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I'm sorry to learn that you feel that way.
Hopefully my request in the Content Revision Promotion Thread helps this thread gain some much-needed traction.
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I am honestly not sure how to throughly tackle this issue, as I fear our Pokemon pages will once again turn into a chaotic and messy cluster of sparse information wildly taken from every source possible, instead of trying to keep a linear coherence.
While a little arbitrary, I might see as reasonable to treat everything unrelated to mainline games as support as long as they don't meet major contradiciton, but while also staying quite careful to not restore the former composites.
While a little arbitrary, I might see as reasonable to treat everything unrelated to mainline games as support as long as they don't meet major contradiciton, but while also staying quite careful to not restore the former composites.
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It's alright, the only thing making me sad rn is how barren the thread is of people willing to help
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We can use as many agreements as we can get, tbh
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That'd be good. Thing is mate, the profiles aren't as chaotic as they seem. Clear up the pmd stuff and most powers will stay consistent throughout the series with at most minor additions from the anime.
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I mean, profiles used to have (and some still have) material from literally everything, including Ranger, Pokepark, Conquest, even the damn cards, and all of these have their respective mechanics, items etc... which stray away from the norm.
Of course they would be fine to include for profiles specific for those games or media, but it becomes a mess when you open the gates to everything.
I'm especially wary of legendary scaling, I know you've talked about it for like 4 pages, but my two cents is about stuff like Zygarde squaring off with Necrozma, which is a manga exclusive, or the various Darkrais, which are totally fine for me to consider separate entities but it becomes strange to cram them all in one, if we do it. Same is for Mewtwo and other legendaries, even if they are supposed to be single entities in each universe/continuity, I'd prefer to not assume they all share the same abilities even if some are exclusive to one piece of media.
Of course they would be fine to include for profiles specific for those games or media, but it becomes a mess when you open the gates to everything.
I'm especially wary of legendary scaling, I know you've talked about it for like 4 pages, but my two cents is about stuff like Zygarde squaring off with Necrozma, which is a manga exclusive, or the various Darkrais, which are totally fine for me to consider separate entities but it becomes strange to cram them all in one, if we do it. Same is for Mewtwo and other legendaries, even if they are supposed to be single entities in each universe/continuity, I'd prefer to not assume they all share the same abilities even if some are exclusive to one piece of media.
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Agree with Saman
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I'll reply a bit later
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Ranger is fine cause it is canon. The rest are definitely questionable.
I doubt most of these are big enough to be notable here.
Which is why we discussed treating some of them as species when it feels appropriate, thus making a varies tier viable and fixing some scaling issues.
Then there's the fact that the feats, like Zygard fighting Necrozma, give us actual proper scaling. The issue with the games has always been that we have barely any interactions between legendaries and thus we don't know who is above whom, and thus having to scale legendaries to dumb stuff like scaling Mewtwo to High 6-A because he was stated to be the strongest somewhere in Heart Gold or whatever. The other content gives us the right context and showings and all we have to do is filter out outliers and scaling due to pokemon with varying degrees of power. Darkrai maybe separate entities as a whole, but they are still a species which share the same powers. It'd make sense for them to vary in power as that is what every species of pokemon does.
I don't think that's really reasonable, not fully at least. It makes sense that we don't add something like that one and only time Mewtwo manipulated time in the anime, but when it comes to something like petrification (appears in manga and anime) or BFR (appears in Pokken, Ranger, which is canon and i'm pretty sure there was some other appearance) then I'd say it is a power that is shown to be consistent across the portrayal. Basically, I think as long as it doesn't contradict anything shown it should be added as the data collected on a Pokemon by scientist remains largly the same across all media, whether it is a singular entity or not. The tiers do need more discussion in that sense but I think a solid middle ground can be found.
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So do you agree with undoing the change or not?
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Would this undo the change or double down on it?
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Yes, I know.
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...No. Also Rainbow Rocket Giovanni is two of those.
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Yes
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I'm convinced none of you even want it back. How many people have even agreed with the change?
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We're at a sort of semi-stalemate staff-wise. I tried calling more staff, in fact a good chunk of staff here came cause I called them.
I will say, Saman seems to have changed his mind. This means we're currently leading in points towards agreement.
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So it's up to the staff then?
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If that's the case, I'll simply have to make a Pokemon Verse-Specific Ability that the mods can't ignore.
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There's the fact that feats, like Zygard fighting Necrozma, give us a proper escalation.
I'm not sure about the game, we don't know where it is scaled in the games but in the anime the Giant Rock that was a relative of Zygarde in its complete form required absorbing city crystal
Anistar to do a presumed continental level feat while necrozma in the anime has level 4B feats so I don't think zygarde scales necrozma apart in the anime I remember that both tapu koko gladion ash mother beast legend scale to solgaleo lunala and necrozma but it seems like an atypical value similar to cyntia crashing a little with dialga and palkia when eternatux is considered a great threat
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Saman It didn't seem appropriate to use manga feats by Zygarde and other legendaries for another medium, I think we should ask him to comment when he has time
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Bruh are you translating your messages through a translator? Cause damn is it hard to understand you.
Angways just because there are feats that exist in one media and not the other means nothing beyond the fact that it gives us incomplete scaling. By using all forms of media and by deleting contradictions we can make a better scaling than having to grasp at straws to scale some of the legendaries.
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I mean it's a bit contradictory when the anime goes out of its way to say that something that scales to Zygarde at its strongest form needs multiple items to upgrade it to achieve a near planet tier feat and in the games its best feats are scaling to the ultimate weapon which is planet tier but suddenly we scale it to a legendary with better feats in both the anime and the game. Why does the manga do this even though the other two consciously leave it at planet tier to Zygarde? Not only is it weird but you're taking the strongest version of a single medium and denying the other two versions in the anime and game because you're taking the feat from the manga but denying what the other mediums say which if anything supports the planet tier interpretation of Zygarde.
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By using all forms of media and removing contradictions, we can achieve better scaling than having to grasp at straws to scale some of the legendaries. However, two media make it clear that Zygarde is consistently planet-level: the games, anime, and even the manga rarely scale Mega Rayquaza to Zygarde, but in the manga, a planet-level meteor is a big deal when according to the wiki, Rayquaza is universe-level. The same goes for other cases like Geneset and the Tao trio scaling to higher levels when Kyuren threatens regions that are considered very dangerous. Even the manga is rare with Zygarde scaling to Necrozma, which is the only media that shows it fighting, which is what we get most of the legendaries' scaling from.
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The thing is we never see how far those feats can actually go, we never see the limit ourselves. Sure, by themselves they're around planet level, but not only is Destructive Capacity ≠ Attack Potency, something that is especially true for Pokemon, but those weapons and events also pose a threat to the world of Pokemon as a whole which includes characters who scale down from Necrozma.
I'd argue instead that the idea of scaling every legendary differently is more of a thing that people try to force onto Pokemon rather than something true. As I said DC ≠ AP, just because one's feat doesn't have the same levels of destruction does not mean they don't scale to the AP, that's one of the big rules of powerscaling that's always been around. Rayquaza's feat was amazing because it saved the earth, not to mention the meteor travelled at speeds fast enough to cross like half the galaxy, making it far more dangerous than just your average meteor. The ultimate weapon threatened earth as a whole which includes characters who do scale down from Necrozma like the Tapus.
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I've already replied to the overall idea of this part above
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expand... The problem is that we never see how far those feats can go, we never see the limit for Pokémon, but those and events also pose a threat to the world of Pokémon as a whole, which includes the characters. who are inferior to Necrozma
I mean, the anime is pretty clear, the weather trio and the giant rock zygarde need the crystals to increase their ap since the energy is that it improves their ap dc to reach planetary rank is enough evidence that their ap or dc doesn't is at that level or beyond .groudon and kiogre in manga expend their primal forms to stop meteors smaller than delta rayquaza required mega evolution to stop meteor delta
which makes it much more dangerous than an average meteorite dexio and others and others didn't even know about alola before going there so it's doubtful that zinnia and the dragon clan knew about alola or the alola legendaries and if they would be affected by the meteorite. delta, so the scale of the meteorite is strange. Basically, it's where we get the scaling for almost everything legendary, rather than the more consistent planet level for legendaries.
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In any case I don't think zygarde doesn't have scaling like it says in the anime at least it's comparable to the weather trio and giant rock that has continental abilities and the game scales up to the ultimate weapon and legendary ones that scale to the ultimate weapon like xerneas yveltar and the weather trio being quite consistent with other planetary level abilities like the abilities of victini and the unova dragon duo in their movie or mewto's casual abilities to destroy the world and descriptions of the pokedex also depends on whether you scale zygarde to ash from the alola league and gladion who are declared the strongest rivals which puts it above xyz ash and alan and I would put it something related to tapu koko and solgaleo which are similar to necrozma which has its planetary feat
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I'mma be real with you mate the grammar in this part is so bad that I am struggling to understand your points.
I also don't see how the meteor point changes anything since yet again, meteors vary in power and Groudon and Kyogre are known to be far below Rayquaza.
Alola is part of the world so there's no reason to believe that nobody knows about it, it's not some mystical land that got discovered, it is an established part of the world. I think legendaries should interscale generally similarly to how normal pokemon interscale.
This is actually related to something I want to push for later on. The scaling we see in the anime actually suggests many Pokemon that appear post-alola or even pre-alola actually downscale from those who scale to Necrozma. An example would be Alain and Steven, who are comparable to Ash who is superior to Tapu Koko, fighting against Primal Groudon and having a hard time. We have a percieved notion that this is an outlier cause we just haaaave to scale PG to a lower tier, but if the main legendary Pokemon with few exceptions are comparable or use a varies tier due to being a species, it starts making more sense.
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I also don't see how the meteor point changes anything since, again, meteors vary in power and Groudon and Kyogre are known to be far behind Rayquaza.
Those meteorites were inferior to the delta meteorite and we know how destructive the delta meteorite was, being a threat to the planet. The difference between rayquaza, kiogre and groudon is not that big, this one constantly requires mega to stop them. These meteorites were of a level that we know was lower than the delta meteorite. Giovanni even says it in the manga after seeing Kiogre and Groudon stop the little ones.
who are comparable to Ash, who is superior to Tapu Koko, fights Primal Groudon and has a hard time. We have the notion that this is an outlier because we simply have to scale PG to a lower level, but if the main legendary Pokémon, with few exceptions, are comparable or use multiple levels due to being one species, it starts to make more sense. .
Alan does not climb to Ash, during sm he was stopped by xyz ash. It is specifically mentioned that Ash and Gladion are the strongest rivals at the time of the Alola League. End! The confrontation between the strongest rivals! Also, Ash has become much stronger than in previous leagues and even Tapu Koko seems to scale more than Journey Ash in the Alola battle royale and this is just fighting the base necrozma with lunala energy that was only planetary since his Star level feats come from his Necrozma Ultra form in the anime not from the base
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Alola is part of the world, so there is no reason to believe that anyone knows of its existence. It is not a mystical land that was discovered, it is an established part of the world. I think legendary Pokémon should scale with each other similarly to how normal Pokémon do.
Sycamore directly calls it the Distant Region in the manga and they didn't seem to have much knowledge of Alola. Lusamine also didn't seem to know Solgaleo or Lunala in the game and was literally dragged through Necrozma's base and Lusamine searched for these legends. So why would Zinnia know these legends and their power when someone like Lusamine who sought them out didn't know their full power? We have something that indicates that Zinnia would know about the power of the legends of Alola.
We have the perceived notion that this is an outlier because we simply have to scale PG to a lower level, but if the main legendary Pokémon, with few exceptions, are comparable or use a variable level for being a species, it starts to have . more sense. I mean, these have been consistently placed on the planetary level in any case, almost all of his feats are the same on the planetary level for Zygarde, taking his fight with Necrozma out of the manga. In any case, what Samma said about breaking away and doing a specific profile of the Zygarde manga wouldn't be any better. and what they specifically scale from the manga without combining this with the game and its anime version, other cases mewto dialga palkia and giratina or Darkrai, are quite consistent or are species like Darkrai. so they can and have a variable level but zygarde is not
Sycamore directly calls it the Distant Region in the manga and they didn't seem to have much knowledge of Alola. Lusamine also didn't seem to know Solgaleo or Lunala in the game and was literally dragged through Necrozma's base and Lusamine searched for these legends. So why would Zinnia know these legends and their power when someone like Lusamine who sought them out didn't know their full power? We have something that indicates that Zinnia would know about the power of the legends of Alola.
We have the perceived notion that this is an outlier because we simply have to scale PG to a lower level, but if the main legendary Pokémon, with few exceptions, are comparable or use a variable level for being a species, it starts to have . more sense. I mean, these have been consistently placed on the planetary level in any case, almost all of his feats are the same on the planetary level for Zygarde, taking his fight with Necrozma out of the manga. In any case, what Samma said about breaking away and doing a specific profile of the Zygarde manga wouldn't be any better. and what they specifically scale from the manga without combining this with the game and its anime version, other cases mewto dialga palkia and giratina or Darkrai, are quite consistent or are species like Darkrai. so they can and have a variable level but zygarde is not
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The main problem I have with this is how will we put in the stats in here, since a version of mewtwo in the anime can turn mega by herself, and another version of mewtwo in the journey's anime is called the strongest pokemon by ash (who knows about the creation trio), and rainbow rocket implies that version of mega mewtwo scales above members of the CT, yet the mewtwo in the manga was getting beaten by deoxy's and zygarde. So do we do what deathbattle does and do a soft composite and make a "peak" version of that pokemon? Or do we seperate profiles based on their medium, but crossover some stuff between profiles
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