Pre-Crisis Superman Feat and Correction

[Jared1111]

Also, didn't Superman still lobotomize Maaldor on a cosmic scale in the issue? Wouldn't that still count for some sort of feat, even if he was distracted by Joker.

 

[Sandman31]

Not just distracted. Joker usurped Maaldors power during that moment. Using Jokers power he was able to go through all of Maaldors defenses. I dont think he would be able to do that without Joker's power and Maaldors power being stolen by Joker

Maaldor was stomping both Supes and Power Girl even before he became a cosmic intelligence. Maaldor as a cosmic intelligence was stomping Supes on their 2nd encounter until Madame Xanadu helped him. He was still stomping Supes in their 3rd encounter until Joker gained control of Maaldors power.

 

[Sandman31]

The stuff about Jaxon and Green Lanterns from the future were already discussed in a previous thread. I cant remember the conclusion of the thread though

 

[Jared1111]

I think the Jaxon feat was rejected at the time because it was either A.) an outlier or B.) the alternate timelines weren't considered alternate universes so it would still be a high end Low 2-C feat. But i think because the COIE Compendium does refer to the timelines that Superman affected as alternate universes, and because you have that COIE Supergirl feat showing that it's not the only 2-A feat that he scales from, i think that's where the new debate stems from.

As for the Maaldor feat, i may just be misinterpreting this, but it seems that Joker is only distracting Maaldor and Superman is trying to break free to hit Maaldor with a surprise attack. I don't think he needed to use Joker's powers to do it because when he uses his heat vision, Maaldor seems to state that Superman was the one that pierced his defenses, and Joker seems kinda surprised that it happened . Plus, the Phantom Stranger implies that it was still Superman that separated the "evil" from Maaldor and lobotomized him. It also seems that Superman is more being stomped because Maaldor is attacking his mind, and that's why he needs Joker to distract Maaldor so he can attack. Even the Stranger points out how defenseless Superman mind would be in an assault like this (then again Joker with Maaldor's powers does knock him on his ass, so i'm probably wrong on that front)

I guess it doesn't matter either way, since the fact that Joker with Maaldor's powers stated that he was a threat to the entire Multiverse , and the fact that even the Phantom Stranger mentions that he is useless against Maaldor's chaotic onslaught would imply that Maaldor is a pretty powerful foe , so i don't think it's a low end on Superman's part.

 

[Sandman31]

Maaldor was stomping Superman even before he became a universal intelligence so I dont think its not just mindhax.

Yeah , Maaldor kinda implied that that but we saw Joker pierced through the defenses of Maaldors conciousness. Superman only attacked Maaldors conciousness, his power/energy is in the control of the Joker so I dont think we can really scale Supes to "peak" Maaldor.

 

[Antvasima]

Since this is hard to figure out a solution to, we need more input here.

Here are some more people that you can ask to help out:

Kepekley23, KLOL506, Zensum, TheC2, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, Huesito88, MrKingOfNegativity, Yobo Blue.

Also, did anybody remove the Maldoor reference from Superman (Pre-Crisis) profile page, and add an explanation footnote?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

Sandman makes sense, but just one minor thing, this line from Maaldor seems to directly state that Joker didn't have all of Maaldor's power, just enough to get through his defenses.

Is anyone gonna make a Maaldor profile since he's getting removed from Superman's? He's a pretty cool character.

 

[Firestorm808]

I edited the page. Note:

"Maaldor the Darklord has consistently shown being superior to Superman, so they should not scale to each other."

 

[Antvasima]

@Firestorm

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Jared1111]

Sandman makes sense, but just one minor thing, this line from Maaldor seems to directly state that Joker didn't have all of Maaldor's power, just enough to get through his defenses.
Is anyone gonna make a Maaldor profile since he's getting removed from Superman's? He's a pretty cool character.

Yeah, he seems pretty impressive. It's mentioned that he was a threat to the entire Multiverse, so i wonder if he qualifies for 2-A.

That and even if Superman's might isn't equal to Maaldor, i still gotta wonder what that says about his Heat Vision that it can lobotomize an abstract-like entity. What sort of power would that be anyway?

 

[SuperAPM]

That sounds like Planck level heat to me.

 

[Jared1111]

I don't think Planck level heat would still affect a Cosmic Level Intelligence. Might be wrong though.

But yeah, Maaldor seems pretty beastly in his own regards, he also once took on the Green Lantern Corps and pretty easily took on all of them and the Guardians and was only defeated by a full assault and a self sacrifice. The GL Corps could also be seen as a 2-A combined force since it was their rings that caused the shattering of all timelines. Dude definitely deserves a page.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, what statistics should he have?

 

[Firestorm808]

You may want to edit Jaxon as Jaxon the Mighty. It's hard to search him without the latter half.

 

[Jared1111]

Well, if the Jaxon feat is considered and jokers exclamation of him being a threat to the whole Multiverse, he would scale above both the GL and Superman to possibly being 2-A at best in cosmic intelligence form. Don't know about normal form, though he did become that way under his own power being turned against himself, so it could still arguably be 2-A.

I guess we should figure out if people consider Superman's 2-A feats legit first.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I don't know if the Jaxon feat was truly intended to imply infinite timelines or just a few possible futures at the time. It wasn't until the Crisis that infinite universes were established.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The feats seem legit, as many people have said prior. My main problem is if there are any other feats on such scale besides the ones consistently debunked...

 

[Firestorm808]

In other words, consistancy of the feat.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Basically

 

[Antvasima]

A profile for Maaldor seems fine, but didn't Jaxon only appear in a single story?

 

[Firestorm808]

Googling "Jaxon DC" brings up the other Jaxons in DC: Jaxon Rugarth and Thunderbolt Jaxon

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Sandman31]

Googling "Jaxon DC" brings up the other Jaxons in DC: Jaxon Rugarth and Thunderbolt Jaxo

Theyre not the same Jaxon that Superman fought though.

Jaxon Rugarth is The Infinite Man, which we already has a page of

Thunderbolt Jaxon is a retelling of a 1940s british comic strip

 

[Sandman31]

Well, if the Jaxon feat is considered and jokers exclamation of him being a threat to the whole Multiverse, he would scale above both the GL and Superman to possibly being 2-A at best in cosmic intelligence form. Don't know about normal form, though he did become that way under his own power being turned against himself, so it could still arguably be 2-A.
I guess we should figure out if people consider Superman's 2-A feats legit first.

He's a threat to the multiverse because his madness will slowly spread to other universes, he is similar to Fusion Zamasu.

Also, just like Ant said, it could be just a few possible futures. They even mentioned the other possible futures as the parallel futures of The Legion of Superheroes and Jaxons future.

 

[SuperAPM]

Sound more like a soft-retcon to me

 

[Antvasima]

So should we upgrade pre-Crisis Superman and characters scaled from him to 2-C, and Maaldor to "At least 2-C"?

 

[Firestorm808]

Wouldn't that include Superboy-Prime?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that we can scale between continuities like that. Superboy-Prime displayed a peak of Low 2-C. He was knocked unconscious by a universe-destroying explosion.

 

[Firestorm808]

The Monarch one right?

 

[Antvasima]

Yup.

 

[Firestorm808]

Got it. So, do we remove the "Comparable to Pre-Crisis Superman" from his profile, or do we make Pre and Post Crisis Keys?

 

[Antvasima]

We should probably remove "comparable to pre-Crisis Superman" from his profile if we perform this upgrade, yes.

 

[Firestorm808]

I never understood why those comic pages were used to say that they were comparable when they were having casual fun/teaching.

 

[Jared1111]

Also, just like Ant said, it could be just a few possible futures. They even mentioned the other possible futures as the parallel futures of The Legion of Superheroes and Jaxons future.

But the GL directly states that it destroyed ALL possible Earth futures, he never states it was just a few. Hell, he mentions it twice just to hammer it in. Whether or not the Infinite Universes was directly established at the time (which i'm not sure about i gotta recheck) doesn't mean that the feat was retconned. All COIE did was let the audience know the scope of the DCverse, that doesn't contradict the feat within itself.

Heck, suplemental material like the COIE Compendium goes out of its way to establish that the possible timelines are also considered their own seperate universe within the DCverse, not just random timelines, at least in the case of Earth-295. COIE also establishes that Supergirl can take on a Base form AM in the same issue that establishes that he could take on Monitor who is powered by Infinite Universes. If anything, it just seems that Superman and Supergirl are low ends of the Multiverse spectrum, since Superman only affected a fraction of infinite timelines (which would still be infinite as far as i know) and Supergirl was still killed by a good shot from AM.

 

[Sandman31]

I think Time Trappers involvement here is being downplayed here though. Time Trapper already has a record of being 2-A via prep, while we dont have no feats close for the Lanterns to suggest that they are 2-A on their own. The circumstances that lead to the destruction of the possible futures isnt simply the Lanterns destroying but involves Time Trapper and the Timestream.

Anyway, I just think 2-A is a bit high but If everyone else agrees on 2-A then go ahead.

 

[SuperAPM]

I'm all for 2-A but I can understand if that's to much for some

 

[Sandman31]

I could be wrong though. Whatever I'll just agree with the majority

 

[Jared1111]

Yeah, Time Trapper is definitely the one that set off the events that caused the attack, but Xenophobe directly mentions that the Ring Energy being sent into the Time Dimension was what destroyed all the timelines, Time Trapper just arranged for it to happen, even if it had to be sent to the Time Dimension to do it. Though the fact that the GL were forced into a battle with a Prep level Time Trapper and he was easily able to out maneuver them shows how powerful he is. That and not even being bothered by infinite timelines being destroyed.

I agree that it's a big upgrade, but Pre-Crisis does lean on the extreme side at full power. It would also mean characters like Spectre would be considered 2-A at base at least which fits with his Asmodel ranking. And hey, 2-A Darkseid would be pretty cool.

I also wonder if an amped Pre-Crisis Superman would get considered since he was able to momentarily fight off a near full power Pre-Crisis Darkseid, who was stronger than both Mordru and Time Trapper?

 

[SuperAPM]

I thought Spectre's low showings were due to "being nerfed by God," I don't think its to much trouble to scale him above everyone else other than a few.

 

[Antvasima]

I am still not sure how to properly handle this, but PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31 usually have a good sense of judgement.

I would appreciate if you ask all of the following members to comment here:

Kepekley23, Matthew Schroeder, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, MrKingOfNegativity.