Pokémon: Nearly Everything is Canon

[CloverDragon03]

Man I said this before

Pokemon profiles are proposed to be treated as species profiles. Under such a case, they'd naturally have Varies ratings since not every member of a species is gonna be the exact same. That's the reasoning

 

[Omegabronic]

Man I said this before

Pokemon profiles are proposed to be treated as species profiles. Under such a case, they'd naturally have Varies ratings since not every member of a species is gonna be the exact same. That's the reasoning

but isn't the argument that Legendaries are not species?

 

[Arceus0x]

varies ratings can only be used if there is a canonical reasoning for the varied statistics......is there one here?

Levels and overall power variation throughout the series?

 

[Omegabronic]

Levels

are levels even considered cannon?

and overall power variation throughout the series?

is there a reason to such power variation other than inconsistent showings?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

are levels even considered cannon?

They've been referenced a few times throughout various pieces of Pokémon media, including animes and manga, so probably, I guess.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

as you can see above we already discussing it. We could likely apply a varies tier based on some consistent showings of level and power variation, or just use the most consistent showings for them across the media.

This. Which is why I proposed this for legendaries

So to give my opinion on the legendary scaling aspect of this, I believe it would be a more effective approach to treat them on a case by case basis, since not even all legendaries have the same power scaling confusions as others.

Back before splitting the canons was done, to my memory, we tiered legendaries according to the general depiction of them across all medias and took the most consistent depiction of them out of said medias, to determine if them being X tier for Y reasons was solid, or if it was inconsistent, and why for either/or. That kind of approach could be done for each legendary and they can be tiered a certain way depending on their particular case.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Levels and overall power variation throughout the series?

Btw this is not a reason. You need something stated in-universe. "Power variation" can just be another term for "inconsistency" (which we know the anime alone has loads of), and "levels" seem to more so indicate that multiples of some species exist

 

[Lou_change]

Back before splitting the canons was done, to my memory, we tiered legendaries according to the general depiction of them across all medias and took the most consistent depiction of them out of said medias, to determine if them being X tier for Y reasons was solid, or if it was inconsistent, and why for either/or. That kind of approach could be done for each legendary and they can be tiered a certain way depending on their particular case.

If they are inconsistent regarding power then why would we not just index different versions separately especially if they are different in other ways

 

[Omegabronic]

if you guys accept "species" of legendaries, we can do what Digimon does for the species that show greater scalling, example here

i think a "X rating, up to Y rating for stronger members of the species" could work, of course, only if Legendaries are considered species

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

if you guys accept "species" of legendaries, we can do what Digimon does for the species that show greater scalling, example here

i think a "X rating, up to Y rating for stronger members of the species" could work, of course, only if Legendaries are considered species

I think this might be the best approach for legendaries who aren’t like the creation trio, light trio, etc etc

 

[Omegabronic]

I think this might be the best approach for legendaries who aren’t like the creation trio, light trio, etc etc

If those don't have species then we need to solve them as well

 

[CloverDragon03]

If those don't have species then we need to solve them as well

For the Creation Trio, Lake Guardians, and Arceus, there's only one of them so easy peasy

 

[Omegabronic]

For the Creation Trio, Lake Guardians, and Arceus, there's only one of them so easy peasy

Yeah, maybe separate them by avatars? Dunno of that is enough reasoning tho

 

[SlendVeny]

For the Creation Trio, Lake Guardians, and Arceus, there's only one of them so easy peasy

I mean, Arcues does create additional Creation Trio members in HGSS, but I'm pretty sure those are just avatars or something.

 

[Arceus0x]

Btw this is not a reason. You need something stated in-universe. "Power variation" can just be another term for "inconsistency" (which we know the anime alone has loads of), and "levels" seem to more so indicate that multiples of some species exist

I can agree with that aye.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think we should come to an agreement of an overall way to deal with legendaries here and then make a separate thread later to deal with actually rescaling individual legendaries.

 

[Omegabronic]

I think we should come to an agreement of an overall way to deal with legendaries here and then make a separate thread later to deal with actually rescaling individual legendaries.

Ok, firatly we have to decide: Do we make the "normal" legendaries species or not?

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok, firatly we have to decide: Do we make the "normal" legendaries species or not?

Case by case since some do have several versions of them running around while some seem to be unique like the Black and White Dragons.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Case by case since some do have several versions of them running around while some seem to be unique like the Black and White Dragons.

This. Especially on the case by case point. Ultimately, even with more than “one” of them, legendaries are really no different from normal Pokémon in terms of how they’re treated, aside from being much stronger. So I believe the normal standard should be that they’re treated the same as non-legendaries until otherwise.

After all, there’s no reason to even worry about the scaling of a particular legendary, unless specific feats from that said legendary appear that actually causes confusions.

 

[Arceus0x]

I think that at a glance when it comes to box legendaries

Mewtwo - semi-case-by-case since they mainly display similar properties and there's more than one
Mew - species
Johto boxlegs - species
Hoenn boxlegs - species
Sinnoh boxlegs - unique but with varying avatars
Unova - unique
Kalos - unique
Alola - species
Galar - unique
idk much about gen 9 lore but I think it was species too

 

[Imaginym]

I think that at a glance when it comes to box legendaries

Mew - species

I'm ashamed to say I don't know the basis for this.

Johto boxlegs - species

I know of Lugia's basis, but not Ho-oh's.

Hoenn boxlegs - species

AFAIK, Groudon, Kyogre & Rayquaza kind of seem to be singular as part of their lore. Groudon & Kyogre fought & went dormant & are revered in Hoenn.

idk much about gen 9 lore but I think it was species too

IIRC, we don't KNOW if there's more, & the professor writes about Miraidon/Koraidon as though he was glad to get 2.
If the professor at the lake at the end of The Hidden Treasure of Area Zero is to be believed & interpreted in a certain way, Paradox mons like Miraidon & Koraidon may be from alternate universes rather than the future or past or such.
Of course, this begs the question of their origins in that universe. Freak lab incidents? Genetic mutations? Something like Mewtwo? Created by a being?
Actual evolved forms of something that can't breed, like Manaphy & Phione?

They are noted to have similar genetics to Cyclizar, but I think there's multiple possible explanations that satisfy that criteria.

Not like we know the species zoological evolutionary history.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'm ashamed to say I don't know the basis for this.

Mew has a canonicaly shiny version roaming around the world in Emerald on Faraway Island

I know of Lugia's basis, but not Ho-oh's.

I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a pokemon who is the opposite of Lugia and requires the same ritual to summon works on a similar biology

AFAIK, Groudon, Kyogre & Rayquaza kind of seem to be singular as part of their lore. Groudon & Kyogre fought & went dormant & are revered in Hoenn.

Rayquaza has black Rayquaza in ash anime and latest anime. Kyogre mainly remains around Hoenn caves while there is one in Alola as well.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also Mew canonically gave birth. Mew has reproductive organs, which makes it possible to be a species.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Rayquaza has black Rayquaza in ash anime and latest anime. Kyogre mainly remains around Hoenn caves while there is one in Alola as well.

Pretty sure Black Rayquaza in the Ash anime is from an alternate universe, because of Hoopa summoning shenanigans. And Horizons so far has no evidence of being in the same universe as Ash’s.

Also, I don’t think roaming is much of a strong argument to suggest different versions of legendaries. After all, we know such cases of the same legendary visiting different regions can and do exist. Like Zygarde going from Kalos to Alola to fight off the UBs.

 

[Arceus0x]

Pretty sure Black Rayquaza in the Ash anime is from an alternate universe, because of Hoopa summoning shenanigans. And Horizons so far has no evidence of being in the same universe as Ash’s.

Also, I don’t think roaming is much of a strong argument to suggest different versions of legendaries. After all, we know such cases of the same legendary visiting different regions can and do exist. Like Zygarde going from Kalos to Alola to fight off the UBs.

Horizons does have some connections since they do have Liko wearing a pin with the indigo league logo which originated from the ash anime

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Horizons does have some connections since they do have Liko wearing a pin with the indigo league logo which originated from the ash anime

I’m pretty sure that’s just the one off type of reference rather than something deeper. The leagues are in every universe but it wouldn’t mean it’s specifically in Ash’s universe.

 

[Arceus0x]

I’m pretty sure that’s just the one off type of reference rather than something deeper. The leagues are in every universe but it wouldn’t mean it’s specifically in Ash’s universe.

the animation style's the same, the pokemon act the same, the same technology is used and there's a logo that is unique to the anime. I think it is in the same universe. Even if it wasn't, it would have the same weight as the ash anime since they are just the pokemon anime series.

 

[Omegabronic]

Sinnoh boxlegs - unique but with varying avatars

Is there any statement in verse to justify them varying in power?

Kalos - unique

What is the reasoning for the ones there to be unique and not a species?

 

[Omegabronic]

Also Mew canonically gave birth. Mew has reproductive organs, which makes it possible to be a species.

Isn't Mew also cannonically the ancestor to all pokemon? If so he must be a species by default

 

[Arceus0x]

Is there any statement in verse to justify them varying in power?

they are avatars with different scaling. There's no reason to think the avatars can't be made weaker or stronger.

 

[Imaginym]

I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a pokemon who is the opposite of Lugia and requires the same ritual to summon works on a similar biology

Little suggests they have the same biology, & are only loosely opposites.
While it's true Ho-Oh is a Fire-type & Lugia lives in the sea, I'm not sure of much else.
I guess Ho-Oh flies around the world, while Lugia keeps itself deep underwater; Opposites in that 1 travels a lot while 1 avoids going much of anywhere at all.

But in terms of actual ecology, they're indeed opposites, so it's strange to assume that just because Lugia had babies in the anime that Ho-Oh, which flies around the world & only sometimes lands at a burned down tower, would have done the same, especially with little evidence for that in the games or anime. Lugia actually plausibly could've settled down, but Ho-Oh travels too much.

With one living undersea & the other being mostly in the sky, I don't see the similarities.

Also, same ritual to summon?
Don't they have different items to use in different places?

Rayquaza has black Rayquaza in ash anime and latest anime. Kyogre mainly remains around Hoenn caves while there is one in Alola as well.

I forget, wasn't there some distinction to said Rayquaza's origin?

As for Kyogre, there's one in Alola?

Also Mew canonically gave birth. Mew has reproductive organs, which makes it possible to be a species.

Couldn't this be euphemistic language by the genetic cloning scientists, especially since the Japanese term for "genderless" is actually "Unknown Gender"? That indicates they don't know if it has reproductive organs or not, which calls into question them declaring that it birthed something, as opposed to figuratively referring to a successfully clone-in-a-vat project as a "birth" more figuratively.

And Horizons so far has no evidence of being in the same universe as Ash’s.

I could swear I remember posting a news article where the creators said something about if it's the same universe.

 

[Lou_change]

I think it wouldn't be a stretch to say that a pokemon who is the opposite of Lugia and requires the same ritual to summon works on a similar biology

The sole reason they are on the box is because they are two powerful pokemon seen earlier in the anime the guy who originally made the base concept of lugia was surprised it it appeared in the games

 

[Arceus0x]

Little suggests they have the same biology, & are only loosely opposites.
While it's true Ho-Oh is a Fire-type & Lugia lives in the sea, I'm not sure of much else.
I guess Ho-Oh flies around the world, while Lugia keeps itself deep underwater; Opposites in that 1 travels a lot while 1 avoids going much of anywhere at all.

But in terms of actual ecology, they're indeed opposites, so it's strange to assume that just because Lugia had babies in the anime that Ho-Oh, which flies around the world & only sometimes lands at a burned down tower, would have done the same, especially with little evidence for that in the games or anime. Lugia actually plausibly could've settled down, but Ho-Oh travels too much.

I mean let's be real here it's a bird. It has no reason not to reproduce and while the biologies would be different there's no reason for it not to be able to something like that, especially as a parallel of Lugia.

With one living undersea & the other being mostly in the sky, I don't see the similarities.

It is the fact that they're parallels. Also, Lugia very much flies and it is the secondary typing of it.

Also, same ritual to summon?
Don't they have different items to use in different places?

They do but they have very similar parallel requirements

I forget, wasn't there some distinction to said Rayquaza's origin?

no

As for Kyogre, there's one in Alola?

Yes, Lana caught it and then let it go

Couldn't this be euphemistic language by the genetic cloning scientists, especially since the Japanese term for "genderless" is actually "Unknown Gender"? That indicates they don't know if it has reproductive organs or not, which calls into question them declaring that it birthed something, as opposed to figuratively referring to a successfully clone-in-a-vat project as a "birth" more figuratively.

Why would it be? It says Mew gave birth. I don't find it reasonable to just assume stuff for the sake of it. It says Mew gave birth, thus mew gave birth.

I could swear I remember posting a news article where the creators said something about if it's the same universe.

If you can find it, it would be much appreciated.

The sole reason they are on the box is because they are two powerful pokemon seen earlier in the anime the guy who originally made the base concept of lugia was surprised it it appeared in the games

That doesn't really matter since that's simply the conceptual birth of these pokemon, their lore came after.

 

[Lou_change]

I would still argue that the aren't even mentioned to be counter parts in lower the only connection in game is their former roosting spots.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean let's be real here it's a bird. It has no reason not to reproduce and while the biologies would be different there's no reason for it not to be able to something like that, especially as a parallel of Lugia.

As an Unknown Gender Pokemon, if it does reproduce, Pokemon's super scientist which we argue as credible, cannot discern which it is, & it is in the No Eggs Discovered Egg Group.
Also, single specimen species are common in fiction, especially immortals, & Lugia reproducing was introducing by the anime, which is a different universe from the games, no?
Plus, Ho-Oh is based on the phoenix, being named after it, a fire bird, its associations with revival....

& before Gen 2, we didn't have box legendaries & it & Lugia weren't very connected in development, IIRC.

The sole reason they are on the box is because they are two powerful pokemon seen earlier in the anime the guy who originally made the base concept of lugia was surprised it it appeared in the games

Like that.

Considering their radically different lifestyles, physiques & other info, I doubt we can assume they both readily reproduce. Lugia has clear evidence for it, but Ho-Oh is constantly travelling, based on an immortal, reviving creature, & is in the No Eggs Discovered Group, & both are Unknown Gender; Lugia reproduces, but that doesn't mean Pokemon world scientists have a clear idea how, unlike other Pokemon.

It is the fact that they're parallels. Also, Lugia very much flies and it is the secondary typing of it.

It is capable of doing so, but the concern is in how they parallel each other, &, in its typical ecology, Lugia does NOT.

Emerald	Lugia is so powerful even a light fluttering of its wings can blow apart houses. As a result, it chooses to live out of sight deep under the sea.

That is not the behaviour of something that regularly leaves the sea to fly around, much less seek out others of its kind through flight.

They do but they have very similar parallel requirements

I'm not sure on the details.

Yes, Lana caught it and then let it go

I'm pretty sure that, IIRC, Lana, especially demonstrated by the anime, is a known liar, especially about her fishing catches.

Why would it be? It says Mew gave birth. I don't find it reasonable to just assume stuff for the sake of it. It says Mew gave birth, thus mew gave birth.

What do you mean "Why would it be?"
I just explained why.
Canonically Mew's gender is unknown; That would mean unknown to the people documenting it.
Mew was being made to reproduce through generic research.
A success on a difficult cloning/genetic engineering project could be called it giving birth because Mew's DNA was used in the creation of their project.
The birth of the most powerful Pokemon.
Thus, it could be figurative.

If you can find it, it would be much appreciated.

I'll try to remember to look for it.
Apologies for any bother with this debate.

 

[Arceus0x]

As an Unknown Gender Pokemon, if it does reproduce, Pokemon's super scientist which we argue as credible, cannot discern which it is, & it is in the No Eggs Discovered Egg Group.

game mechanic

Also, single specimen species are common in fiction, especially immortals, & Lugia reproducing was introducing by the anime, which is a different universe from the games, no?
Plus, Ho-Oh is based on the phoenix, being named after it, a fire bird, its associations with revival....

the phoenix argument makes more sense though. One thing, the anime only introduced it because the games didn't introduce anything useful regarding that side.

& before Gen 2, we didn't have box legendaries & it & Lugia weren't very connected in development, IIRC.

Like that.

I mean the fact that they got paralleled later and were already generally parallel to each other in the two games shows that they, by logic, are meant to parallel each other. It wouldn't be surprising for them to share similarities, which they already do.

Considering their radically different lifestyles, physiques & other info, I doubt we can assume they both readily reproduce. Lugia has clear evidence for it, but Ho-Oh is constantly travelling, based on an immortal, reviving creature, & is in the No Eggs Discovered Group, & both are Unknown Gender; Lugia reproduces, but that doesn't mean Pokemon world scientists have a clear idea how, unlike other Pokemon.

It is capable of doing so, but the concern is in how they parallel each other, &, in its typical ecology, Lugia does NOT.

Emerald	Lugia is so powerful even a light fluttering of its wings can blow apart houses. As a result, it chooses to live out of sight deep under the sea.

That is not the behaviour of something that regularly leaves the sea to fly around, much less seek out others of its kind through flight.

I get the point but just because they behave somewhat differently doesn't mean they can't have babies at some point. It's not a common thing either as otherwise we'd have skies full of lugias.

I'm pretty sure that, IIRC, Lana, especially demonstrated by the anime, is a known liar, especially about her fishing catches.

The One That Didn't Get Away!

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

What do you mean "Why would it be?"
I just explained why.

and I disagree with it

Canonically Mew's gender is unknown; That would mean unknown to the people documenting it.

sure but that doesn't mean it is genderless and by evidence of it given birth we can assume it is female. Additionally, game mechanics, yet again.

Mew was being made to reproduce through generic research.

That means it is capable of reproduction and since it is the mother of all pokemon we can assume that it literally should be its whole thing. I mean for goodness sake it is literally shaped like an embryo, how much more obvious could it get that the pokemon connected to everyone's birth can give birth?

A success on a difficult cloning/genetic engineering project could be called it giving birth because Mew's DNA was used in the creation of their project.

That is a headcanon. Show me one case when anyone made a clone, one that wasn't physically born by someone, and say that that someone gave birth. It literally makes no sense.

The birth of the most powerful Pokemon.
Thus, it could be figurative.

It is as blatant as it gets

I'll try to remember to look for it.
Apologies for any bother with this debate.

ok

 

[Arceus0x]

To add to the screenshot

 

[Omegabronic]

they are avatars with different scaling. There's no reason to think the avatars can't be made weaker or stronger.

is there any statements that would suggest that they can be made stronger or weaker? i am not sure if "Avatars" is enough reasoning for them to be able to be made weaker or stronger on this site

To add to the screenshot

this is clearly in reference to them cloning Mewtwo off of Mew, Mewtwo wasn't literally birthed out of Mew, else he'd be a Mew


however, Mew is the "ancestor to all pokemon" therefore, yes, it is a species, it reproduced into eventually all other pokemon

 

[Arceus0x]

this is clearly in reference to them cloning Mewtwo off of Mew, Mewtwo wasn't literally birthed out of Mew, else he'd be a Mew


however, Mew is the "ancestor to all pokemon" therefore, yes, it is a species, it reproduced into eventually all other pokemon

and yet it says the complete opposite of what you're suggesting. I think it was most likely a forcefully induced pregnancy but it still means it has a reproductive system which supports the idea of it being a species. Add that up with the faraway island blue mew and you've got yourself the picture of a mew species.

 

[Imaginym]

game mechanic

the phoenix argument makes more sense though. One thing, the anime only introduced it because the games didn't introduce anything useful regarding that side.

Introduced Ho-Oh, you mean?
Despite it being typed & named after the Phoenix & not really doing much phoenix-related in the anime?
I'd say it's classification as such began with the games more than the anime.
Plus, there might be something to do with "rebirth" with what happened to the Brass/Burned Tower, which prompted Ho-Oh to leave the Bell/Tin Tower, supposedly in search of a pure-hearted trainer.

I mean the fact that they got paralleled later and were already generally parallel to each other in the two games shows that they, by logic, are meant to parallel each other. It wouldn't be surprising for them to share similarities, which they already do.

Their similarities are being flying Pokemon that have lived at towers.
One is aquatic, the other travels a lot.
I think they parallel each other in themes, but not much else.
Plus, Lugia was designed primarily for a movie, no?

I get the point but just because they behave somewhat differently doesn't mean they can't have babies at some point. It's not a common thing either as otherwise we'd have skies full of lugias.

But with the phoenxi stuff, Pokemon like Ho-Oh being identifiable as "Gender Unknown", yet known for decades, if not centuries suggests it may just live a really long time rather than reproduce.
We haven't seen much evidence it can, other than Lugia having babies only in the anime, as opposed to the games, where both have no signs they can reproduce in addition to game mechanics preventing them doing so.

As you said "otherwise we'd have skies full of lugias" (Which should be "seas full of Lugia".), we haven't seen skies full of multiple Ho-Oh, despite it being known to fly around the world. If it did reproduce, where are the others.
I'd say that in fiction, just because it's organic doesn't mean it reproduces.

The One That Didn't Get Away!

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

Verifiable & fair. (But I still attest that Lana is an unreliable, frequent liar on other occasions. Ex: The many times she claimed ripples in water were hunky swimmers, or that the rain in a route in the games was from a Kyogre.)

It's also curious because Lana has lied about finding Kyogre a few times, IIRC, especially in the anime; That anime could be meant as a "payoff" on her running gag of fishing catches by being made so that she actually did "catch" a Kyogre then release it, as fish do.

As is, multiple Kyogre existing is strange for the mythology. Ex:

Sapphire	Kyogre is named in mythology as the Pokémon that expanded the sea by covering the land with torrential rains and towering tidal waves. It took to sleep after a cataclysmic battle with Groudon.

Not to mention the orb specifically for it.
Where are the other Groudon, too?

I won't deny Lana did indeed meet a Kyogre, even if an episode featuring a Kyogre being made for the anime (Which many often find questionable with stuff like Thunder Armor & whatnot.) for a character who repeatedly lied about fishing up a Kyogre is suspicious from an out-of-universe standpoint, & concerning from an in-universe standpoint.

sure but that doesn't mean it is genderless and by evidence of it given birth we can assume it is female. Additionally, game mechanics, yet again.

There are repeated statements on Pokemon being gender unknown, so I wouldn't call it game mechanics.

Gender unknown

bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net

• Pokémon Sun & Pokémon Moon: The Official Strategy Guide, p. 288; excerpt: "scientists have been unable to determine any gender for them"
• Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon: The Official Alola Region Strategy Guide, p. 359; excerpt: "no one's been able to determine their gender"
• Pokémon Black 2 and White 2: An NPC in the Floccesy Pokémon Center, with a gender-unknown Pokémon in the first slot of the party: "Your <Pokémon>... Its gender is unknown." (Japanese: 「あなたの　<Pokémon>って……　性別が　わからないのね！」 "Your <Pokémon>... I can't tell what gender it is!")

Regarding the topic you & @omegabronic have been participating in the 2 most recent posts, I would prefer to leave you two to handle that yourselves. Sorry. No offense meant.