's why I stopped talking about it, if that wasn't obvious. I merely addressed your lowball on Beyonder not being beyond the multiverse when multiple showings say otherwise.

 

[UnknownGodXXX]

There something that lingers on my mind though, the reason why you don't accept Beyonder and MM as solid 1-A is because LT isn't transcendent to the multiverse and the cosmology was different. LT was later described to be beyond the multiverse 3 years after the Secret Wars, specifically in Silver Surfer.

Going by that same logic then Ren, Reinhard, Marie, and Mercurius aren't 1-A because the only thing that they showed in Dies Irae is multiversal at best and Hadou Gods weren't referred to be beyond all concepts. Being above all concepts and the expansion of the cosmology was later described, 4 years after the release of Dies Irae.

 

[Antvasima]

The original concept for the Beyonder character was retconned out of existence. That is why we cannot use anything after that.

 

[Deleted member 2530]

Well, Even after Dies Irae they were still Hadou Gods. Apart from Hajun and Yato they were the strongest Hadous. But Beyonder and Owen were retconned to half of a cosmic cubes. Owen himself says that the only reason Beyonder thought himself superior to LT was because of his arrogance. They were well below Eternity. So, scaling a non existent character to LT doesn't make any sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed. I will close this thread now. Please do not bring up the subject again.