Pokemon revision continuation

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I thought we didn't use Rain Dance because it was almost exclusively gained via TM only, so wouldn't scale to Pokemon's natural stats. It should be fine to use for Pokemon who can naturally learn it.

That said, the calc should probably be redone. No offense to Saikou, but his calc of it was rather messy.

 

[Imaginym]

There are actually a number of Pokemon that learn Rain Dance via level up, without the need for TM. http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rain_Dance_(move)#By_leveling_up

Squirtle, Zapdos, Lapras, Bronzong... even the supposed "weakest Dragon-type", Goomy; Although that last one could be argued as to aid the player in evolving Goomy's evolved from, Sliggoo, which can only evolve into Goodra during Rain.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Goodra can only evolve in natural rain, so that wouldn't help, but I digress.

All of Touhou's speed feats are attack animation based (aside from the feat we use to scale the high-tiers). And if not Sephiroth, then Eden.

 

[Imaginym]

I was saying that Rain Dance could be in Goomy's movepool as a product of developer intentions to give a hint to the player about how to fully evolve it. As opposed to the weakest Dragon-type getting whatever stats Rain Dance would yield. And yes, natural rain, only.

I also have no issues with FF's animation-based ratings for attacks unique to unique characters. I'm just saying, it's a bit odd to use Seismic Toss's PBR animation when no matter who the user, target or location is, it still ends up throwing them into space, whether it makes sense for it to not be an outlier for weaker users, or whether it makes sense in the location.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Seismic Toss has been portrayed as a global toss since Gold and Silver.

 

[Imaginym]

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Seismic_Toss_(move)

I can agree on that. But it can still be used in places where it doesn't make sense to be performing a global toss in that location, or doesn't make sense for that user to use it. Or by Pokemon who it would seem strange to use a move that has had early descriptions like: "

A Fighting-type attack. Throws the target with enough force to flip the world upside down.

Wouldn't it seem outlier-ish for things like Mankey & Makuhita to be performing that?

If the descriptions matter, it's most recent one is: "The target is thrown using the power of gravity. It inflicts damage equal to the user's level."

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

And a ki wielding warrior can fight a known criminal with soul powers in the middle of a crowded military base. Your point?

 

[Imaginym]

The point is using an animation that several non-unique characters can use, even when a global toss isn't feasible to perform & the animation being the same no matter who performs it. Throwing them through a cave ceiling & having them fall back down into the cave, throwing them while underwater, etc.... Yet each time, it's still a global toss.

Not to mention the outlier-ish ness of the AP it yields for some species. AN's low end puts it at Small City Level. Out of those, only Machamp, Pinsir & Hariyama even reach "At least Town level, likely City level", yet the low end is Small City Level. Most of the other Pokemon that learn ST by level up aren't very close to SCL.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Look below.

 

[Imaginym]

Look below.

I'm sorry to say, I don't understand your arguement. Is it the topics for this thread being the Tiering System, Attack Potency, Speed & Pokémon & hence we should accept the feat by the animation?

It may also be worth mentioning that the anime consistently portrays the move as grabbing the opponent, bringing them into the air, & then throwing or slamming them down. As opposed to throwing them around the world. This also matches up with the move's recent descriptions of using the power of gravity.

In any case, if people DO agree that we should accept that animation which is the same among all those users as basis for an attack speed or AP rating, I feel we should also look at some of the other animations, such as those for Magnitude, Earthquake, & Fissure in the Stadium games & PBR, if we haven't already.

It may also be worth considering http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Natural_objects

The destruction of Natural objects in the animations could yield to some of the attacks listed on that page -although many do already- having stats we can apply to Pokemon, such as Hyper Voice or Rock Slide breaking some rocks.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

ON the calc.

 

[AidenBrooks999]

I thought we didn't use Rain Dance because it was almost exclusively gained via TM only, so wouldn't scale to Pokemon's natural stats. It should be fine to use for Pokemon who can naturally learn it.

That said, the calc should probably be redone. No offense to Saikou, but his calc of it was rather messy.

Rain Dance would at best fall under "environtmental damage"

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Two stage evolutions are 8-A for the most part. Luckily for Zoroark, it's one of the exceptions, but just letting you know. Also, I didn't get to it yet.

 

[Imaginym]

ON the calc.

I see. Well, nonetheless, it seems like it was there was also some issue over using a throwing speed to get a character's attack speed.

Not to mention PBR's animation isn't consistent with the anime , which the descriptions do match up with. From Kanto to Black & White, Seismic Toss is portrayed as grabbing the opponent & going into the air, then slamming or throwing them back down.

Throwing them down to the earth from up high matches up with the move's Japanese name of "ÒüíÒüìÒéàÒüåÒü¬ÒüÆ Earth Throw " & it being described as a "gravity-fed throw" or "throwing target using the power of gravity", as opposed to throwing them against it & sending them into space to land again.

The game animations don't have as much freedom as the anime to accurately depict moves either, when they have to be modelled for so many Pokemon. Making models & poses, even in PBR, for every Pokemon grabbing the foe with Seismic Toss, holding them & then throwing or slamming them would be extremely impractical. So it would be no wonder if that's why they didn't do it & the same is likely true of Gen 6 & 7.

Yet the anime remains largely consistent with its version, which portrays it as a grab & a downward throw or slam, throughout the years, matches in-game descriptions, & most of the other game animations are more abstract, -like Gold & Silver's showing the user throwing a globe at the opponent- or match up with the anime's "going up, & bringing the foe down", like Gen 3, 4 & 5's animations.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

After skimming half the thread, I have an opinion on the speed, sure all Pokemon can dodge them technically but wouldn't that apply to only trained mons with some exceptions, wouldn't it better albeit way more time consuming to figure out the first instance of every one of those moves being used in game by an npc or wild mob and the scale it to every mon that is encountered after said mon with the move in question? If there's no need that's fine or if it doesn't matter but this coukd be a answer to the question despite being time consuming, I understand if no one wants to bother with it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It would simply be for the Pokemon upwards of 8-B.