Pokémon: Nearly Everything is Canon

[Omegabronic]

the split wasn't a cannon one, all the games anime, etc are still in the same "canon" we just stopped cross scaling alternate universes from one another

 

[CloverDragon03]

the split wasn't a cannon one, all the games anime, etc are still in the same "canon" we just stopped cross scaling alternate universes from one another

Yes. That restriction is what's trying to be removed

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes. That restriction is what's trying to be removed

The OP title and contents say otherwise, they keep saying that everything should be "canon", that is......quite literally all the OP says

 

[CloverDragon03]

The OP title and contents say otherwise, they keep saying that everything should be "canon", that is......quite literally all the OP says

The title is one thing, but the contents themselves? I ain't gonna lie brother that's on you

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, what CloverDragon03 said, the point is to bring back for the most part the old way scaling went.

 

[Hypertornado099]

but just to bring up, I’m very largely certain there’s only one set of the bird trio in the anime.

And why is that? We explicitly see more than 1 of each of them. There's even more than 1 Lugia

 

[Hypertornado099]

Yeah, what CloverDragon03 said, the point is to bring back for the most part the old way scaling went.

But I don't understand why the different continuities sharing a similar setting means cross scaling is okay. Its not like every different continuity functions exactly the same

 

[Arceus0x]

But I don't understand why the different continuities sharing a similar setting means cross scaling is okay. Its not like every different continuity functions exactly the same

Bro I literally already went over this.
The canon split left the pokedex entries as canon for every continuity since they are the exact same across all of them for the same Pokemon.
What this means in actuality is that in-verse scientists researched the same Pokemom and ended up reaching the exact same results.
If scientists which have futuristic tech, energy reading tech and more get to the same conclusion as scientists from another continuity, many of which include important AP feats, it would only make sense to say that the Pokemon aren't different.

Additionally the only thing that the split really does is make their AP scaling slightly different and completely nuke any proper visual depiction of moves, making them only harder to index. There's also changes to speed scaling (albeit I'm pretty sure both anime and games scale to FTL with similar feats with final evos and to lightning speed for lower evos) but the only reason why there's any change at all is because of a lack of feats for one continuity, not because there's a drastic difference between them.

TL;DR: the species are indexed the same exact way across all continuity by scientists with futuristic tech which includes indexing of AP feats.
The scaling differences relie not on drastic differences in feats but on a lack of feats in a continuity.

With all continuities enabled we will be able to see the whole picture as we'll be getting supporting feats across the verse and thus a proper scaling.

 

[Arceus0x]

So yes actually, every continuity does technically function exactly the same, they are literally described in the same exact way and all rely on the same type of pokemon battles.

 

[Arceus0x]

Well, people die eventually

There's also Rayquaza and Black Rayquaza.
Different Hoopas.
Pretty certain there are several of the Koraidon and Miraidon species but don't quote me on that.
There's tons of Melmetals
There's tons of Shaymin.

Basically anyone who doesn't rely on hyper specific lore usually has more than 1 naturally occuring entity.

 

[SlendVeny]

There's also Rayquaza and Black Rayquaza.

Interdimensional shenanigans

Different Hoopas.

Same Hoopa, 2 bodies.

Pretty certain there are several of the Koraidon and Miraidon species but don't quote me on that.

Koraidon and Miraidon are technically just past and future Cyclizar iirc.

There's tons of Melmetals

Not anymore, but yeah.

There's tons of Shaymin.

There are like 4, yeah.

Basically anyone who doesn't rely on hyper specific lore usually has more than 1 naturally occuring entity.

Some of them do, yes.

 

[Arceus0x]

Interdimensional shenanigans

Talking about latest anime rn

Same Hoopa, 2 bodies.

Forgor

Koraidon and Miraidon are technically just past and future Cyclizar iirc.

Still legendary

Not anymore, but yeah.

Pretty sure they were classified as a species

Some of them do, yes.

I think as long as they don't have specific lore reason to exist (Like Yveltal and Xerneas) they are a species most of the time

 

[SlendVeny]

Anyway, here's some more examples:


Entei's Pokédex entry in Silver states "It is said that one is born every time a new volcano appears," which is most likely just referring to a legend.

Terapagos is heavily implied to be part of a near-extinct species that was once very much not extinct.

Kubfu and Urshifu are legendary for some reason.

On Kanto Route 15, you can see Articuno flying through the sky even if you've already caught one.

In LGPE, you can catch multiple copies of the Legendary Birds.

Type:Null and Silvally are legendary for some reason.

Battle Frontier

Shiny versions of the Legendary Beasts appear in the Zoroark movie

And more!

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And why is that? We explicitly see more than 1 of each of them. There's even more than 1 Lugia

Lugia I’m aware of because of it reproducing. Do we ever see more than 1 version of the bird trio on screen together in the anime?

 

[Arceus0x]

Lugia I’m aware of because of it reproducing. Do we ever see more than 1 version of the bird trio on screen together in the anime?

in the anime no but there's the articuno example Slendy gave above and there's the fact that galarian bird trio exist meaning they had to adapt to Galar similar to how other pokemon did

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

in the anime no but there's the articuno example Slendy gave above and there's the fact that galarian bird trio exist meaning they had to adapt to Galar similar to how other pokemon did

To be somewhat fair arent Galarian variants supposed to be treated as their own separate species technically?

The Articuno example I see, though.

 

[Arceus0x]

To be somewhat fair arent Galarian variants supposed to be treated as their own separate species technically?

The Articuno example I see, though.

not really, the variant pokemon are just a pokemon species that adapted to an enviroment it lives in. In this case, the birds adapted to the Crown Tundra.

 

[SlendVeny]

not really, the variant pokemon are just a pokemon species that adapted to an enviroment it lives in. In this case, the birds adapted to the Crown Tundra.

I think that's frankly a little stupid on the devs end, why does ARTICUNO have to adapt to the tundra?

 

[Arceus0x]

I think that's frankly a little stupid on the devs end, why does ARTICUNO have to adapt to the tundra?

idk man it just did. It is a regional variant. Guess it adapted to a way of hunting rather than resistance to cold?

 

[SlendVeny]

idk man it just did. It is a regional variant. Guess it adapted to a way of hunting rather than resistance to cold?

I guess.

I think it might also just be a different thing, like an offshoot of a seperate original species, because they do seem to exist simultaneously, and get their names regardless of each other.

 

[Arceus0x]

I guess.

I think it might also just be a different thing, like an offshoot of a seperate original species, because they do seem to exist simultaneously, and get their names regardless of each other.

well either way there's too much to theorize so i'll just stick to how all other regional variants work for now.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So to give my opinion on the legendary scaling aspect of this, I believe it would be a more effective approach to treat them on a case by case basis, since not even all legendaries have the same power scaling confusions as others.

Back before splitting the canons was done, to my memory, we tiered legendaries according to the general depiction of them across all medias and took the most consistent depiction of them out of said medias, to determine if them being X tier for Y reasons was solid, or if it was inconsistent, and why for either/or. That kind of approach could be done for each legendary and they can be tiered a certain way depending on their particular case.

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Arceus0x]

-

Could you ping some staff please?

 

[Imaginym]

Additionally the following isn't usable for different reasons:

Pokémon Mini games (they are regarded as fictional in Pokémon Channel)
Super Smash Bros series (crossover game with lore that makes it explicitly not canon)

Smash aside, this means the Pokemon Channel Mini-Games specifically, & possibly tentatively speaking, exclusively?
Not say, the Mini-Games in Pokemon Stadium or Mini-Games like in Pokemon Amie of Gen 6 or other Mini-Games in the main series?

 

[SamanPatou]

This thing is damn long and I will reply thoroughly once I've got to the bottom of the docs linked in the op (I have yet to read the second one) and the comments, but for now count me in disagreement.

All the evidences brought up to equalize all the canons / timelines / alternate universes call them as you like (the end point is the same) are statements from WoG that are unclear at best, just because they don't care about unifying everything, it's not their point. All official material needs to be approved and overlooked for obvious reasons, and they try to maintain a general linearity for the sake of the product. But then, they are given a lot of creative liberty and at the end of the day the details that matter to us all fall in the interpretation of different writers, devs, directors etc... depending on what fits the single product, which into themselves already fall intro contradictions for plot's sake. Of course drawing from the unseen potential within the games is a good way to make things interesting, but that's it, drawing inspiration but we aren't before an organic unification of everything bearing the Pokemon banner.
In short, all these explanations from WoG are more a matter of product functioning, not a narrative exposition.

And at the end of the day we fall flat on what matters most, that being pragmatism. There was already a constant back and forth when everything was treated as viable because we got with a million contradicting feats, characterizations, mechanics etc.. at hand, because a feat from the manga contradicted one from the anime that in turn goes against the game but is supported by a spin off etc...
All the authors serve their own interest when producing anything, and are basically free once given the greenlight by the higher ups. All products are already meant to go on their own way without caring to be in perfect line with a separate one, it's the reason several of the aforementioned aspects are interpreted and portrayed in different ways, and it's our pointless effort to try and piece together what was never meant to be such in the first place and utilizes such liberty at the utmost.

I've ended up writing much more than I initially intended, and while I'll come back at some point, I'm hardly against this re-unification.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean adventures mewtwo is different from every other known mewtwo. I feel the species of non legendaries are consistent enough as the in most cases where we see them act differently they are acting outside the norm of the species even in that world like red's eevee in adventures for example.

 

[Arceus0x]

hardly against this re-unification.

that would mean you're not against it though

All the evidences brought up to equalize all the canons / timelines / alternate universes call them as you like (the end point is the same) are statements from WoG that are unclear at best, just because they don't care about unifying everything, it's not their point. All official material needs to be approved and overlooked for obvious reasons, and they try to maintain a general linearity for the sake of the product. But then, they are given a lot of creative liberty and at the end of the day the details that matter to us all fall in the interpretation of different writers, devs, directors etc... depending on what fits the single product, which into themselves already fall intro contradictions for plot's sake.

Just because a director gives somewhat of a different spin on something doesn't really mean it isn't viable. Sonic verse has several interpretations and there's differences between games and comics but that doesn't stop it being the same universe. Here we have more liberty due to alt universes which make it possible for contradictions to be lesser than they would be in the same exact universe. Additionally contradictions that do exist are minor in my opinion and the important parts stay consistent. If Arceus is the god of the universe then he's the god of the universe in every interpretation. If necrozma absorbs all light in the lore of the games he does so in its every appearance. The main contradictions happen around Legendary scaling which we're already discussing. Meanwhile, the normal pokemon have stayed consistent throughout their portrayals, and the fact that their pokedex entries across continuities are overall the same just proves it further.

Of course drawing from the unseen potential within the games is a good way to make things interesting, but that's it, drawing inspiration but we aren't before an organic unification of everything bearing the Pokemon banner.
In short, all these explanations from WoG are more a matter of product functioning, not a narrative exposition.

WoG is support of the idea that the overall products don't differentiate that much. We've already said that stuff like Mystery dungeon would be treated more like a spinoff as there are definitely limits to what is consistent. I'd rather you wouldn't ignore the fact that there is stuff that is consistently unifing, like the scientist-made pokedex entries which are consistent with each main bit of media, the characters from one media appearing in the other, the overall similarities in portrayal and the fact that the feats are generally similar.

And at the end of the day we fall flat on what matters most, that being pragmatism. There was already a constant back and forth when everything was treated as viable because we got with a million contradicting feats, characterizations, mechanics etc.. at hand, because a feat from the manga contradicted one from the anime that in turn goes against the game but is supported by a spin off etc...

I think this is heavily overblown. There are barely any mechanics that work differently that are actually notable. Mega evos, Z-moves, G-max and D-max, Tera are all consistent across the board. Most moves work exactly the same as they do in other media with minor exceptions like double team working slightly different in the manga. Feats? A good chunk of the feats come from pokedex entries and end up being consistent with each other across all media. There are very similar feats across the series like XY Abomasnow feat and such. There are many consistent legendary feats that are basically constant, with Groudon always being High 6-A, all the cosmic Arceus feats and the scaling coming from Necrozma being consistently above tier 4, the only difference being that the manga ended up giving more context to it.
Basically, I think that the contradictions are mainly overblown. The main difference we've seen is the difference in legendary scaling, which is problematic. We were discussing the fact that it is explainable by the fact that legendaries have variable power.
Additionally we already had a way to fix this issues with the old canon mechanics - Game canon is above all and the rest complement it. This meant that if anything contradicts the higher order lore, the higher order lore is the one that takes priority. All that's needed is to simply apply it properly and a good chunk of contradictions is fully gone.

All the authors serve their own interest when producing anything, and are basically free once given the greenlight by the higher ups. All products are already meant to go on their own way without caring to be in perfect line with a separate one, it's the reason several of the aforementioned aspects are interpreted and portrayed in different ways, and it's our pointless effort to try and piece together what was never meant to be such in the first place and utilizes such liberty at the utmost.

Overall, I think you are very much overblowing the issues at hand. I disagree with the fact that they use THAT much liberty. From what I have seen of the pokeverse there are two things that are inconsistent.
One, as mentioned above, Legendary scaling. Legendary scaling is very much fixable and the main feats that it originates from are usually consistent across all the main media.
Two, spin-off games, though there are only two or three that are seriously inconsistent. This issue is yet again easily fixable with the enforcement of the canon heirarchy.

Additionally there's the fact that the three main forms of pokemedia (games, anime, manga) are interconnected as seen with the fact that there are anime characters like Ash in the game, not to mention the reference to Alain - both being original anime characters. Same goes for the manga. All have production connections as well, for example, the anime had specials made specifically to promote new games, episodes that are part of the canon and not some on off thing.

Basically, I think the inconsistencies are overblown and are fixable with a bit more careful approach.

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean adventures mewtwo is different from every other known mewtwo. I feel the species of non legendaries are consistent enough as the in most cases where we see them act differently they are acting outside the norm of the species even in that world like red's eevee in adventures for example.

adventure's mewtwo is different because he has human dna in him. Red's eevee is also an experiment made by team rocket.

 

[Lou_change]

adventure's mewtwo is different because he has human dna in him.

What I am trying to say is that a number of them show abilities unique to a specific version, the Deoxys in adventure are among the best examples the first we see has invisibility at least until disposed of by team rocket while the second is given the ability to create clones however as most times we see legendaries it's just the one or few in that version of the world so it is not unreasonable to exclude versions of the Pokémon that exhibit unique properties.

Red's eevee is also an experiment made by team rocket.

I am aware that is why it is different from every other eevee in adventures like I said.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the OP seems reasonable from a glance.

 

[Arceus0x]

What I am trying to say is that a number of them show abilities unique to a specific version, the Deoxys in adventure are among the best examples the first we see has invisibility at least until disposed of by team rocket while the second is given the ability to create clones however as most times we see legendaries it's just the one or few in that version of the world so it is not unreasonable to exclude versions of the Pokémon that exhibit unique properties.

You are talking about specific instances that aren't representative of a species. I don't remember how one of them was creating clones but I am pretty sure that team rocket did something with their genetics as well if I remember correctly

I am aware that is why it is different from every other eevee in adventures like I said.

 

[Lou_change]

You are talking about specific instances that aren't representative of a species.

Yes, I am arguing since most legendary are shown through specific instances so if they are notable different in capabilities from the norm shown by other versions of the Pokémon that should be acknowledged like how in the manga prior to getting caught controlling the original 3 giants was possible and lethal if done for a long time.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes, I am arguing since most legendary are shown through specific instances so if they are notable different in capabilities from the norm shown by other versions of the Pokémon that should be acknowledged like how in the manga prior to getting caught controlling the original 3 giants was possible and lethal if done for a long time.

okay I guess?

 

[Planck69]

Reading everything, I'm leaning on agreeing with the OP but I'll wait and let them hash things out before committing, since there does seem to be a legitimate issue raised in regards to the Legendaries scaling in this thread.

 

[Arceus0x]

Reading everything, I'm leaning on agreeing with the OP but I'll wait and let them hash things out before committing, since there does seem to be a legitimate issue raised in regards to the Legendaries scaling in this thread.

I was thinking on actually discussing it separately but ig we can discuss it here

 

[Arceus0x]

I was thinking of first getting this thread accepted and then we actually make a thread to address the issues we do have.

 

[Lou_change]

If there's issues with the legendaries than that suggests a problem with scaling. Then people are going to use those as examples why we shouldn't cross scale. We would need to prove that they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Arceus0x]

If there's issues with the legendaries than that suggests a problem with scaling. Then people are going to use those as examples why we shouldn't cross scale. We would need to prove that they are the exception rather than the rule.

as you can see above we already discussing it. We could likely apply a varies tier based on some consistent showings of level and power variation, or just use the most consistent showings for them across the media.
I've also been thinking, we could nuke the "all pokemon used are lvl 100" rule and just make it so all pokemon know all their moves in battle...or maybe do that for just the legendaries since they vary in power in their wild encounters.

Basically a lot can be done here, though the simplest solution would be to mainly use game-scaling while filling in the blanks with other media.

 

[Omegabronic]

as you can see above we already discussing it. We could likely apply a varies tier based on some consistent showings of level and power variation

varies ratings can only be used if there is a canonical reasoning for the varied statistics......is there one here?