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Pokemon revision continuation

The_real_cal_howard

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Ant thought it would be best to make this, so here is basically the summary. Tbh, it's basically my blog but condensed immensely.

AP
Magikarp, Feebas, singular Wishiwashi, and Wimpod are 10-C. They're sub-human, though Magikarp has High 8-C durability.

Baby Pokemon (excluding Magby, Elekid, Smoochum, Riolu, and Munchlax) via being babies, but still very superhuman.

First form Pokemon, cocoon Pokemon, second form of normal baby Pokemon and first forms of the aforementioned baby Pokemon, and Pikachu clones are Large Building level+ due to being easily being able to kill a Magikarp. Many electric types have the power of Building level+, like Pikachu itself.

Kriketune, Dustox, Beautifly, and Vivillon are City Block+. Above first form Pokemon but below second form Pokemon. So smack dab in the middle. They're early game bug Pokemon.

Second form Pokemon, fully evolved or otherwise (with few exceptions), [previously] standalone Pokemon, final forms of baby Pokemon (except Snorlax, Lucario, Magmortar, and Electivire), and Butterfree, Beedrill , and Mareanie are MCB+. They're scaled to the feats of Magneton, Dugtrio, Magcargo, and Onix(?). They're also scaled to the moves Earth Power, Twister, and Hurricane, which we agreed would apply to the second forms, otherwise Pidgey would be MCB+ and we'd be back to square one.

Fossils except for Aerodactyl are Small Town due to the feat of Rampardos. If Rampardos' feat becomes debunked, they go to Aerodactyl's level.

Third form Pokemon (including Electivire and Magmortar), and some second form and standalone Pokemon are Town level, likely City level. Since that "some" is quite controversial and uncertain, I shall name these ones. To be clear, the only way those non-third-form-Pokemon are of this stage are if they can Mega Evolve (Too many to name. Examples would be Kangaskhan and Houndoom), are incredibly rare and powerful (Arcanine, Snorlax, Spiritomb, Vespiquen, Rotom, and Zoroark), evolutions of previously standalone Pokemon (Lickilicky, Weavile, Honchkrow, Mismagius, Yanmega, Gliscor, Tangrowth, Ambipom, and Probopass), have the feat (Zebstrika and Gyarados) or scaling for it (Ninetales scales to Arcanine, Tauros scales to Kangaskhan, Froslass scales to Glailie,, and Golisopod, Milotic, School Wishiwashi, Dhelmise, Toxapex, and Wailord scales to Gyarados, Hariyama and Hawlucha scale to Machamp), or are both, late game and late evolving Pokemon (Mienshao, Bisharp, Braviary, and Mandibuzz. Crabominable can literally not evolve until the end of the game so him too). Significant hype from different medias, or being dragons get questioned.

Megas scale to Abomasnow's City+ feat, and they get an "at least" due to Abomasnow's feat being in base. Except Mega Audino.

Pseudos scale to Tyranitar's 7-A feat. If they have a Mega Form or a Totem-boosted form, they get an "at least".

Legendaries under High 7-A or are featless are scaled to Moltres' casual High 7-A feat. Because of common sense. Silvally is treated as a legendary.

Pokemon that are non-conforming to this are Rhydon and Rhyperior, Abomasnow, and Volcarona, as they have their own feats, Wobbuffett, who can't really fight and is just durability and countering, and Mega Audino, as I don't know exactly where it goes.

Controversy started stirring up over level scaling. Furthermore, I have questions about how we should tier Lapras, Togekiss, Turtonator, Bewear, Druddigon, Excadrill, Zanzgoose, and Seviper. All of these are MCB+, but have good reason to be Town level, likely City level. Same case with the Eeveelutions, as they're final forms of starter Pokemon, but so is the 8-A Raichu, while Eevee is scaled to Pikachu. But in the games where Pikachu is a starter, it can't evolve, while Eevee can when it's a starter.

Speed
We agreed for Transonic, but I was recently thinking about something else: High Hypersonic. To keep things recent, Seismic Toss was calced by DT to be Mach 28. The Thunder family of moves are CtG (all come from the sky, and Thunder is clearly from the clouds, and they're weaker versions of the same move. Furthermore, 10 Million Volt Thunderbolt is also CtG, while its just a boosted Thunderbolt), Ion Deluge scatters negatively charged electrons (massive outlier), Hitmonchan is Mach 22, Manectric can create thunderclouds and fire lightning, Ash's Pikachu is in the game and is Mach 597, many Pikachus can cause lighting storms, and Zebstrika is lightning speed. Tbh, HHS sounds relatively low now.
 
I agree with these, the thing is that a lot of pokemon and trainers profiles are still not revised. I asked to Aiden, but he seems more busy in creating profile rather than fix the remaning ones.
 
I think baby Pokemons/ weakest Pokemons should still be Transonic. But I agree with everything else
 
Actually I got a question. Why can't fossils scale to other fully evolved Pokemon. Especially Pokemon like Tyrantrum who are consider extremely powerful.
 
Mostly because they'd be 8-A, as they're 2 stage Pokémon, but they have feats that put them higher.
 
Why do Toxapex and Ninetails and all them scale to their version exclusive counterparts? Because they're version exclusive? That doesn't really... Make sense. I mean it makes sense for a Meta reason, but in verse, there's no way Toxapex could box with Gyarados. Hariama vs thousand punch Machamp? Ha!
 
Toxapex scales because Mareanie scales to Corsola. Ninetales and Arcanine scale because version exclusives are about the same thing. Hariyama, Hawlucha, and Machamp were all stated to be able to soar with each other in Hawlucha's Pokedex entry.
 
Dark649 said:
I agree with these, the thing is that a lot of pokemon and trainers profiles are still not revised. I asked to Aiden, but he seems more busy in creating profile rather than fix the remaning ones.
Sorry, sometimes i can't focus in one thing :/
 
AidenBrooks999 said:
Sorry, sometimes i can't focus in one thing :/
Don't worry i will fix them tomorrow, the hard thing is the scaling for a few trainers.
 
I'm sorry for speaking up so wordily, but if it matters, I'm not entirely comfortable with this.

I think it's good that we want to make our pages neat & create a scaling system that works for our Wiki & Pokemon.... But if the goal is simply neatness & efficiency....

Then doesn't this mean making hundreds of new profiles, that we'll have to dedicate tons of time to, when, even if we do dig up tons of feats or scaling based in official materials, many of the Pokemon may not get anything supporting their stats other than this scaling system which we made for the sake of HAVING a scaling system!


Before Cal edited them, our page on Pokemon said to avoid scaling them except to foes who they've shown to consistently be on par with or better, IIRC. I don't remember the exact text unfortunately.

Most non-legendary Pokemon haven't had multiple, consistent showings of them that support scaling to one another, even with the anime's numerous battles, so I'd question why we'd scale based on their evolutionary stages to one another.


It's true that a Pokemon that has evolved should be stronger than its pre-evolution, but among hundreds of species with different abilities, biology, behaviour, etcetera, I would guess that HOW much stronger varies wildly. And there ARE weak & strong single-stage Pokemon, too.

As an example, Pidgeotto can't be found wild in multiple regions, even if its pre-evolutions can, & Pidgeot is less common. When it can't be found wild in such regions, why are we scaling it to Pokemon found there, when the power of Pokemon of a certain evolutionary stage aren't necessarily all comparable?

Yet with this revision, we'd scale it to a number of Pokemon because its feat & that it's a 2nd stage Pokemon. Many species of which it hasn't been officially shown to be on-par with. Everything from Farfetch'd & Floette to Onix & Zweilous!


It's a great amount of effort, & there are some fairly valid basises for scaling some species to one another.... But among so many diverse kinds, which Pokemon evolve & when doesn't seem like that strong a basis. Nor do I feel we should assume that all Pokemon that got evolutions in later generations were meant to be on par with all other Pokemon not part of an evolutionary line.


The goal of this revision seems to be making the pages more neat, less confusing, & having a scaling system, & while I've no doubt we're all willing to edit the ratings as things come up....

This would create a lot of busywork creating profiles, editing stats, etcetera, for many Pokemon. Some may lack any basis for their stats other than a system made for the sake of scaling. Besides that, I worry that using such a scaling system promotes having a scaling system & being neat over being accurate.

I'm doubtful it would be less work than just properly finding official instances of scaling & feats & I'd question if it's worth having a scaling system that ends up being inaccurate or supporting otherwise unsupported stats in the long run.


Sorry if anyone minds this post.
 
Look man, this is how we are going to scale for now. It isn't a perfect solution, but it's the best we got. We aren't going to make hundreds of files due to this. And even if we did, we'd edit them like every other verse. Simple as that. Can you please just drop the issue. Wwe got a method and we are sticking to it.
 
I just think the basis for the scaling is shaky, not consistent with how we've scaled in the past, & it'll create a lot of work that may end up being negated by official materials, or in other cases a lack of official material supporting it, & then we'll have pages with stats that are a product of a shaky scaling system made for the sake of having a scaling system at all & for the sake of having neater pages, as opposed to accurate pages.

And even if it's not hundreds, it's a lot of pages to make & edit, isn't it?

Sorry for butting in.
 
This is because we aren't doing things how we used to. Simple as that. Multiple Admins, DM's and Bureaucrats agree to this scaling. This is what we will be doing from here on out. We will fix it as time goes out. Our files before were even more shaky anyway, matter of fact they were crap in all honesty. This scaling is much better than the other scaling either way. Please drop this.
 
I'm sorry, but why is it better? We based the profiles before on feats & multiple instances of official, consistent scaling, right? Isn't that our standard for any setting?

Stats are a product of balancing gameplay, as are when a Pokemon evolves, & to a lesser extent, so is how many evolutionary stages it has. Evolutionary lines & evolving, while also a product of designs, are also largely a product of game mechanics, & not necessarily reliable indication of a general power level.

Why switch to one that assumes numerous species are consistently comparable to one another?
 
I agree with Dragonmasterxyz. We have to go with something practically applicable. I would appreciate if you drop this issue.
 
Alot of the reasons for the suggestion seems to apply to the electric pokemon and electric moves for the most part. But since it's possible for the said Pokemon to dodge these moves via accuracy, I suppose it's ok.
 
Normal, non-evolving rare Pokémon only found in the safari zone, both with the exact opposite gender ratio. This wasn't exactly uncommon
 
The real cal howard said:
Normal, non-evolving rare Pokémon only found in the safari zone, both with the exact opposite gender ratio. This wasn't exactly uncommo
That's totally wrong.


Tauros counterpart is miltank. He has nothing to do with Kanghaskahn
 
Uh, pretty sure at best it would be treated as headcanon or speculation, especially since it's contradicted with the existence of miltank...
 
Adding onto that, isn't the Safari Zone for Pokemon imported from other regions? So Tauros & Kangaskhan aren't necessarily found together normally. The two being there could just have been a coincidence based on which species the SZ's organizers wanted in there.

Tauros & Milktank, however, share a common & seemingly more natural common habitat in Routes 38 & 39 of Kanto's neighbouring region, Johto.

Also, you asked about the "speed deal". Looking at the opening post, that mentions Seismic Toss. I'm not sure who DT is, (I assume DontTalk) but I did find this recent calc about ST on the wiki: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Seismic_Toss_on_a_Wailord

I also found this off-site calc that we have linked on Charizard's page, if that's worth anything: http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/charizard-shows-a-true-seismic-toss-pokemon-anime.26399/

But Seismic Toss's speed in the former calc comes from a move animation, & one in secondary canon, no less. Haven't we had a bit of contention over using move animations from games before, like with Rain Dance ? Animations not being realistic depictions of the attacks, among other reasons?
 
I dropped Tauros eight hours ago. Why are you bringing it back up?

No offense to DT, as he's the most trustworthy person on this site, and I respect him and value his friendship, but he's very much overly critical with the verse. Rain Dance wasn't used because of the fact that it does no damage whatsoever. If it's because of attack animations, then that is literally the most biased downplay I have ever seen, when far higher feats come from attack animations from different verses (Looking at you Sephiroth).
 
Sorry about bringing up the dead topic of Tauros.

Anyway, I'd assume when you mention Sephiroth, you're referring to his Supernova. But that attack & animation is only done by Safer-Sephiroth, a major character in the story. The same isn't necessarily true of Seismic Toss or Rain Dance or Sunny Day.

The animation for ST is from Pokemon Battle Revolution, & you could use Seismic Toss in the underground Crystal Colosseum & they'd still throw Wailord into space despite that it would probably smash into -& likely through- the cavern ceiling first.

ST's animation isn't some major character's unique attack nor does it happen as part of a battle in a story, or a specific location; It's the same in many places, even when it may not make sense for it to be.
 
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