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The reactions page exists to define the tiers of the values. If you get a result from a calc and you want to know what tier it is, the table will tell you.
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This is the big problem I was mentioning would cascade into. We have multiple feats in fiction where we assume Subsonic perception timeframes for a person moving in afterimages to then gauge the distance they moved in that afterimage trail, which would get affected by this if we went that route. Hence my conclusion that the question in Agnaa's thread is pretty-much incomplete and vague and it leaving a lot to personal interpretation.
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Okay. Doesn't change the fact that you're pushing something that isn't accepted as something that is accepted. What's accepted is that you can't convert a character's stated speed of 299792458 m/s into an implied timeframe of 0.000000003336 seconds. That doesn't apply to someone having stated light speed reactions.
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So does the projectile dodging feats page. Both sections gauge values from real life.
Heck, just ask our inverse-square law feats where big explosions involving blowing up galaxies are involved and the galaxy destruction energy yield is used for the object at the edge.
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I've been commenting on this thread for hours to try and answer this.
Now though it's past midnight so I'll try to pick this up tomorrow.
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Right now we need to determine whether or not using our pages for our various calculations constitute as a calc, and whether using those baselines could be considered calc stacking, because this doesn't just apply to speed, it applies to AP and the rest of the wiki as a whole. Because we don't want a scenario where using a bullet's speed to determine another character's speed is considered calc-stacking because that would just be utterly nonsensical and would utterly ignore the ratio of distances moved by projectiles and characters. Or a scenario where we get a value for someone causing a massive explosion which destroys everything within a billion-year light-year radius with a galaxy at the far edge of said radius which would allow us to use inverse-square law to determine the explosion's true yield.
This is a policy that Agnaa's thread simply isn't big enough to tackle and will need its own CRT.
This is a policy that Agnaa's thread simply isn't big enough to tackle and will need its own CRT.
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That's not what is happening here.
It's more like using a bullets speed to determine a character's reaction speed, and then using that characters reaction speed to determine another characters speed.
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I wouldn't consider using our pages to be calc stacking such as, for instance, using our reactions page for light speed reactions when a character has stated light speed reactions. I don't want to get into a period of willful ignorance where a character with stated light speed reactions gets blitzed, someone wants to calc it, but our rules basically go "best I can do is human reaction time"
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IMO our current rules do cover this but either they're not written clearly enough or I've done a terrible job explaining them. I shall attempt to do so again in the morning, citing the specific pages.
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KLOL was just mentioning your argument of LS perception being a calculation and calc stacking to use
nothing like that is happening here/the calc...
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Except, there's no projectile in motion to use here at all. That'd require us to jump even more hoops.
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I'll do my best to cover it in 8-ish hours time.
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Eh, I don't think we have a stated perception time for him like "it takes him 0.000000003336 seconds to percieve something" or smth like that. About percieving light attack from 1 meters like was said above, it's just hiding calculations as you don't even consider getting timeframe from distance/speed a calculation.
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- #95
To Percieve same attacks from different distances won't be the same, here your assumption takes that if someone can perceive speed of light, then he can also perceive it from 1 meter distance
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luffy perceiving light as too slow by his statement gives him a minimum LS perception (lets even assume he used everything to try and react to it), there is no hiding anything...
Luffy then from his statement of using everything he got to react to kaido, considered him too fast
That would mean luffy in that instance/feat used the minimum LS perception via the statement which is now valid to use the same way any other Calc gets calculated
Using results from a calculation to calculate another feat is Calc stacking, using a statement of a value for calculating a feat is not. If you think so then every Calc is Calc stacking.
There is no calculation in getting a value from a statement, there is nothing to hide...
This wouldn't be a problem if someone stated that they were heavier than a megaton and later became an even heavier weight which someone lifted, a minimum megaton weight is definitely valid to use for that feat/calculation
You're the one ignoring the statements and feats to say it's Calc stacking or hiding calculations when it's none of that as a blunt statements can't be either of those two
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- #97
Then can you say what you mean by minimum light speed perception? What you are referring is probably 0.000000003336 seconds but do you have proof that if character's perception is slower than that, it is impossible for him to perceive light speed? A character with relativistic+ perception can also do this from distance greater than 1 meter. So if character perceives light speed, that doesn't mean he has "minimum LS perception" as it requires also distance which you should calculate timeframe from.
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The point isn't that Luffy was just able to perceive light speed. He was able to perceive it, but on top of that, he referred to light as slow, meaning that his perceptions are at least on that level.
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Again, can you explain why at least on that level means he has at least 1 meter / light speed perception? From what you're saying, should I understand that if a character calls something slow, then he can perceive this from less than 1 meter distance?
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Because that's the wiki's accepted timeframe for light speed reactions.
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- #101
Movement speed and perception speed aren't even associated proportionally, wiki just accepts 1 / light speed as light speed perception category.
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And Luffy's perception is within that category, hence why we use the absolute minimum.
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- #103
Your claim is like if a character dodges a LS attack he should be at least LS ignoring other factors.
You have to prove that? I already said that movement speed and perception speed aren't associated.
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Wrong. My claim is as if a character called a LS attack slow, he should have at least LS perceptions. I'd appreciate it if you stopped strawmanning my arguments going forward.
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Possible One Piece speed downgrade
So basically, you're not allowed to use the reactions page ever even when the reactions are stated and you pretty much need a statement of the exact timeframe. Got it. Get that accepted yourself before pushing that mentality. The reactions page exists to define the tiers of the values. If you...
Luffy can perceive light as it's too slow for him as stated... It cannot escape his perception speed, but kaido's speed can even when using everything to try to perceive him.
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- #109
It just proves that Kaido is faster than light, nothing more. Calling it slow won't change much.Possible One Piece speed downgrade
So basically, you're not allowed to use the reactions page ever even when the reactions are stated and you pretty much need a statement of the exact timeframe. Got it. Get that accepted yourself before pushing that mentality. The reactions page exists to define the tiers of the values. If you...vsbattles.com
Luffy can perceive light as it's too slow for him as stated... It cannot escape his perception speed, but kaido's speed can even when using everything to try to perceive him.
ZawierJ
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You find the perception speed of 336 nanoseconds by doing the operation 1 meter / 299792458 m/s. This is a process used to find the reaction rate as we know it. Here, an action is taken assuming that the attack at light speed comes from 1 meter and the reaction speed of the character is calculated. Using it in another calculation is calculation stacking.
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luffy perceiving light as too slow would mean a minimum ls perception as he can perceive it no matter where the light moves to if it's within reach
moving something that's too slow at a set speed no matter the distance when within my perception will always be perceivable... Since it's too slow
Perception speed, the faster the more everything around you slows down
At this point your just arguing with the statement
And we find 299792458 m/s by using distance and time, yet it's still not Calc stacking to use that to get a result... You're making any value a calc stack by saying this
it's the same as we do with other calcs... So it's not Calc stacking
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- #112
I think I explained this like multiple times but there isn't any "minimum perception to perceive light". That LS perception is what you tier that character after finding result.
Here we have direct statement for something moving at LS and since it's constant, there isn't any calc here. I don't get why are you saying that if speed's unit is m/s it should be calculation according to our reasoning. If we have a statement that says something moving at light speed, it will be same as saying smth is moving at 299792458 m/s. That value comes from real life, not fiction.
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And in vsbw terms if we have someone being able to perceiving the speed of light it will be the same as the perception time of 3.336 Nanoseconds. That value is not calc stacking
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Working on a summary very soon.
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After going back through this page, I understand the other side's arguments a bit more.
It is being argued that since Luffy called the Pacifista's attack "Too slow." that this is defacto the same as a statement of "Luffy's perception speed is 0.000000003336 seconds." The same way that a statement on someone's attack speed being "Supersonic" can be assumed that their value is at least 343 m/s.
Things aren't that simple unfortunately. A perception timeframe has speed and distance components. It isn't enough that Luffy is calling a lightspeed attack too slow because the distance is a factor in it as well. If a character claims that a bullet is too slow to hit them, it is a big deal if the bullet they're referring to is being shot from a hundred meters away or just half a meter away.
From our Reactions and Perceptions page:
The same page states that 1 meter cannot be assumed arbitrarily whether you're trying to find out reaction speed or perception timeframe.
Now, I know the objections are "We're not calculating Luffy's perception timeframe. Luffy called the attack slow, which means lightspeed perceptions, which our table says is at least 0.000000003336 seconds. Where's the calc there?"
Our Calc Stacking page takes this into account with the section on Hiding Calculations:
Luffy calling the attack "Too slow." is the equivalent of a character dodging a bullet from a short distance. It would not be wrong to quantify by rule of thumb an estimate of Luffy's perception speed as being "lightspeed perceptions" just as you'd not be wrong to estimate that a character who can dodge bullets from close range could be Supersonic in reaction/combat speed.
But just because this character is ranked as Supersonic for a feat like this does not mean that in an unrelated calculation you can assume the speed of their attacks as being this fast in order to calculate a different character's speed. You skipped over calculating their actual speed by making an estimate. This is what is meant by "Hiding Calculations". You don't get to say "We're not calculating Character A's speed. Character A dodged the bullet which means Supersonic movement, which our table says is at least 343 m/s. Therefore we can use that speed in another calc."
Yes, "it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation" as per our page, but it is also says "one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial".
The unwritten trivial calculation here is "1 m / 299,792,458 m/s". It is being hidden by claiming that "we're not actually calcing Luffy's perception timeframe, we're just getting it from the table."
Simply put, if distance wasn't a factor, why would we have a section on calculating Perception Timeframes that requires distance values? If we didn't need them, we'd just say "Take the speed of the object they're reacting to and divide 1 meter by it." but we don't.
It is being argued that since Luffy called the Pacifista's attack "Too slow." that this is defacto the same as a statement of "Luffy's perception speed is 0.000000003336 seconds." The same way that a statement on someone's attack speed being "Supersonic" can be assumed that their value is at least 343 m/s.
Things aren't that simple unfortunately. A perception timeframe has speed and distance components. It isn't enough that Luffy is calling a lightspeed attack too slow because the distance is a factor in it as well. If a character claims that a bullet is too slow to hit them, it is a big deal if the bullet they're referring to is being shot from a hundred meters away or just half a meter away.
From our Reactions and Perceptions page:
- To calculate perception time, the timeframe in which a character was able to process some information or perform some kind of mental reaction needs to be estimated. The most common way of doing so requires distance and speed components. The two distances being the distance an object has when it is first in the perception of the character, and then the distance where the character starts to react. The speed can be something calculated or assumed, but preferably it should be a reliable statement stating how fast a projectile, object, or even another character is. Be careful to avoid Calc Stacking, though. To find perception time, you divide the distance (in meters) by the speed (in meters per second), and you will get the timeframe of the perceptions of the character (in seconds).
The same page states that 1 meter cannot be assumed arbitrarily whether you're trying to find out reaction speed or perception timeframe.
- Reaction speed has both a distance and a timeframe component, so all calculations that are completed for reaction speed cannot simply be a timeframe by itself. Do not randomly assume a 1 meter distance for each timeframe and use that speed for the reaction speed. Other way around, perception time is just a timeframe and by that not proportional to a speed value alone. Do not assume that a character with a certain speed will have a perception time of 1 meter divided by that speed. Such calculations need a feat that demonstrates perception time and a suitable distance determined from that feat.
Now, I know the objections are "We're not calculating Luffy's perception timeframe. Luffy called the attack slow, which means lightspeed perceptions, which our table says is at least 0.000000003336 seconds. Where's the calc there?"
Our Calc Stacking page takes this into account with the section on Hiding Calculations:
- Hiding calculations is the practice of trying to avoid calculating a feat in order to be able to use the result in another calculation. In other words it is the practice of trying to fool people into not noticing that calc stacking is being used.
- This usually occurs if a feat is quantified per a rule of thumb instead of precisely calculated. A typical example would be a character dodging a bullet from a short distance being ranked as "Supersonic" and then using that ranking to calculate the speed of another character, whose speed one can compare to the former in some feat.
- While it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation, one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial, but is still the justification for the ranking. Hence calc stacking will still be an issue for such feats.
Luffy calling the attack "Too slow." is the equivalent of a character dodging a bullet from a short distance. It would not be wrong to quantify by rule of thumb an estimate of Luffy's perception speed as being "lightspeed perceptions" just as you'd not be wrong to estimate that a character who can dodge bullets from close range could be Supersonic in reaction/combat speed.
But just because this character is ranked as Supersonic for a feat like this does not mean that in an unrelated calculation you can assume the speed of their attacks as being this fast in order to calculate a different character's speed. You skipped over calculating their actual speed by making an estimate. This is what is meant by "Hiding Calculations". You don't get to say "We're not calculating Character A's speed. Character A dodged the bullet which means Supersonic movement, which our table says is at least 343 m/s. Therefore we can use that speed in another calc."
Yes, "it is acceptable to rank a character by such a self-evident feat without a calculation" as per our page, but it is also says "one should keep in mind that the unwritten calculation is only skipped due to being trivial".
The unwritten trivial calculation here is "1 m / 299,792,458 m/s". It is being hidden by claiming that "we're not actually calcing Luffy's perception timeframe, we're just getting it from the table."
Simply put, if distance wasn't a factor, why would we have a section on calculating Perception Timeframes that requires distance values? If we didn't need them, we'd just say "Take the speed of the object they're reacting to and divide 1 meter by it." but we don't.
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Damage FRA, but yeah dodging a light speed attack from dozens of meters away vs a couple centimeters vs a meter are all very different things, and shouldn’t be all defaulted to 1 m / SOL for perceptions, even if Luffy calls it slow. Would people be allowed to calculate the Pacifista to Luffy distance in order to get a useable timeframe? I’m not 100% familiar with what the conclusion of that perception time CGT allows and disallows.
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You can find that distance in order to make a Perception Timeframe calculation for Luffy's rating; you just wouldn't be able to use that value in another calc of someone else blitzing Luffy.
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Yeah, that’s an assumption we use when it comes to character reaction times
Still not a calc, so there’s no calc stacking
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That’s a fundamentally incorrect and poor assumption Clover
like be so fr just like not all lightning dodging feats are MHS, not all light perception feats are 1m/SoL perception time. The defense of “yeah well it’s actually an unsubstantiated and bad assumption therefore it’s not calc stacking” doesn’t resolve the issue in the event that that is the case, it just replaces it with an equally bad issue.- Status
