Pre-Crisis Superman Feat and Correction

[Jared1111]

I understand to a certain extent what you mean, but I don't see why they are such a big deal in terms of upgrades

If this was Post-Crisis Superman getting jumped up this high, yeah that would break the lore in half. But this is Pre-Crisis, not only does he have a share of baseline Universe+ feats, but he seems to have two solid 2-B to 2-A feats that seem pretty rock solid all things considered (unless I'm wrong about Anti-Monitors tier at the time), and even a few vague 2-C feats at worst. Plus, his scaling doesn't mess up the consistency too much, as characters like Darkseid, Time Trapper, Doctor Fate, and Spectre all have 2-A potential.

I don't really think it would break the rules so much if a character that's already Universal at worst gets upgraded a few tiers. We've had higher tier jumps with similar proof before. This is unless Sandman or Matthew find the feats are being misinterpreted

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm

You can obviously update any dead image links, but the description updates should preferably wait until we have made a decision here.

@Jared

Point taken, but we need more input from Sandman31, PrinceOfTheMorning and Matthew Schroeder first.

 

[SuperAPM]

I'm with Jared on this one, Pre Crisis Superman was infamous for being completely broken so going from Universe+ to Multiverse level doesn't seem like to much of a leap to me.

 

[SuperAPM]

Antvasima

Are you in agreement that Pre Crisis Darkseid should be upgraded to 2-C at least due to being vastly stronger than both Time Trapper and Mordru combined?

 

[Antvasima]

Darkseid should scale from the Time Trapper and Mordru, yes.

 

[SuperAPM]

How big of a gap do you think? Darkseid was heavily weakened when he fought them and even after absorbing their powers was still nowhere near his own full power. At the moment, would that still elicit a 2-C rating, or could that change it to "At Least 2-C, Possibly Higher"?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that may be acceptable, yes.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I personally don't mind giving it a few days after messaging Matthew to see if he can catch a free moment, but if it takes too long we could apply the changes until it can be better discussed with the on site experts.

Or well, could just apply it right now if it seems okay and this left open to hear the opinion of the knowledgeable members when they catch a free moment.

 

[Jared1111]

Seems fair, so are we just upgrading Darkseid to 2-C or are we going ahead with a full revision to PC's tier as well?

 

[SuperAPM]

If you're going through with Superman's tier change then from my recollection this would also apply to Golden Age Superman, Supergirl, Krypto, Comet, Composite Superman, Karate Kid, Validus, Darkseid, Spectre, Doctor Fate, Time Trapper and Mordru.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We could ask SandMan or PrinceOfTheMorning for input, I don't mind Darkseid's upgrades, but I'm still a little iffy on Pre-Crisis Supes. I think his 2-C or above feats were brought up and dismissed however. I recall that Spectre was going to be upgraded to High 2-A or was it low 1-C. But he does have multiple keys and is often "Nerfed by the will of God" is the only reason characters less than 2-A are able to even go toe to toe with him.

 

[Jared1111]

Do you know why exactly the feat was disputed? I only remember them being decided against because they were "outliers"... but with the two 2-B/2-A feats, and the new Maaldor 2-C feat, I dont see why it can't be considered.

Spectre varies but he'd still be way above Supes even if Supes was upgraded (even if he was 2-A in base form, he'd still need help against anti monitor since he had the power of two infinite Multiverses when he fought Spectre, so it would still stand)

 

[SuperAPM]

I would have thought empowered Anti Monitor would be High 2-A At least, it'd be weird to think that Mxyzptlk could have beaten Anti-Monitor instead.

 

[Jared1111]

Characters like Mxy and Darkseid were a bit beyond the scope of the Crisis so I don't think it mattered to them much

 

[SuperAPM]

I know the New Gods weren't affected but I thought Mxyzptlk was, his Pre and Post Crisis incarnations are considered seperate versions IIRC.

 

[Jared1111]

I think Mxy can been confirmed to be the same character across all incarnations .

 

[SuperAPM]

I think that's only applicable to his Post Crisis Incarnation who also appeared in the DCAU, Lego Universe and many others, in Pre Crisis he had his Earth One version, Earth Two version who wasn't 5th Dimensional but instead magical in nature and had a differently spelt name, those two versions that were turned good (I think one of those was the Superman Blue and Red Storyline) and the one that was killed by Superman in "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" by Alan Moore

 

[SuperAPM]

Well, reading that issue of CoIE where Supergirl completely destroys Anti-Monitor's body, not only was A-M probably stronger than base level due to already absorbing some positive matter Universe's, it seemed like the heroes were slightly weakened due to being in the Anti-Matter Universe. At least that's what Kal-L seemed to indicate. At bare minimum that'd put the Kryptonians on Base Anti Monitor's level. I understand if that's to high an upgrade put it should more than justify a 2-B upgrade.

 

[Jared1111]

Yeah, and I dont why he'd be weaker in his home turf than elsewhere. Even a massive lowball would still be at least 2-A for Supergirl even scratching AM.

 

[Antvasima]

You should still ask Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning to help out with evaluating this and applying any potential changes. Preferably Matthew Schroeder as well, but he may be too tired to do so.

As for Mister Mxyzptlk, he was established at his current power levels first during Grant Morrison's JLA run.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

As far as I can tell, the timeline feat is just straight up 2-A, and calling it 2-C or 2-B in order to upgrade Superman would be hiding the outlier. That is, if it's an outlier. There's the fact that Supergirl had a great showing against base Anti-Monitor, who's listed as 2-A on the wiki. I reread COIE up through that fight and I didn't find anything that would explain away the fight unless you want to call it PIS.

The question of upgrading Pre-Crisis Superman to 2-A is kind of iffy imo. Even Time Trapper's 2-A feat was judged by Matthew to be through preparation, at least from the old thread I was looking through.

This is basically, "should we upgrade Supes based on two high-end feats, one direct and one scaling?" I'm not comfortable fully supporting that, given I'm not sure what the wiki has tended to do in cases like this before. If two legit feats are enough in the eyes of a staff member, then I see no problem doing it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Prince makes sense regarding the issue.

 

[Antvasima]

I am personally neutral regarding the issue. 2-A seems very extreme compared to his regular showings, but both feats are technically likely legitimate.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

@Dark and/or Ant

How does the wiki work in cases like these? Are two legitimate feats enough to make it not an outlier, or no? Just to be clear, Ant is right that 2-A is way, waaaaaay beyond his standard high-end feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Here are some other members that might be able and willing to help out here:

Kepekley23, Sandman31, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, Huesito88, Matthew Schroeder, MrKingOfNegativity, Yobo Blue.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That depends, and Outlier is hardly a consistent term. It's less about the number of feats or the gap between said feat and the next best feat, but rather the context regarding the feats. Outlier basically means the character required massive amounts of plot armor in order to perform a feat and should not be capable of such a feat naturally.

If a 2-A feat is done via prep time, then I'd probably not consider it concrete enough. And sometimes a fight scene could be portrayed as the 2-A character toying with the Low 2-C character, that could also be an indication of an outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Jared1111]

The question of upgrading Pre-Crisis Superman to 2-A is kind of iffy imo. Even Time Trapper's 2-A feat was judged by Matthew to be through preparation, at least from the old thread I was looking through.

This is basically, "should we upgrade Supes based on two high-end feats, one direct and one scaling?" I'm not comfortable fully supporting that, given I'm not sure what the wiki has tended to do in cases like this before. If two legit feats are enough in the eyes of a staff member, then I see no problem doing it.

To be fair, the timeline feat is also a 2-A feat for Time Trapper, as he casually redirected the attack that destroyed the timelines. So this does match up to his other possible 2-A feat. That and don't characters like Spectre and Dr Fate also have arguable 2-C to 2-A feats themselves (I do remember Dr Fate stopping two beings that affected the Multiversal order but that may have been contested)

I just think it's weird that it's considered so outlandish for him to be upgraded to at least 2-C if not outright 2-A with his feats. We've upgraded characters from far lower tiers to even higher based on a few solid feats before, and it doesn't seem like there's much objection to these feats other than "they're outliers". I just hate to see these feats be ignored.

If nothing else, could it at least be "2-C (for stopping maaldor who threatened several universes), to possibly 2-A" at absolute worst?

 

[Antvasima]

Threatening several universes is not a 2-C feat, unless you can destroy them all at once.

 

[Jared1111]

I guess threatening several Universes is not the right word, more literally dragging all neighboring dimensions into himself and eventually destroying all creation. Don't know if that still counts as 2-C though

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

If anyone wants to check the issue, it's DC Comics Presents #72.

Another important event is Phantom Stranger stating all universes around Maaldor's are threatened with Destruction, which reiterates the above scan in a very clear way.

Assuming these universes are all spacetime continuums, which DC has always treated universes as, as far as I'm aware, Maaldor is 2-C. Creating his own universe is not the limit of his power.

 

[Jared1111]

Yeah, comics here: https://***************.to/Comic/DC-Comics-Presents/Issue-72?id=55603&readType=1

I also want to point out Superman straight up lobotomized Maaldor on a cosmic scale. Dont know what ability that would be.

 

[Antvasima]

Maaldor does seem to have been at least tier 2-C then, agreed.

 

[Sandman31]

Not sure about scaling supes to Maaldor

 

[Hellbeast1]

I'd also note there's a new supporting feat Axis brought up (basically Darkseid at his prime is much, much stronger then two villains who threaten whole timelines)

 

[SuperAPM]

PrinceOfTheMorning

IIRC, the only reason Trapper can't just blink reality out of existance is due to other forces stopping him, namely Mordru and his vast supply of magic power. I think that's the only reason why he has to make plans in the first place

Either way I'm going to propose the possibility that Supe's might actually be stronger than Time Trapper. If we're in agreement that Supe's and Darkseid are roughly equivalent to each other; Then Darkseid beating both Trapper and Mordru whilist heavily weakened and not even regaining his full power after absorbing all of theirs would have to mean Clark is more powerful than both if he can stand a better chance against Darkseid. Correct me if I'm wrong, I know Darkseid typically has the edge in combat but I don't know if he's supposed to be only slightly more powerful or signifcantly more powerful than Supe's is.

 

[Sandman31]

Why I dont think Superman should be directly scale to Maaldor

Maaldor first appeared in DC Comics Presents issue 56. This is before Maaldor became a universal intelligence. He brought Superman and Power Girl to his dimension in order to fight.

Even before becoming a universal intelligence, Maaldor stomped both Superman and Power Girl at the same time, with Maaldor shrugging off punches from Superman and Power Girl even hurted herself from punching Maaldor. They were only able to defeat him by turning his energy toward himself which turned him into a universal intelligence

"---until he was tricked into turning his boundless energies inward...becoming, in turn, a universal intelligence"

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959605-rco009 (1).jpg

Superman battled Maaldor, now as a universal intelligence, in DC Comics Presents issue 65. Together with Madame Zanadu, Superman fought Maaldor again. Superman was still no match against Maaldor. They were able to defeat Maaldor, not by being stronger than him but by Madame Zanadu using the nature of Maaldors universe against himself.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959597-rco019 (1).jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959596-rco020 (1).jpg

"Ah, but we are not in your world any longer...we are in mine! and this is a universe of madness personified--where even the most deeply buried fears--may become reality!"

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959595-rco023.jpg

"The universe shattered...it feels itself attacked...battered by forces contrary to its very purpose for existence. Maaldor knows fear then--and he is helpless before it!"

Maaldor and Superman meets again on DC Presents Issue 72. He got destroyed this time but not just by Superman. The Joker is the main reason for his defeat, Joker basically usurped Maaldors power. Superman was being played around by Maaldor before Joker came to help.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959598-rco020.jpg

"to search out the ebb and flow of the insane tide about him---and grab on to the wispy streamers of this madness--to tie them to his very own!"

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11129/111294551/6959602-rco022.jpg

"I can use his own power against him for a while...but the rest is up to you!"

"I--I am found--!? Yet, I do but sense my own energy about...? But...an alien conciousness wields it... one kindred in spirit, if not might!"

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, so should we remove the mention of Maaldor from the Superman (Pre-Crisis) profile?

 

[Sandman31]

Yes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock the page for you. Tell me here when you are done.

A footnote explanation regarding why we do not scale from the feat would also be appreciated.