A tweak at the Pokemon Profile Standards page

[SamanPatou]

The Pokémon Profile Standards page features the following notion, which I find fundamentally wrong:

Intelligence: [...] and fight the likes of Machop which train in all martial arts), Gifted in battle as [3RD STAGE] (Should be superior to 1st and 2nd stage Pokémon and are able to consistently fight the likes of Machamp which have mastered all martial arts, as well as Alakazam

First, I don't see why all Pokémon should scale to Machop's line in terms of skill. They are masters of all martial arts, but that has to be taken with a grain of salt considering that non-fighting type mons don't make use of martial arts, but rather use various bodily features, superpowers and such things, which aren't related to martial arts.
It's like comparing an animal to a boxing champion, the latter would still be a gifted fighter, but the former utilizes a wholly different set of skills and features.

This rule is incorrect even when applied to other Fighting types. Being a master of all martial arts is Machop's line's exclusive behavior, not an inherent property of all fighting types. They come with their unique physiques, abilities, skills, styles and so on that can very well pose a threat to Machop's family for a pletora of reasons unrelated to them being as skilled in the same style.

Lastly, there is no reason to involve Alakazam either. Being super smart is its own pecualirity and it doesn't apply to any other Pokémon. Its abilities also aren't specifically stated to be related to battle, so it outperforming supercomputers, having a huge IQ and remembering everything doesn't automatically make it a genius fighter.
And while surely useful in certain situations, that is a far cry from all the other Pokémon having nowhere near the same intelligence, which still remain challenging thanks to their aforementioned skills and powers.

There is no doubt all mons are supposed to be able to fight each other, to a reasonable logical extent, but namecalling these two extraordinary cases is misleading and draws a wrong comparison.

 

[koopa3144]

So is this just getting rid of the Machamp line and Alakazam scaling or Above Average/Gifted intelligence scaling as a whole?

 

[SamanPatou]

The former

 

[Imaginym]

Lastly, there is no reason to involve Alakazam either. Being super smart is its own pecualirity and it doesn't apply to any other Pokémon. Its abilities also aren't specifically stated to be related to battle, so it outperforming supercomputers, having a huge IQ and remembering everything doesn't automatically make it a genius fighter.

I don't think this is entirely true.

Yellow	A Pokémon that can memorize anything. It never forgets what it learns—that's why this Pokémon is smart.

Stadium	A Pokémon that uses psychic power. It is highly intelligent and capable of instantly identifying its foe's weakness.

Diamond	Its superb memory lets it recall everything it has experienced from birth. Its IQ exceeds 5,000.
Pearl	Its highly developed brain is on par with a supercomputer. It can use all forms of psychic abilities.

Silver	Its brain cells multiply continually until it dies. As a result, it remembers everything.

Legends: Arceus	The longer Alakazam lives, the larger and heavier its head becomes. Our tests have shown that the strength of its psychic powers correlates positively to the weight of its head.

Crystal	It has an IQ of 5000. It calculates many things in order to gain the edge in every battle.

It does seem to use its intelligence in battle, & some aspects of it arguably seem related. (Like brain cells seemingly being related to psychic power for it.)


Neutral on the other matters of this thread, however.

 

[SamanPatou]

I meant to say that its intelligence is not entirely about combat, not that it doesn't employ it at all.

And still, it is its own ability. You can say the others can at least keep up, within a certain margin of assumption, but it's not an 1:1 comparison, as each Pokèmon has their own strengths, together with many other factors.

 

[Imaginym]

I meant to say that its intelligence is not entirely about combat, not that it doesn't employ it at all.

Surprising disparity, but understandable. It may be worthwhile for you to revise your opening post to make that actual intent of meaning more clearly & unambiguously expressed.

And still, it is its own ability. You can say the others can at least keep up, within a certain margin of assumption, but it's not an 1:1 comparison, as each Pokèmon has their own strengths, together with many other factors.

If they can keep up, even if it's not 1:1, isn't that comparability? Where do we draw the line not to express them as comparability?
0.75:1? 0.667:1? 0.5:1? 0.334:1? 0.25:1? 0.1667:1? 0.1428:1? Etc.

 

[SamanPatou]

Surprising disparity, but understandable. It may be worthwhile for you to revise your opening post to make that actual intent of meaning more clearly & unambiguously expressed.

Seemed clear enough to me, but I'll do.

If they can keep up, even if it's not 1:1, isn't that comparability? Where do we draw the line not to express them as comparability?
0.75:1? 0.667:1? 0.5:1? 0.334:1? 0.25:1? 0.1667:1? 0.1428:1? Etc.

It's not numerically quantifiable, it's a generic "they aren't totally incompetent", but to each their own weapons. Being able to predict and calculate doesn't necessarily mean you'll always be performant or capable of achieving something.
The situation, the abilities, the powers, everything, to each their own weapons.
Like, we have them being super intelligent, but another has super hot fire, or super large lightnings, or can teleport, and so on, there's so much variety of possible combinations that sometimes a Mon can be just competent enough but have the right ability at the right time.

 

[Imaginym]

Seemed clear enough to me, but I'll do.


It's not numerically quantifiable, it's a generic "they aren't totally incompetent", but to each their own weapons. Being able to predict and calculate doesn't necessarily mean you'll always be performant or capable of achieving something.

To me, "It calculates many things in order to gain the edge in every battle." sounds like it'll be calculating in every battle, & IQ of 5,000, thorough memory of the world, everything it learns & outthinking a supercomputer... seems hard to imagine it failing in significantly relatively less complex scenarios.

The situation, the abilities, the powers, everything, to each their own weapons.
Like, we have them being super intelligent, but another has super hot fire, or super large lightnings, or can teleport, and so on, there's so much variety of possible combinations that sometimes a Mon can be just competent enough but have the right ability at the right time.

But what of comparability to Alakazam?
That's what I was concerned about when you said "And still, it is its own ability. You can say the others can at least keep up, within a certain margin of assumption, but it's not an 1:1 comparison, as each Pokèmon has their own strengths, together with many other factors.".

Unquantifiable comparability is still comparability, & I'd assume you aren't trying to say other fully evolved Pokemon can't match Alakazam in skill through their own means while also saying Alakazam can't account for them in spite of all its intelligence it uses every battle.

 

[SamanPatou]

To put it simply, my argument fundamentally revolves around the fact that these are Alakazam's unique properties, and namecalling it in the intelligence section of all mons makes it look like all of them have a similar mental capacity, while it is explicity regarded as an extraordinary characteristic of its species.

The fact it isn't ruled out as the single most-dominant Pokemon on the planet (aside from legendaries) means it doesn't outright hold complete superiority over the others, which should logically be able to compete, but at the same time its only natural for some to have a greater advantages, as weaknesses, and being super-intelligent doesn't necessarily grant you the win in face of a variety of possible odds.

 

[Imaginym]

To put it simply, my argument fundamentally revolves around the fact that these are Alakazam's unique properties, and namecalling it in the intelligence section of all mons makes it look like all of them have a similar mental capacity, while it is explicity regarded as an extraordinary characteristic of its species.

The fact it isn't ruled out as the single most-dominant Pokemon on the planet (aside from legendaries) means it doesn't outright hold complete superiority over the others, which should logically be able to compete, but at the same time its only natural for some to have a greater advantages, as weaknesses, and being super-intelligent doesn't necessarily grant you the win in face of a variety of possible odds.

Reasonable, I suppose.

 

[Minion_of_Pigsaw]

I agree with the thread.

 

[SamanPatou]

I had totally forgot about this thread lol.

@LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus I see you put a like at the op, does it mean you agree with the proposals?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I had totally forgot about this thread lol.

@LordGriffin1000 @DarkDragonMedeus I see you put a like at the op, does it mean you agree with the proposals?

I forgot to comment, my bad. But yes, I do agree with the proposals.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah looks good.

 

[SamanPatou]

I forgot to conclude this, I'm bringing this up one more time.
It seems there is enough consensus, should I go on and apply the revision?

 

[SamanPatou]

bump

 

[SamanPatou]

This had basically been already accepted back then and since no one argued against it these days, I'll go on and apply the changes.