ZawierJ
He/Him- 582
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For Luffy's perception speed, KLOL and Damage think it's a calculation stacking, you're the only official who disagrees. How is this issue accepted in the wiki rules?
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KLOL doesn’t consider this calc stacking, first of all
Second, our rules only disallow converting a stated speed into an implied reaction time. Nothing bans the use of a reaction time that comes from stated, in-universe reactions
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It’s what we default to when it comes to close range reactions like with this one, so this is kind of a nothing burger since it’s not applicable to this caseThat’s a fundamentally incorrect and poor assumption Cloverlike be so fr just like not all lightning dodging feats are MHS, not all light perception feats are 1m/SoL perception time. The defense of “yeah well it’s actually an unsubstantiated and bad assumption therefore it’s not calc stacking” doesn’t resolve the issue in the event that that is the case, it just replaces it with an equally bad issue.
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Clover, for this to be an in-universe stated timeframe, we'd need the specific number. We don't have that. We get that currently by performing a calculation.
Just because you're assuming the result of that calculation instead of acknowledging it as a calculation doesn't mean it is valid to use for other calcs like the Kaido calc.
This is why we have a whole section on the Calc Stacking page called Hiding Calculations.
Just because you're assuming the result of that calculation instead of acknowledging it as a calculation doesn't mean it is valid to use for other calcs like the Kaido calc.
This is why we have a whole section on the Calc Stacking page called Hiding Calculations.
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No, we don’t need the specific number. You arbitrarily created that requirement, and just because you personally assert it to be required, doesn’t mean it actually is.
Do you have any idea how nigh-impossible an ask that is for most series? In most cases, the only series that would do so are those that are made by actual power scalers. This is the definition of an unreasonable ask
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Do you want to know what stated timeframe in a series looks like?
It looks like this.
It does not look like a character dodging an attack and saying "Too slow."
What kind of a number is "Too slow." Does look like any specific number to me.
It looks like this.
It does not look like a character dodging an attack and saying "Too slow."
What kind of a number is "Too slow." Does look like any specific number to me.
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It’s not the default, please point out where on the perception time page that’s stated
stop being intentionally ignorant and dismissive to hold onto poor assumptions. Like anyone can look at the Pacifista laser dodge and see that Luffy was not 1 m away from the laser, let’s not pretend elsewise.
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Believe me, I know exactly what kind of thing you expect for stated reactions. Sorry to say, that's not what is accepted, so get that accepted yourself before trying to push it onto other threads. It gets into willful ignorance territory if you look at a guy who reacts to light and sees it as "too slow" and basically go "best I can do is human reaction time" when it comes to applying that.Do you want to know what stated timeframe in a series looks like?
It looks like this.
It does not look like a character dodging an attack and saying "Too slow."
What kind of a number is "Too slow." Does look like any specific number to me.
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Nobody in this thread said "Let's use human reaction time" instead.
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It's an example of what I mean by willful ignorance, Damage
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So you're talking about something that nobody else here is talking about?
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I don't want to have to repeat myself. It's an example to highlight my point that I believe this kind of argumentation gets into willful ignorance territory
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I'm going to stop arguing here for now. I laid out my point on the previous page.
ZawierJ
He/Him- 582
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How about tagging another CGM because you are in disagreement with Clover?
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Well first off, if you're immediately making accusations of intentional ignorance, that tells me a lot about the level of good faith you're approaching this with - in which case, I shouldn't even bother.It’s not the default, please point out where on the perception time page that’s stated
But even putting that aside, I'm simply using our Reactions and Perceptions page since, if Luffy's reacting to a laser fired at him and views it as too slow, his reactions would easily be light speed reactions (which have a timeframe in the table). Also, do we know exactly when Luffy started to move his head? No, so let's drop the "pretending" accusations please. If anything, the panel indicates that Luffy moved his head when the laser was fairly close to him.
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That doesn’t logically track whatsoever
as it’s easier to react to something over a distance than in close quarters. So something can be perceived as slow when you have like 10 meters to react vs when you have like 1 meter to perceive and react. It being slow to Luffy over that distance doesn’t mean he has 1m/SoL perceptions just like kid Kakashi cutting a lightning bolt doesn’t make him de facto lightning speed.
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Well again, Luffy appeared to move when the light was close, going by what we have available to us - meaning he could perceive and react accordingly even when the light was at close rangeThat doesn’t logically track whatsoever
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Clover would you describe this then as "Quantifying it per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated"? After all you're not precisely using the distances of the feat, just quantifying it as "lightspeed reactions"?
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I suppose so? Since I'm basically arriving at what I believe to be a logical conclusion from what we know instead of calculating it since doing so would then turn this into calc stacking
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Thank you.
That is why we have this exact section in our rules:
If you want to say Luffy has "lightspeed reactions" per a rule of thumb and estimate it for a rating. That's fine! You can do that. It's a perfectly logical conclusion.
But you can't use that to calc Kaido's speed. Sorry, you just can't.
If you want to, get this section of the Calc Stacking page removed first.
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Luffy waiting until the last minute to slightly move his head away =/= he only started to perceived it when it was near him. However, as per Damage’s post, even granting you that he perceived it at close range only doesn’t make it immune from the hiding calculations part of our standards. So continuing our argument at this point is an exercise in futility, given it falls under calc stacking either way.
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I'm admittedly not a fan of that, but I suppose it is what it is as far as the Kaido calc goes. But, I'd like to ask another question: Could you at least arrive to the conclusion that, based on what we know, Kaido's feat would be some unquantifiable degree of FTL speed?
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We have a guideline on that too:
- If character A can blitz character B, A's movement speed may be scaled to B's reaction speed.
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Good to know.
The thing is that while I get why this rule's in place, in practice (namely when applied to reactions) is that it pretty much forces us to have stated timeframes when that's such a rare thing to come by and it pretty much means that blitzing someone with in-universe lightning/light/etc. speed reactions just can't be calculated. It is admittedly kind of a personal gripe, since I feel things like things like this should be able to be calculated, but whatever.
The thing is that while I get why this rule's in place, in practice (namely when applied to reactions) is that it pretty much forces us to have stated timeframes when that's such a rare thing to come by and it pretty much means that blitzing someone with in-universe lightning/light/etc. speed reactions just can't be calculated. It is admittedly kind of a personal gripe, since I feel things like things like this should be able to be calculated, but whatever.
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I get it. I have plenty of personal gripes with certain policies too; but I was just trying to get at that this is what our current policy is based on our pages. We may not like all of it, but that's what is there for now.
We'd quickly end up with inflated calcs if we calced one person's speed, calced their reactions, calced another character bltizing them, calc their reactions, calc another person bltizing them, etc.
We'd quickly end up with inflated calcs if we calced one person's speed, calced their reactions, calced another character bltizing them, calc their reactions, calc another person bltizing them, etc.
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I get your sentiment but in all honesty I don't think your second point is exactly equivalent to what I think should be allowed. I most definitely wouldn't allow for something like that, since that turns into calc stacking Armageddon
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Fair, fair, was just an example.
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@Executor_N0 @Mr._Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Migue79 @Psychomaster35 @KLOL506 @Dark-Carioca @Agnaa @Dalesean027 @Chariot190 @SunDaGamer
What do you think should be done here?
What do you think should be done here?
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Doesn't 1 meter thing involve only character's own speed? I don't think wiki allows that assuption where we scale character from an attack which just can be calculated and doesn't need any assumptions like this.
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This discussion's already been had and settled
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- #153
This was just a question though
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To answer question, no, we don't do that.
If you want to check any specifics, leave a message on my wall.
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I have a few problems regarding the pixel scaling on the Sanji calc.
First of all, I'd like to say, using queen's nose is a bit odd considering the lasers come out of his eyes. So I'm going to use Queen's eyes as a reference for the calc.
1:
(Same panel used in the original calc).
Queen's height = 612 cm (583px).
Queen's eye height = 6px (6.2984cm).
2:
Queen's eye height = 7px (6.2984cm).
Panel height = 446px.
Distance from Pov to Queen = 0.062984m * 446/[7*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 2.86556510209 meters.
Sanji's neck and head length (according to Floxy) = 0.21477272712 meters (39px).
Distance from Pov to Sanji= 0.21477272712m * 446/[39*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 1.7538 meters.
Line between Sanji and Queen = 231px (2.42 meters).
Distance between Sanji and Queen before Pythag = 2.86556510209 - 1.7538 = 1.111 meters.
Pythag = √((2.42)^2 + ((2.86556510209- 1.7538)^2) = 2.663 meters.
And yes, whilst Sanji is turning around, he would be gaining more timeframe, as to turn around you would have to lower your legs first. If you want to use the distance to Sanji's foot, you would have to use a different movement distance, something like the minimum distance he would need to move to get his leg out of the way.
First of all, I'd like to say, using queen's nose is a bit odd considering the lasers come out of his eyes. So I'm going to use Queen's eyes as a reference for the calc.
1:
(Same panel used in the original calc).
Queen's height = 612 cm (583px).
Queen's eye height = 6px (6.2984cm).
2:
Queen's eye height = 7px (6.2984cm).
Panel height = 446px.
Distance from Pov to Queen = 0.062984m * 446/[7*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 2.86556510209 meters.
Sanji's neck and head length (according to Floxy) = 0.21477272712 meters (39px).
Distance from Pov to Sanji= 0.21477272712m * 446/[39*2*tan(70deg/2)]= 1.7538 meters.
Line between Sanji and Queen = 231px (2.42 meters).
Distance between Sanji and Queen before Pythag = 2.86556510209 - 1.7538 = 1.111 meters.
Pythag = √((2.42)^2 + ((2.86556510209- 1.7538)^2) = 2.663 meters.
And yes, whilst Sanji is turning around, he would be gaining more timeframe, as to turn around you would have to lower your legs first. If you want to use the distance to Sanji's foot, you would have to use a different movement distance, something like the minimum distance he would need to move to get his leg out of the way.
ZawierJ
He/Him- 582
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I think a conclusion has been reached in Kaido's calculation. Will you make a comment for Sanji calculation? @Damage3245
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Yeah, I completely agree with this. What do you think we can use for Sanji's movement? I used that 180° rotation as high end.
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He said that will comment soon, getting more accurate escape distance will be better though.
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I'm not sure what to think of the assumption that Sanji did a full 180 degrees rotation after Queen started firing his lasers since we don't know if some or any of that movement could've been done before Queen started shooting.
ZawierJ
He/Him- 582
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Since we are not sure about this situation, wouldn't it make more sense to use the low end value? I think it would be more accurate to use the distance to the ground instead of the distance to Sanji's feet.
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