Idk what you mean by this but idk whose clammering to use the lesser evolved form unless its super specific or a fan-favourite like Pikachu.
People who want specific Pokemon, but which fit into specific tierings. Useful for tournaments.
Yeah, theyre counted as different species and have separate dex entries
Separate species but often some of those species will have been other species previously, which affects experience, among other things.
Didnt say it was, its not like we have much official singular feats for each Pokemon and merely scale them off huge feats in 1 single Pokedex entry... which is fine, but doesnt feel entirely accurate. Especially this Abomasnow feat, which i feel fits more into Environmental Destruction types of AP for creating a blizzard since thats its natural ability.
Neutral on this. Being considerate of how many feats at what level we have is important, IMHO.
Yeah so...feels like more ground to give any of these pre-evolutions their own profile than anything.
No.
It would be wasteful to repeat a bunch of info that the higher stages are also going to have.
It would be tedious for viewers to have to go to multiple pages to check a single evolutionary line.
& it would be shamefully negligent to index only 1 or 2 or a few specific members of an evolutionary line.
& the capabilities & behaviour of the evolutionary line members often inform one another; Checking what 1 might do can help infer what the other might do.
Feats are shared, etc.
Not to mention often nearly half or more of a final stage's level-up movepool AND its whole Egg Move movepool will be shared with its pre-evolutions.
IDK why you're so deadset on splitting evolutionary stages, but I am wholely opposed.
As I see it, it takes up space with extra text & extra pages by splitting blatantly connected evolutionary lines because of moderate differences, when even in most cases, the split evolutions will often share huge portions of typing, movepool, feats & abilities.
ORAS is kinda the only case, and even then thats some huge retelling of the original but idk the Pokemon timeline
GameFreak abandons numerous game elements, that doesn't mean they aren't canon.
& little suggests that trainer-bred Pokemon are created differently.
Daycare: In EVERY GENERATION they say they have no idea how the Egg got there, whether the worker is elderly or young, & whether the player character is as young as in G/S/C or as old as in B/W or X/Y.
& in S/V, Eggs are acquired through picnics with the player doing practically nothing.
"According to a girl in
Solaceon Town, where one of many
Pokémon Day Cares are located, no one has ever seen a Pokémon lay an Egg, and thus, it is not confirmed that this is how they appear. According to Professor Elm, as quoted by a man in
Hearthome City, and a
Monsieur in
Coumarine City, Eggs are not actually eggs and are more like "cradles".".
Which is to say whether Pokemon do or don't lay Eggs, & thus, have Egg Moves in the wild is an uncertainty.
& keep in mind, Elm is the Professor who SPECIALIZES in studying Pokemon Eggs.
Not to mention, in ANY Johto game, check in his residence (His home, not his lab, in New Bark Town.), & you can find this:
POKEMON. Where do they come from? Where are they going? Why has
no one ever witnessed a POKEMON's birth? I want to know! I will
dedicate my life to the study of POKEMON!
... It's a part of PROF.ELM's research papers.
It is in Gold, Silver, Crystal, HG/SS.
& there's no reason Elm would be mincing words there. He's not talking to the player character, it's his own research papers in the privacy of his own home!
Nobody has EVER seen a Pokemon's birth, & this is backed up by the people who watch Pokemon where the Eggs show up only "finding" them (That's the wording.) & invariably being at a loss for explanation as to how the Egg got there.
So it's quite possible Wild Pokemon produce Eggs, & thus, Egg moves as well.
& in fact, fact-checking, OR/AS ISN'T the only circumstance!
bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net
That's Wild Egg Moves possible in Gen 6, 7, 8 & 9!
& even if it is uncommon, they are species, not individuals, so it's not like the Pokemon featured in matches are going to have a strict origin that locks them to 1 region.
MAYBE you could argue they should be P&A that can be restricted in matches or such since not all wild Pokemon -Even though many can- will have them?
Adding every Egg move just for the possibility that a few members of the species cna learn it sounds more for individual Pokemon cases tbh. As much as it gives them all extra power, I dont think Egg moves should be a necessary section in regards to Species.
See above.
Also, we document even bit feats, & the vast majority of Pokemon profiled are not individuals.
It may be more work, but that doesn't mean we should just leave out info on possible factors.
I would say the same of any kind of weaknesses that come up. We don't exclude those either, because we are an indexing site first.
Idk what you mean exactly but we cant give a Species profile absolutely every unique move it could have anyway
We document the moves the species can naturally learn. I don't see the issue.
Just because there are similarities does not mean theyre not completely different classes of Pokemon with huge differences between themself that would opt for separate profiles. They aren't 'too similar' in the slightest
Other characters & monsters can have huge gaps in statistics & differences in P&A. We separate them with keys & tabbers.
Not to mention mid-battle evolution is a thing in a lot of media, Pokemon included.
Separating evolutionary lines just complicates the reading & documentation.
Theres repeating information on every Pokemon profile...I dont see why keeping two separate Pokemon in one tier category is exactly bound-breaking, or why its even bad to have repeating factors
Then that repeating information needs to be cleaned up.
& don't say it's the pre-evolution moves or feats. We have "Same as before" & whatnot for that.
If you want to separate Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade, I say it should be done with redirects, tabbers & keys, so that we don't have to separate from the things that literally turn into the form they are, & provide much of their experience, P&A.
Pretty sure audience would rather their favourite mons be represented in a separate profile than having to share just because theyre split evo forms...Its not exactly an inconvenience to give separate Pokemon separate profiles, if anything its easier for them to look at one profile for one character than like, 4 different ones at a time.
I would say audiences wouldn't have to check 2 pages to check 1 evolutionary line.
Heck, if you separate them, what if audience members don't know one of the alternate pages doesn't exist & gets upset?
They are completely separate Pokemon (Like you are literally listing a ton of differences they have), they just share pre-evolutions. I dont know why you see it as forcing viewers when this wiki has No Verse-size limit AND Pokemon Species all having their own separate profile and similar scalings anway.
Mate.
Both are Psychic type.
Both share Egg-moves.
Both share tons of Level-Up moves.
They share tons of Powers & Abilities, scaling & feats.
Both share an Evolutionary line.
Their statistics would be close to identical.
I seriously don't think we should create a 2nd page & thus cause disorganization & mild page/text bloat just because the 2 final evolutions are kind of popular.
If they're notable, a redirect should suffice.
Yeah, and thus their final forms scale above unless theres some huge metamorphosis change
Obviously. That's how final forms work, but that doesn't mean we separate them. We have profiles that jump multiple tiers between keys.
All these points about differences could easily be justified into the argument of giving separate profiles. Not that I want separate profiles for each pokemon pre-evolution (unnecessary), but I dont see why very clearly separate Pokemon with different identities have to be grouped together in 1 profile,
Because they have a ton of abilities from the same sources (The level-up movepools & P&A), the same or near-identical typing, & it being intuitive.
If someone looks up their starter, & then looks for its final form or realizes "Dang this is too high tier for the match/tournament I wanna do" they then have to go & check more pages for the other evolutionary stages.
Or they wanna check a justification for a feat or a "same as before" & they have to go to a different page.
& you say you don't want separate profiles for each Pokemon pre-evolution, but that's hardly any better because you're proposing separating the final forms.
meanwhile mons like Throh and Sawk get their own separate profiles lol.
On this I agree. It could be argued the case of them (Or better yet, Volbeat & Illumise.) could be one where they're put into the same profile with redirects.
But as for why they're separate, they have no evolutionary connection, their entries don't mention each other, & while they have similar TM/TR learnsets, their only shared Level-Up moves are Leer, Focus Energy, Bulk Up, Endure & Reversal. 5 out of 13. & not even very uncommon moves among Fighting-type.
Not to mention, they use entirely different Fighting styles. Sawk is the Karate Pokemon, which is more about strikes, & Throh is the Judo Pokemon, which is more about throws.
We could argue they should share a profile, but I'd rather do it in its own thread, since this is a busy one with its own topics as is.
Like a Gallade and Gardevoir are very different, and branched evolutions are symbolistic of actual evolution into different species entirely from one common ancestor.
I believe branched evolution is symbolized by regional forms.
But as mentioned, Gallade & Gardevoir have a typing in common, are born & evolve from the same things (Even if different evolutionary histories caused Gallade & Gardevoir to originate, no matter how many of either of them you checked, they still evolve from the same species.), & share many of the same feats, powers & abilities & scaling.
The main differences, besides gender, are 1 type (Versus 1 type in common.), maybe half their movepool, if that (Versus half their movepool in common.), & moderately different but still clearly similar appearances, as well as a couple of Pokedex entries the other lacks.
I don't think it's enough to split their profile, & with it, complicate explaining their stuff.
Idk why you're talking about this being a hobby, i didn't say anything against that in the slightest.
Because you said:
Honestly though, who exactly wants to use the base/2nd stage forms though? In exception to mons like Pikachu, Eevee and Jigglypuff i guess, but I feel the power levels of lesser Pokemon are just kinda irrelevant compared to using the Pokemon at its strongest.
I know theres a lot of spam matchups like 'Caterpie vs w/e' but lowkey dk if we need to mandatory give a tiering to random Pre-evos anymore
My point was none of what we do is mandatory. It is recreational.
It's all done as a hobby. But we still have standards & policy, because we want to provide good information in a neat & organized way, & we shouldn't neglect certain info just because some people don't care about it.
The info should be there so it is conveniently accessible & accurate.
I don't think it looks bad, or anyone cares that you missed Darumaka from Darmanitan. Like it doesnt hurt to put on the profile but atp it just saves more lazy sentences like 'comparable to other first-stage evolutions' (cause not every pokemon can physically create earthquakes like a diglett or smthn, this is a very weird verse to scale) for tabs that just, will never be used regardless.
I have seen & participated in multiple matches over the years that used lower evolutionary stages.
& often they will be more than just "comparable to X", since again, often distinct movepools, P&A & behaviour. Not to mention there's been revisions waiting that others started about wanting to establish that they all scale to the scaling points equally.
Speaking as someone who's actually seen & debated in matches featuring Pokemon that aren't the final form, "Tabs that are never used regardless" is just lies.
Yh disambigs are cool but like, Idk, seems really disingenuous to not give separate profiles to clearly different branched evolutions entirely. And that fact that leads to the profile being named after the weak first stage pokemon instead of the fully evolved mon people are Actually wanting to look into the powers of.
My issue is that Pokemon like Gardevoir & Gallade aren't different enough, when they have a whole evolutionary line of feats, statements, half their typing, most of their appearance, their egg moves & at least half their level-up movepool in common, plus basically the same scaling points.
Plus, separating them into different profiles would just make writing their scaling & P&A justification clunkier, & make it more confusing for visitors to find all the members of the line.
If they didn't share an evolutionary line or so much of their movepools or their lines' Pokedex entries, then they'd probably seem different enough, is my opinion, but you can't just ignore the rest of their evolutionary line when our site's whole point is literally to index.
