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Pre-Crisis Superman Feat and Correction

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The Green Lantern Corps when fighting Jaxon caused the Infinite Timelines to be destroyed, and i'm pretty sure the GL Corps where also able to defeat Maaldor (or at least hold him off with a self sacrifice)

So they have the capacity to at least be 2-C if not 2-A in power.
 
Also @King, sorry to be a pedantic asshole, but how do you know the consistency of the Pre-Crisis Universe if you've literally admitted you haven't read a single Pre-Crisis books in YEARS and have a very spotty memory about them at best?

How can you definitely say that Pre-Crisis Darkseid was never shown as being "legitimately" Multiversal if you haven't even touched a story with the character in forever? How you can tell me it's not consistent when you don't even seem to really know that much about the Great Darkness saga.

Both Sandman and Prince know the Pre-Crisis verse pretty well, hell Sandman rightfully pointed out how i was wrong about Maaldor's scaling, and though they don't 100% agree with me either, they still have full backed that both the feats i've shown are legitimate 2-A feats, with Prince going over COIE to make sure i wasn't taking it out of context.

I'm sorry to question your knowledge, but can you at least point out specific reasons why Pre-Crisis Darkseid being Multiversal is completely impossible based on his stories and feats? Or at least a broad reason why Pre-Crisis Superman being 2-A is so outlandish outside of "Well he's inconsistent" and his "high ends" are all over the place?
 
Another possible feat, though i'm not to sure about it. @Prince should know more about it than me.

In the final battle with the Anti Monitor against Golden Age and Superboy, he mentions that he absorbed all the energy of the Anti Matter Universe (At least that's what i gathered, and the DC wiki seems to somewhat back it up in their description for the issue) for one last assault on both characters and seems to blast them and even actively try to crush them. They seem to be able to resist this enough to not die instantly, and are shown as being ok afterwards despite the brief time AM was very much trying to annihilate them. It also shows Darkseid sending an energy beam through Alexander Luthor that nearly annihilates the AM after he absorbed the power of his Anti Matter verse, though Superman still had to finish him off.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the Anti Matter Verse powering the Anti Monitor enough to contend with the Monitor who was powered by Infinite Universes? Wouldn't that give the absorption of the AM-verse Multiversal+ power, and the fact that Darkseid was able to still nearly destroy AM in this state, and Superboy and Superman being able to survive an onslaught of this power, even if it's a fraction, even momentarily a pretty good 2-C to 2-A feat? Or am i just off my meds?
 
@Jared

At that time the Antimatter Universe no longer contained 2-A levels of power. The Anti-Monitor absorbed all that energy just prior to traveling back to the dawn of time. "Post-Crisis", as in, Post-dawn of time Anti-Monitor, wasn't too quantifiable besides scaling to Superboy Prime.
 
Ah, how powerful would the Anti Matter Universe have been at the end of the series been then?

I'm fact, if he had already absorbed all that energy, how did he tap into extra energy that he had already absorbed?

EDIT: I'm also wondering, did the AM Universe cease to exist after the dawn of time? Because it's mentioned that Qward still existed in the Post-Crisis continuity and that would still exist enough for the Anti-Monitor to still absorb "all" of its power even after the Dawn of Time. Does it mention him losing the energy of the AM verse and then reabsorbing it? Or was this another AM verse that gave him substantially less power?
 
Unquantifiably powerful. It was also left somewhat unclear but pretty heavily implied that since the positive matter multiverse was recreated into a universe, the antimatter universe was also created differently, as its equal. So he would have absorbed different energy.
 
Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Though i wonder, was the Anti-Monitor considered after the Dawn of Time weaker than he was in his base form? Cause if that's the case, why was he considered way more powerful in comparison to guys like Superman who couldn't even scratch him even after the Dawn of Time incident. Even though a Base 2-A AM was still vulnerable to attack by Supergirl.

Also, i looked into it, and maybe i'm wrong here but it seems the AM universe wasn't all the affected by the post Dawn of Time corruption, as we still see the AM home being destroyed as it was before the rebirth of existence and iteven has the Flash's costume in the ruins of Qward in the same general place it was after he destroyed the AM's cannon in COIE #8. It even has his ring that Wally picks up. So again, maybe it was just recreated in the exact same manner and still somehow shared the same events in the exact same way as before the rebirth of existence but still lost power, but it seems a bit odd.
 
I remember Matt saying Low 2-C seemed fine given the big bang feat, but it seems he prefers 3-A. I'm neutral on him being either 3-A or Low 2-C, but I agree with him and Mr King about the Multiversal stuff being iffy.
 
I don't find it reasonable to have to read through every last word of four different essay-long posts right now, but from what I've managed to gather:

You still haven't given more than one feat on this level for each of the characters you're wanting an upgrade for. As is the problem with using scaling in DC without several supporting feats backing it up, the reasoning here is getting to be extremely circular at this point:

"Why's this solitary feat not an outlier for Supes?"

"well because this other character he's stronger than has a shared feat that high too, and another one he's supposed to be comparable to kind of did something on that level also--"

"K, and how come that's not an outlier for those characters."

"because they're comparable to Supes, who has a feat on that level"

I shouldn't have to point out what's wrong here.

And if you'll notice, I never said any of the feats were "bad" or "illegitimate" on their own, only that they're absurdly higher than the other feats the characters have shown, and that there isn't nearly enough of them to justify this upgrade as of right now. That's another one you can add to your list of words you've put into my mouth today. (and believe me, there's more)

Oh look, speak of the Devil...

"Supes has way more planet level feats than Tier 2 ones so I guess you'd be happy with us downgrading Supes to planet level" is a pretty terrible strawman, seeing as A) he has more than enough far greater showings to disprove the peak of Supes power being that low, and B) all (or almost all) of those planet level showings, and other better showings like the feat of him pulling an entire galaxy worth of planets, are extremely casual. You know this already and so do I, so this line of debate isn't doing you any favors.

This one should have been pointed out by someone else already.

Dante is irrelevant here. Not only was I not actively involved in the CRT that upgraded him (meaning I had nothing to do with what was decided there and it has no bearing on my opinion here), but Dante doesn't come from a verse that requires its own extensive scaling rules. He also doesn't have several more 7-B to Tier 6 feats; before the upgrade, he scaled to exactly one High 6-A feat that was being argued extensively as to whether or not it was even calculated correctly, and had several other lower showings that were used to rate most of his other keys.

Of course, none of that matters anyway, because this thread isn't even about Dante.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm going to bottom-line this post by saying this; unless you have multiple instances of Superman and Supergirl showing the level of AP that's displayed in the two feats given, this upgrade isn't reasonable. Two feats and a lot of scaling would be fine for most other franchises, but just one look at the Marvel/DC scaling rules is enough (or should be enough) to see why that isn't sufficient here.
 
Like I said, I'd be fine with a "2-C, possible 2-A" rating if we can't fully commit. It just kinda sucks I seem to have more blatant 2-A feats than 2-C feats for him.
 
Anyway, I've said all I'm going to say on this thread. It's clear that we're not going to see eye to eye on the topic at hand, so I suggest we just agree to disagree. I'm certainly not going to throw a fit if the upgrades go through.

EDIT: Ninja'd.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
You still haven't given more than one feat on this level for each of the characters you're wanting an upgrade for. As is the problem with using scaling in DC without several supporting feats backing it up, the reasoning here is getting to be extremely circular at this point:

"Why's this solitary feat not an outlier for Supes?"

"well because this other character he's stronger than has a shared feat that high too, and another one he's supposed to be comparable to kind of did something on that level also--"

"K, and how come that's not an outlier for those characters."

"because they're comparable to Supes, who has a feat on that level"

I shouldn't have to point out what's wrong here.

And if you'll notice, I never said any of the feats were "bad" or "illegitimate" on their own, only that they're absurdly higher than the other feats the characters have shown, and that there isn't nearly enough of them to justify this upgrade as of right now. That's another one you can add to your list of words you've put into my mouth today. (and believe me, there's more)

I'm sure there's more, but I'm going to bottom-line this post by saying this; unless you have multiple instances of Superman and Supergirl showing the level of AP that's displayed in the two feats given, this upgrade isn't reasonable. Two feats and a lot of scaling would be fine for most other franchises, but just one look at the Marvel/DC scaling rules is enough (or should be enough) to see why that isn't sufficient here.
Click to expand...
I guess i can address these here.

I don't see what's such a problem when he has a direct 2-A feat on his own, and scaling not only from Supergirl, but from the Green Lantern Corps, both of which performed 2-C to 2-A feats. We've had DC characters get their AP from scaling to other characters before, so why is this such a problem? If characters he scales to, one of which was directly attributed to the same feat he did, along with scaling below a bunch of characters that are also casually 2-C to 2-A are. Like, if i found one more feat for Superman that was 2-A would that magically make it all better?

What about the scaling for Darkseid, being above characters like the Green Lanterns, Time Trapper, and Mordru... is that not enough with their casual 2-C to high end 2-A feats to be considered a valid upgrade to them?

I guess it's just kinda aggravating that if this was any other verse, these 3 2-A (Seeing how the Green Lanterns destroying infinite timelines and Superman redoing them are separate feats) would be enough

Again, if i was able to find one more feat for Superman directly being 2-A would that be enough? Or would i still need to find just another more after that? Do i need to find one more 2-A feat for each character to make sure it's 100% legit? Do i need to resurrect the ghost of Elliot S Maggin and Curt Swan to come down here and tell in their own words that he's Multiversal+? I'd honestly rather have the feats outright proven wrong or wanked so i could at least feel like i wasn't be jerked around because we'd arbitrarily decided this character can't be 2-A unless he fills our specific quota that is different from character to character.

Listen, i'm sorry if i sound annoyed, it's just aggravating to be like

"I found this feat for Superman that shows very clearly he's 2-A in power."

"Eh, not really feeling it"

"Ok, fair enough, how about him scaling to 2 other characters, one of which directly has his powerset, and one that directly leads into his own feat"

"Eh, this still sounds like it's contradicting the rules of the universe"

"But his feats still would fall short of other characters that not only scale above him like Darkseid and Time Trapper, who have their own set of 2-C to possible 2-A feats in power outside of Superman, so it wouldn't contradict the lore"

"Still not good enough, you need to have at least 1 1/2 more feats before we even consider it"

Just seems like it's a bit unfair that rules of upgrading DC characters is THIS strict. I understand scaling to stuff like Black Panther to Silver Surfer cause of that choke hold being so ridiculously beyond Black Panther's power level, or Spider-Man beating a guy like 3 tiers above him casually, but with Superman i feel like since he's already shown Universal+ at least before, and regularly fights threats that do in fact threaten existence and was considered in context to be a immensely OP and nigh indestructible character being upgraded based on a few concrete feats, it should at least be worth a bit more than a passive aggressive dismissal, or a "possible 2-A" ranking at the very most.

(That being said, i agree that the Planet argument was a strawman and i should've come up with a better excuse. Also i just brought up Dante's upgrade because it seemed like a similar circumstance to this upgrade. Thanks for at least taking the time out of your day to talk to us, hope you have a good weekend.)
 
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if i was wrong on the two feats being 2-A, I'd at least be satisfied in knowing I just messed up and could live with the mistake.

It's the fact that Were right about it being 2-A, but I'm not right enough to make a difference that feels like getting blue balled.
 
@Jared

Post-Crisis history still had a Crisis too, except in that new history there were never infinite universes to empower the Anti-Monitor, and no reason for the Anti-Monitor to have gained 2-A energy in the final conflict when he absorbed all the energy in the antimatter universe.

Edit: And by Post-Crisis I mean Post-dawn of time, since obviously the events are still in the COIE storyline.
 
Alright, but that still begs the question of why AM still seems to be at a higher power level than his base form despite the weakening of his power source. Is it still possible that he held on to the old power of the antimatter universe after the Crisis?
 
I agree with MrKing and Prince.

Jared, I would appreciate if you drop this issue, so we can decide how best to solve this.
 
Alright, but I just wanna be clear before we continue, are we completely rejecting the feats or can we come to some sort of compromise? Like adding a "possibly 2-A" at the end of his profile since the feats are at least confirmed 2-A, or at the very least using the low end of the Jaxon feat (maybe assuming that all possible futures only means the select few we've seen throughout the Earth One Continuity) to be at least 2-C. I'd at least like to feel I accomplished even a small victory.
 
Thank you. We seem to be rejecting the 2 feats as outliers.
 
I mean, can there be at least some sort of compromise for the 2 (kinda 4 if count the separate feats for GL shooting the ring energy and Time Trapper redirecting it) in any sort of way? Maybe get a consensus if it's ok from Sandman and Prince for at the very least a "possibly 2-A" tier? Maybe even a low end 2-C Jaxon feat?
 
I do not think so, sorry, but the informed members need to discuss how we should best solve this issue now.
 
If that's your guys decision then fair enough, but I would have thought a 2-C upgrade at least would have been fine enough.

Who's upgrading Darkseid's Pre Crisis Tier to "At Least 2-C, Likely Far Higher" or "At Least Low Multiverse Level, Likely Far Higher (Defeated both Time Trapper and Mordru whilst heavily weakened, and even after absorbing their powers to replenish himself was still nowhere near his own full power)" by the way?
 
"Likely far higher" probably isn't warranted in this case. What Darkseid said at the end was "my powers have waned", and even accounting for the fact that he said that after absorbing Sorcerers' World's energy after he absorbed Time Trapper's and Mordru's, the most we can say is that he's significantly more powerful than Time Trapper. And 2-C is a pretty gigantic tier.

In any case, if no one does it now I can do it at the same time as a whole bunch of other stuff next week, when I post everything missing from Darkseid's profile.
 
In that case I'd say leave upgrading Darkseid for now and do it all at once, at most just leave a note or whatever to remember (I doubt you'll need it but just incase)
 
I just remembered that The Great Darkness Saga was published in 1982 and that in Legionnaires v3 (1986) it was revealed that the Time Trapper prior to that was just a substitute given a portion of Trapper's power and is not the real Time Trapper.
 
@POTM

Thank you for the help.

@Sandman31 & POTM

So how should we best solve the Superman (Pre-Crisis) situation? Do we need to modify his profile page, and if so, how?
 
yo so I still don't get it. If Supey's got like a few multiversal level feats from himself and other guys like lantern and Kara why is it so hard for him to get an upgrade? i Get dc is inconsistent af but if he's got the feat to back up his scaling and he's weaker than time Trapper and darkseid who also got Multiverse destroying powers anyway.

kinda seems like guys don't wanna let him be above universe level no matter what
 
@RileyMan77

That's a very inaccurate representation of the discussion.

Correct me if I missed anything. The thread is very dense.

Pre-Crisis Superman has 1 2-A feat. (Fight with Jaxon the Mighty restore "all possible timelines")

Pre-Crisis Supergirl has 1 2-A feat. (Taking on the Base Anti-Monitor)

The rest of the debate comes from the scaling between them, Darkseid, Time Trapper versions, and etc.

Assuming that the whole Future Green Lantern Corp is 2-A combined, that would make them at least 2-C individually, even though the best Pre-Crisis Green Lantern feat is Jal Jordan taking the entire force of gravity (mass) of a universe which is 3-A.

The question is if these feats constitute as outliers or not, accordingly.
 
I guess. but if this many people got 2-A feats why is it so ridiculous to upgrade? Superman is already low 2-c and Hal Jordan would scale to him, so why couldn't Hal be 2-c at best and Superman be 2-c to scale to him. that would make sense at least

couldnt resetting a bunch of timelines be 2-c at least as well?
 
Maybe 2-C, but 2-A seems like too much. However, Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning have a better sense of judgement than I do about DC and Marvel scaling.
 
@Sandman

I was hesitant to get too off-topic since I'm gonna make a thread anyway, but regarding Time Trapper, it isn't just the Controller-looking minion that helps give Darkseid scaling, the Post-'86 "true" Time Trapper does too. I'll just bring that up when I make a thread though.
 
2-c sound pretty alright to me, especially if he would scale to green lantern, plus I think someone mentioned that we don't know if the Multiverse was properly scaled yet, so it could still only count as countless timelines in the story. that would be 2-c at worst I think. 2-c also scales to all his other foes low ends as well. and at least 2-c seems more reasonable than 2-a
 
You know, Riley may have a point.

It's possible that all Earth One possible futures wouldn't automatically equal infinite timelines, and Ant did bring up a pretty good point in hinsight that it wasn't entirely established that there were infinite timelines until Crisis on Infinite Earths. So it could be interpreted as the feat being 2-C to 2-B at absolute best. In that case, having Green Lanterns be potentially 2-C at best and scaling to Superman isn't as aggregious as upgrading all the way to 2-A. Honestly, they never directly state he altered infinite timelines, just all possible, which could still be interpreted as a 2-B (countless timelines) at best.

I also found this summary on the DC wiki where they mention that the AM wasn't actually full power when he fought Supergirl. A direct quote from them being "He had not collected much anti-matter recently, so he was very vulnerable and nowhere near as strong as he could be. " So that could mean that Supergirl wasn't facing a full on 2-A AM at the time, but a lower end 2-C to 2-B (at most) AM. This again scales to Superman would have a few 2-C feats, which i can concede is more reasonable, as she also destroyed AM Universe merging machine, which could also be seen as a 2-C feat. Also, wouldn't the Flash reversing the attack that could destroy 5 Universes be considered a 2-C feat as well? @ Prince.

I think that if we look at the feats like this, we could easily put them at 2-C (or 2-B if you count the high end of the statements), which isn't as much of a leap from Low 2-C, and still puts Superman below all of his Cosmic foes. Does that sound more reasonable at least?
 
@Jared

"Nowhere near as strong as he could be" is the key point there. That was still the same Anti-Monitor that fought the Monitor and released the initial antimatter wave that reduced infinite universes to five.

Edit: And as for Barry, that didn't seem like it had anything to do with AP, at least my impression.
 
So basically, even if you downplay it, Supergirl defeating AM would still be a 2-A feat? That and AM does mention that she nearly destroyed him as well... so darn. I never thought a feat being 2-A would be detrimental to an upgrade.

Well Supergirl did stop the Universe Merging machine that was merging the remaining 5 earths together so ... so maybe that can be a 2-C feat as well?

I do remember Flash stating that the Anti Matter was the source of the cannon that was gonna destroy the 5 Universes , and Flash has to run AGAINST the flow of the Anti Matter before ultimately forcing it back into the machine. Could that be a potential AP feat? Running against the flow of Anti Matter that powered a cannon that could destroy 5 Universes?
 
The first scan is talking about how Supergirl died fighting the Anti-Monitor. The second I suppose is up to interpretation, but I don't think it's an AP feat because countering the power source of the cannon doesn't necessarily mean he's countering the actual 2-C blast of energy that would result. That's just my opinion though, if others disagree then I'd just go with the majority.
 
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