Possible One Piece speed downgrade

[Floxy178]

I'm not sure what to think of the assumption that Sanji did a full 180 degrees rotation after Queen started firing his lasers since we don't know if some or any of that movement could've been done before Queen started shooting.

I also think that this doesn't make much sense but at the beginning of thread Clover said that even original version is better(distance to the foot was used).

 

[Vzearr]

Yeah, I completely agree with this. What do you think we can use for Sanji's movement? I used that 180° rotation as high end.

Honestly I believe it's up to interpretation, I personally think 90 degree full body movement, coupled with 180 degree shoulder movement (to turn around) is a fine basis, though, I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Floxy178]

I think minimum escape distance is his full height if we assume that lasers were aimed at his face but he can't realistically move like this as he needs to turn around. So maybe 180° of his half shoulder width and then full height?

 

[Damage3245]

Since we are not sure about this situation, wouldn't it make more sense to use the low end value? I think it would be more accurate to use the distance to the ground instead of the distance to Sanji's feet.

Distance to the ground is better to me.

 

[ZawierJ]

Distance to the ground is better to me.

So you seem to agree with Floxy's calculation. Since a single CGM confirmation will not be enough, is there a chance you can call others?

 

[Floxy178]

So you seem to agree with Floxy's calculation. Since a single CGM confirmation will not be enough, is there a chance you can call others?

Antvasima already did

 

[ZawierJ]

Antvasima already did

yeah you are right, i forgot about that

 

[Floxy178]

So maybe 180° of his half shoulder width and then full height?

Damage, what do you think about using this instead of 180° movement of body?

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

yee this reach is absolutely insane... You're equating something different and misinterpreting the calculation...

After going back through this page, I understand the other side's arguments a bit more.

It is being argued that since Luffy called the Pacifista's attack "Too slow." that this is defacto the same as a statement of "Luffy's perception speed is 0.000000003336 seconds." The same way that a statement on someone's attack speed being "Supersonic" can be assumed that their value is at least 343 m/s.

Things aren't that simple unfortunately. A perception timeframe has speed and distance components. It isn't enough that Luffy is calling a lightspeed attack too slow because the distance is a factor in it as well. If a character claims that a bullet is too slow to hit them, it is a big deal if the bullet they're referring to is being shot from a hundred meters away or just half a meter away.

Distance is not a factor when luffy is perceiving light as too slow, the distance component does not matter against a statement, your turning a statement into a calcuation

The statement of luffy perceiving light as too slow is a valid assumption to say he can perceive the speed of light, if luffy used the same and even better perception, his statement then comes to play since we know he is able to perceive light... Has nothing to do with a Calc

let's take another statement for example...

「光」さえも踏みとどまる、眼力の持ち主!! 海軍本部大将でさえ、ベン・ベックマンの危 険性を熟知している!!!
He has an eye that even the "light" can't resist! Even the General of the Navy knows the danger of Ben Beckman!

This would give benn Backman a minimum LS perception from a statement... We aren't going to start making assumptions that... He can't perceive light 50cm away from him since the statement doesn't say anything about a distance meaning it's an unusable
that is just blatantly ignoring statements and feats to something that are completely reasonable and valid to use...

From our Reactions and Perceptions page:

• To calculate perception time, the timeframe in which a character was able to process some information or perform some kind of mental reaction needs to be estimated. The most common way of doing so requires distance and speed components. The two distances being the distance an object has when it is first in the perception of the character, and then the distance where the character starts to react. The speed can be something calculated or assumed, but preferably it should be a reliable statement stating how fast a projectile, object, or even another character is. Be careful to avoid Calc Stacking, though. To find perception time, you divide the distance (in meters) by the speed (in meters per second), and you will get the timeframe of the perceptions of the character (in seconds).

Even if the speed of the projectile in question is known (lightspeed), there are still distance factors that have to be taken into account. A speed alone does not give you a timeframe.

Distance factor doesn't have to be taken into account if it's by a statement and using valid assumptions, that's something completely different and is about calculating ones perception speed by using distance and speed

The same page states that 1 meter cannot be assumed arbitrarily whether you're trying to find out reaction speed or perception timeframe.

• Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component, so all calculations that are completed for reaction speed cannot simply be a timeframe by itself. Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed. Other way around, perception time is just a timeframe and by that not proportional to a speed value alone. Do not assume that a character with a certain speed will have a perception time of 1 meter divided by that speed. Such calculations need a feat that demonstrates perception time and a suitable distance determined from that feat.

Perception timeframe is not proportional to a speed value alone. Just because Luffy is calling the Pacifista's attack too slow to hit him does not mean we can just use 1 meter. Where does the "1 meter" come from? Nowhere in Luffy's statement or on the page of the feat. We need a "suitable distance" as specified in the bolded section above. That distance comes from the feat, not just an arbitrary assumption.

That's talking about a feat... Not a statement, you're equating something very different again to then use it for this

Now, I know the objections are "We're not calculating Luffy's perception timeframe. Luffy called the attack slow, which means lightspeed perceptions, which our table says is at least 0.000000003336 seconds. Where's the calc there?"

Our Calc Stacking page takes this into account with the section on Hiding Calculations:

• Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.
• This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.
• While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.

This is what is happening here.

No it's not... That would be if luffy dodged a light speed attack and used that to assume he has light speed perception... That's about feats not a statement that's completely valid for assuming a minimum LS perception

Luffy calling the attack "Too slow." is the equivalent of a character dodging a bullet from a short distance. It would not be wrong to quantify by rule of thumb an estimate of Luffy's perception speed as being "lightspeed perceptions" just as you'd not be wrong to estimate that a character who can dodge bullets from close range could be Supersonic in reaction/combat speed.

Again... That is very different as you're equating it to a feat and not a valid statement...

Luffy doesn't just dodge a light speed attack and say, that's it? No he calls it too slow meaning in his perception it's taking to long of a time to do anything

But just because this character is ranked as Supersonic for a feat like this does not mean that in an unrelated calculation you can assume the speed of their attacks as being this fast in order to calculate a different character's speed. You skipped over calculating their actual speed by making an estimate. This is what is meant by "Hiding Calculations". You don't get to say "We're not calculating Character A's speed. Character A dodged the bullet which means Supersonic movement, which our table says is at least 343 m/s. Therefore we can use that speed in another calc."

it isn't an estimate... It's a minimum for his perception... coming from a statement and not a feat which you're trying to equate it to

Yes, "it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation" as per our page, but it is also says "one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial".

This is about feats... Not statments again

The unwritten trivial calculation here is "1 m / 299,792,458 m/s". It is being hidden by claiming that "we're not actually calcing Luffy's perception timeframe, we're just getting it from the table."

No it is not, that's just a conversion to determining a value for a reference of LS Perception... Same way we do when converting joules to tons of tnt or speed of light to 299 792 458 m / s

Simply put, if distance wasn't a factor, why would we have a section on calculating Perception Timeframes that requires distance values? If we didn't need them, we'd just say "Take the speed of the object they're reacting to and divide 1 meter by it." but we don't.

Because those are calculating feats... Not about using statments for feats

 

[Damage3245]

@MonkeyOfLife With respect, you're not a Calc Group member. Your input here won't stop the calc being removed unless you can convince some other Calc Group members.

I think I've repeated myself enough on this. You're just wrong when it comes to our standards.

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

@MonkeyOfLife With respect, you're not a Calc Group member. Your input here won't stop the calc being removed unless you can convince some other Calc Group members.

I think I've repeated myself enough on this. You're just wrong when it comes to our standards.

You can think what you want, but the statement is completely usable for that feat in my view and I'm explaining why, if it somehow isn't accepted/usable then that's that

But it's better then saying nothing to something you view as being completely valid

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, thank you for sharing your view on it.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I have a few problems regarding the pixel scaling on the Sanji calc.

First of all, I'd like to say, using queen's nose is a bit odd considering the lasers come out of his eyes. So I'm going to use Queen's eyes as a reference for the calc.

1:
(Same panel used in the original calc).
Queen's height = 612 cm (583px).
Queen's eye height = 6px (6.2984cm).
2:

Queen's eye height = 7px (6.2984cm).
Panel height = 446px.
Distance from Pov to Queen = 0.062984m * 446/[7*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 2.86556510209 meters.
Sanji's neck and head length (according to Floxy) = 0.21477272712 meters (39px).
Distance from Pov to Sanji= 0.21477272712m * 446/[39*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 1.7538 meters.
Line between Sanji and Queen = 231px (2.42 meters).
Distance between Sanji and Queen before Pythag = 2.86556510209 - 1.7538 = 1.111 meters.
Pythag = √((2.42)^2 + ((2.86556510209- 1.7538)^2) = 2.663 meters.

And yes, whilst Sanji is turning around, he would be gaining more timeframe, as to turn around you would have to lower your legs first. If you want to use the distance to Sanji's foot, you would have to use a different movement distance, something like the minimum distance he would need to move to get his leg out of the way.

Blog this and I'll take a look when I can

 

[ZawierJ]

Blog this and I'll take a look when I can

I guess this method is almost the same as Floxy's calculation

Re-Calc of Sanji dodging Queen's laser

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Floxy178]

I guess this method is almost the same as Floxy's calculation

Re-Calc of Sanji dodging Queen's laser

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yeah, but I mind changing movement of Sanji

I think minimum escape distance is his full height if we assume that lasers were aimed at his face but he can't realistically move like this as he needs to turn around. So maybe 180° of his half shoulder width and then full height?

@Damage3245 @SunDaGamer What about using this?

 

[That_moron2]

Luffy waiting until the last minute to slightly move his head away =/= he only started to perceived it when it was near him.

Buddy, the scene clearly portrays Luffy as faster than the laser. To say he wasn’t perceiving it before it got close to him is disingenuous. I don’t really care what happens to the Kaidou calc but this is an argument from Scrutiny and not logic.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Buddy, the scene clearly portrays Luffy as faster than the laser. To say he wasn’t perceiving it before it got close to him is disingenuous. I don’t really care what happens to the Kaidou calc but this is an argument from Scrutiny and not logic.

Well good thing I’m not saying that. Keep fighting the strawman moron

 

[Chariot190]

Are we still on the Luffy reaction shit, it looked like it was settled but now, not so much?

 

[Damage3245]

Are we still on the Luffy reaction shit, it looked like it was settled but now, not so much?

Yeah, that bit is settled.

It's just the Sanji calc being discussed now.

 

[That_moron2]

Well good thing I’m not saying that. Keep fighting the strawman moron

Then why are you bringing up the fact that it was meters away (it very obviously wasn't when he started moving)? Your argument that Luffy doesn't have m/c reactions hinges on the fact that he was perceiving it from meters away but he just says he's faster than light. There's very little room for interpretation there. You are saying that because he was reacting form meters away means that he doesn't definitively have SoL reactions is essentially the same as saying he wasn't perceiving it. We see Kizaru in Marineford call Luffy too slow (compared to his light kick), Luffy sees light here and calls it too slow. I'll shut up now but Jesus Christ this argument is pretentious.

 

[ZawierJ]

Are we still on the Luffy reaction shit, it looked like it was settled but now, not so much?

We got it done. Right now we only need your comment for the Sanji calculation. Currently only Damage accepted the calculation

 

[Chariot190]

We got it done. Right now we only need your comment for the Sanji calculation. Currently only Damage accepted the calculation

I am not an OP goon, so I can't speak for context. Do you know which chapter it is? I'll go check right now.

Atm, the calc doesn't look wrong at least, but this seems to be a case where context actually effects the outcome.

 

[Kachon123]

Do you know which chapter it is? I'll go check right now.

Chapter 1034

 

[Chariot190]

So the question I assume is if we want to say Sanji, who was basically flat on his ass, managed to flip himself over and began running in between the panel Queen shoots the beams, and the explosive impact where he's dodging?

And that such a flip, would be at least a 180-degree movement?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'll shut up now

 

[ZawierJ]

So the question I assume is if we want to say Sanji, who was basically flat on his ass, managed to flip himself over and began running in between the panel Queen shoots the beams, and the explosive impact where he's dodging?

And that such a flip, would be at least a 180-degree movement?

I think there are two problems with this calculation. Now I will explain these problems to you.

• The first problem is; Is Sanji's movement a 90 degree movement or a 180 degree movement? Here, Sanji cannot be attacked while his feet are in the air. It is not clear whether he has his feet on the ground (I think it would be more accurate to assume that he has his feet on the ground, since logically he would not be waiting with his feet in the air. King Tempest also did this when making this calculation). There is uncertainty here. Were Sanji's feet in the air or had he landed on the ground when the attack was fired? Because we don't know this, we face uncertainty.​
• Secondly, plotting the distance between Queen and Sanji in pixels to Sanji's feet, obviously this is an extremely high ball value and this calculation contains many guesswork arguments without supporting arguments. Therefore finding low end results should be the most reasonable value. As the distance, we should draw the pixels to the ground, not to Sanji's feet. Because Sanji barely manages to escape the attack after the explosion. If this attack had managed to escape by moving only 0.50 meters, that is, 5.5 meters before the lasers reached Sanji's feet, he would have managed to escape from there before the explosion occurred, that is, before the lasers hit the ground and created an explosion. However, we see in the panel that he managed to escape the explosion by throwing himself out of it at the last moment. Therefore, as in Floxy's calculation, we must draw pixels down to the ground for the distance.​

​

 

[Chariot190]

Queen's eyes, would have the beam trajectory align, more or less with Sanji's head, so at an absolute minimum, that's the distance that needs to be subtracted from ground distance.

I think there are two problems with this calculation. Now I will explain these problems to you.

• The first problem is; Is Sanji's movement a 90 degree movement or a 180 degree movement? Here, Sanji cannot be attacked while his feet are in the air. It is not clear whether he has his feet on the ground (I think it would be more accurate to assume that he has his feet on the ground, since logically he would not be waiting with his feet in the air. King Tempest also did this when making this calculation). There is uncertainty here. Were Sanji's feet in the air or had he landed on the ground when the attack was fired? Because we don't know this, we face uncertainty.​

It'd also make sense for Queen to shoot before Sanji takes any other action, he's on his ass and in a vulnerable position, I don't see why Queen would wait for Sanji to begin moving again, so we can likely safely say Sanji was flipped on his head still by the time Queen shoots, and I could be wrong, but I'm going to say Queen initiating he attack is quicker than if Sanji did a whole ass flip, so they should be quicker on the draw there yeah?
I'm personally fine with the assumption Sanji's feet are in the air when the attack was fired. Unless Queen is just a dumbass? And waited till he flipped to attack again?
It is an assumption, but one I'd say makes the most sense.

But, I will say I don't think using the distance between Sanji's feet and the eyes for the distance he needs to dodge within is foolproof either, obviously as he begins to dodge, his feet will move down out of the way of the beams and they'd be well out of the way before he finishes his full movement so the distance he has to dodge within is actually quite a bit more, which I think is what you said yes? And given we see him hunched over in the dodge panel, to assume he did a whole ass flip into a standing position (aka, where his head and body would take the placement of where his feet was), is a bit much too, bro looks like he barely got back on his feet and is borderline diving.
Inversely, I think using distance to the ground is just as bad though, he'd end up getting hit, no real way around it.

Honestly, this might sound odd, but hear me out,

What about dick height?
The beam's trajectory is dangerously close to blowing his **** off, and even if he flipped to where he ended up in a crouching hunched-over position, his upper torso and head would occupy that same space where his dick once was (Give or take, some actual pixel scaling and protractor shit would need to be whipped out to find the exact placement and arc). The distance the beams could moved as he dodged within is probably more around there if anything.

 

[That_moron2]

What about dick height?

 

[Chariot190]

Not even a joke, grab a protractor, **** with the opacity, layer and align it with the image, and see what degree of arc he would need to shift his body in to dodge without coming into contact with the beam's trajectory. Based on beam trajectory, Sanji's groin would be, more or less, the maximum distance he'd have to dodge without dodging into the beams.

I've been using this bad boy for a few calcs, been useful in getting precise arcs.

 

[ZawierJ]

Queen's eyes, would have the beam trajectory align, more or less with Sanji's head, so at an absolute minimum, that's the distance that needs to be subtracted from ground distance.

It'd also make sense for Queen to shoot before Sanji takes any other action, he's on his ass and in a vulnerable position, I don't see why Queen would wait for Sanji to begin moving again, so we can likely safely say Sanji was flipped on his head still by the time Queen shoots, and I could be wrong, but I'm going to say Queen initiating he attack is quicker than if Sanji did a whole ass flip, so they should be quicker on the draw there yeah?
I'm personally fine with the assumption Sanji's feet are in the air when the attack was fired. Unless Queen is just a dumbass? And waited till he flipped to attack again?
It is an assumption, but one I'd say makes the most sense.

But, I will say I don't think using the distance between Sanji's feet and the eyes for the distance he needs to dodge within is foolproof either, obviously as he begins to dodge, his feet will move down out of the way of the beams and they'd be well out of the way before he finishes his full movement so the distance he has to dodge within is actually quite a bit more, which I think is what you said yes? And given we see him hunched over in the dodge panel, to assume he did a whole ass flip into a standing position (aka, where his head and body would take the placement of where his feet was), is a bit much too, bro looks like he barely got back on his feet and is borderline diving.
Inversely, I think using distance to the ground is just as bad though, he'd end up getting hit, no real way around it.

Honestly, this might sound odd, but hear me out,

You may be right about the 180 degree angle. But I think the same thing as the explanation I gave for the distance between Queen and Sanji

 

[Chariot190]

I agree, I don't think the distance between Queen and his feet is solid, given as he dodges, his feet will obviously be the first thing to move out of the way, and as such the distance he has to dodge within would be larger so it is quite the high-end. Inversely, I think Queen to ground distance is just as bad though, and we should figure out how much space he'd actually need to dodge based on his arc because it is def ain't ground distance, he'd be hit 100% as he dodges.
I'd wager it's about lower central mass ngl

 

[Floxy178]

I agree, I don't think the distance between Queen and his feet is solid, given as he dodges, his feet will obviously be the first thing to move out of the way, and as such the distance he has to dodge within would be larger so it is quite the high-end. Inversely, I think Queen to ground distance is just as bad though, and we should figure out how much space he'd actually need to dodge based on his arc because it is def ain't ground distance, he'd be hit 100% as he dodges.
I'd wager it's about lower central mass ngl

Okay, if Queen attacked while Sanji's feet were up, then we can make:

90 degree body rotation + 180 degree rotation of his half shoulder width(as he should turn around) + full height(to escape laser in the direction he ran)

Then we'll divide this by distance to the ground.

 

[Floxy178]

Then why are you bringing up the fact that it was meters away (it very obviously wasn't when he started moving)?

Do I understand correctly? You want to find perception not from distance light traveled until Luffy perceived it but from distance it was from Luffy after he perceived it?

You are saying that because he was reacting form meters away means that he doesn't definitively have SoL reactions is essentially the same as saying he wasn't perceiving it.

No, it's not the same.

 

[ZawierJ]

I agree, I don't think the distance between Queen and his feet is solid, given as he dodges, his feet will obviously be the first thing to move out of the way, and as such the distance he has to dodge within would be larger so it is quite the high-end. Inversely, I think Queen to ground distance is just as bad though, and we should figure out how much space he'd actually need to dodge based on his arc because it is def ain't ground distance, he'd be hit 100% as he dodges.
I'd wager it's about lower central mass ngl

So do you agree that using the distance to the ground would be more accurate than the distance to his feet?

 

[Floxy178]

So do you agree that using the distance to the ground would be more accurate than the distance to his feet?

I think he says that we should also consider that while dodging his feet also have to escape without hitting laser

 

[Floxy178]

But probably he won't do this without bending his knee so I'm little confused using rotation of full of it

 

[Chariot190]

So do you agree that using the distance to the ground would be more accurate than the distance to his feet?

No, both are equally bad, two wrongs do not make a right.

He would dodge, and his feet would of course be lowered, this would, in turn, increase the distance, and thus timeframe that he has to dodge without being hit.
But the distance to the ground? Nuh uh, ignoring the beam was aimed at his head so you'd at minimum subtract his head width from at distance, that would directly imply that the moment the beam hits the ground he's just finishing his dodge.
That is impossible, the beam's trajectory would have hit him as he does his 180 flip, like around his clavicle, and he would be flipping directly into the beam.

As such, we need to figure out how far the beam can go, while he's still able to do the movement required of him, without him and the beam occupying the same space at any point. Figure that out, and you have your distance.

But probably he won't do this without bending his knee so I'm little confused using rotation of full of it

I agree. I very well could be wrong, but the type of motion Sanji would most likely be doing, at least to me, is something like this


Where he flips over into a crouching-like pose (except he doesn't stand straight back up and 180 turns), such a pose would also enable him to go directly into the diving run/lunge he does as the beams explode too. Though I will say it ultimately wouldn't change much from if it was a 180 turn at full body length, given it'd instead become 180 upper body, and like multiple 90 degrees leg movements, as well as him extending his legs into the dive as we see one of his legs almost completely stretched out.

 

[CloverDragon03]

What about dick height?

Nah how'd I wake up to this

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Average One Piece discussion

 

[CloverDragon03]

Average One Piece discussion

I've seen y'all Bleach goons before don't act like this is any better

Well good thing I’m not saying that. Keep fighting the strawman moron

Also, I'm gonna be the one to say that it's clear you're using his username as an alibi to insult his intelligence without anyone questioning it so like... Could you not? It ain't slick