Pokémon General Discussion Thread Gen VIII: Dragon keeps editing the title

[Jag50]

Ash beat a Legendary with a Legendary. I mean sure Melmetal lost but he did all the work for Pikachu to deliver the finishing blow.

Melmetal did do most of the work, sure, but Sivally was still at the point where it could continue to fight and beating a weakened legendary, a UB level one at that, is still remarkably impressive compared to pretty much any opponent Ash has taken on sans Tobias. I doubt Paul, Alain, or any of Ash's previous rivals would have been able to do anything.
Besides, this match wasn't the first time Ash took on Sivally in battle either y'know.

Being able to cut through Primal Groudon's precicipice blades, Dodge around its attacks and actually agitiate it physically with a steel wing >>>>> Anything Silvally has shown thus far.

Surviving a Dragon Ascent from Mega Rayquaza >>>>>

We don't know how the UB's are in comparison to box legendaries. Likely the lower UB's that Silvally is an apparent "counter" for are nowhere near boxed legendary territory. As Gladion and Silvally did not 1v1 Guzzlord as prime evidence.

Charizard defeated an Elite 4 while severely weakened, held its own against Steven Stone and even battled 50% Zygarde to a complete stalemate.

Gladion is nowhere near Alain or XY Ash's level. The feat gap between them is absurd and Silvally's gimmicky nature doesn't help that fact.

Pokemon X/Y was the biggest power escalation for standard trainers that the series has ever had.

At best, Gladion is only beating out the likes of Paul.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@Jag50

Gladion is 5-B with Type: Null / Silvally and Alain just High 7-A, Gladion is clearly stronger than Alain by houses of tens or more

And UB's are 5-B as they pose a serious threat to the point that Zygarde 50% leaves Kalos to Alola

 

[Imaginym]

I think his point was that the canonical feats disagree.

We might scale such and such to such, but Gladion & his Silvally haven't shown feats of being the tier we'd scale them to, a tier which... isn't that based on Silvally being built to fight Ultra Beasts? It's reasonable to assume it should be able to, but it hasn't really succeeded at doing it, has it?

A weapon can fail at its purpose. Has Silvally shown anything that puts it on par with UBs other than being built for the purpose of fighting them?

Meanwhile, Alain's Charizard has actually taken on Legendaries, performing well against them, taking hits, etc.

Scaling Alain's Charizard to the Legendaries it fought makes sense to me.

 

[NeoZex6399]

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

@Imagynim

Well, Type: Null/Silvally was essentially created by AF to fight the UB's and at the same time fought several of them in the manga, I mean, even in Type: Null's own profile for the 5-B justification there are links that demonstrate the fight against UB's, and even being able to easily defeat one of them in the anime as Silvally, all this evidence shows us that Type: Null/Silvally being 5-B is consistent

While Alain's alleged 5-B feats have contradictions, while Primal Groudon who is more than 7 times weaker than Zygarde 50%, was able to one-shot Alain's Mega Charizard X with a Precipice Blades and even undid his Mega Evolution, while much latter the same Mega Charizard X was able to fight Zygarde 50%, Alain's own 5-B feats contradict himself

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, Precipice Blades was just supereffective...

 

[Imaginym]

Has Gladion's Type:Null/Silvally lost to opponents weaker than Ultra Beasts? Also, what if it was just that Alain's Charizard got stronger between the two battles?

 

[Bobsican]

BTW, why are now all Pokémon that used to be Low 7-B now High 7-C?

 

[Drite77]

Cause Seismic Toss animation is deemed non usable

 

[Bobsican]

What about the Magneton thing? Wasn´t 8-A+ x 3 = Low 7-B?

 

[GyroNutz]

8-A+ x 3 is Low 7-C

 

[Bobsican]

Oh, then RIP

Also, then obviously this shouldn´t be linked in Magneton´s AP descriptio

 

[GyroNutz]

It's a supporting feat ig, like how Octillery and Volcarona have 7-B feats linked on their profiles.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, I just don´t see the tier 7 part, if anything, it supports 8-A to Magnemite and others

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Has Gladion's Type:Null/Silvally lost to opponents weaker than Ultra Beasts? Also, what if it was just that Alain's Charizard got stronger between the two battles?

Yes, but these cases are considered outliers or PIS, It isn't different form the another cases of other legendaries losing to normal Pokémon's. They wouldn't have as Alain's Mega Charizard X to get sronger, the power gap between the two is too big for him fought Null, and yet Blaze doesn't give a giant boost enough for it.

 

[HenryWong122]

What legendaries have the lowest tier?

 

[Imaginym]

Has Gladion's Type:Null/Silvally lost to opponents weaker than Ultra Beasts? Also, what if it was just that Alain's Charizard got stronger between the two battles?

Yes, but these cases are considered outliers or PIS, It isn't different form the another cases of other legendaries losing to normal Pokémon's. They wouldn't have as Alain's Mega Charizard X to get sronger, the power gap between the two is too big for him fought Null, and yet Blaze doesn't give a giant boost enough for it.

Except that isn't the reasoning for Alain not being scaled to the Legendaries he fought having inconsistencies.... Yet his Type:Null Silvally has lost to opponents weaker than Ultra Beasts, right? So isn't it inconsistent also?

Especially since I don't think Melmetal has anything other than its fight with Silvally backing up its rating. If it's lost against non-UBs or such just as much as it's won, or the records are close to that, couldn't it be argued that they're PIS or Outliers (Outliers in regards to Gladion's Silvally's Strength.) or such?

(Also, I'm having trouble understanding half of what you said due to typos. No offense. Just confused.)

 

[Jag50]

Wait a minute.

50% Zygarde is stronger than Primal Groudon and Kyogre? Since when?

Also.

Gladion's Silvally is full of contradictions both narratively and figuratively.

If Silvally is as powerful as you claim it to be, No Pokemon in the S/M series would even be able to scratch it. Yet Melmetal nearly defeated it, Kiawe's Turtonator held its own, It was nowhere near capable of fighting Guzzlord on its own despite being "Made to counter Ultra Beasts" etc

Its a two way street here, it doesn't apply to Alain only.

And in this specific situation, the case against Gladion is much heavier and in plentiful amounts compared to Alain's in terms of outliers and PIS.

So again. The feats contradict Silvally's entire business in Alola.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

>Except that isn't the reasoning for Alain not being scaled to the Legendaries he fought having inconsistencies

Alain easily lost to Primal Groudon and then fought Zygarde 50% which is far stronger than the previous one, which Alain "fought". Apart from the fact that Alain in later episodes would be fighting High 7-A again and defeating them with high difficulty? So yes, they are reasons why Alain is not 5-B

>Yet his Type:Null Silvally has lost to opponents weaker than Ultra Beasts, right? So isn't it inconsistent also?

No, if we are going to follow your examples, we would have to contest and have to declare virtually the tier of all legendaries Poké is inconsistent, since at least more than the most of them at least once they have been damaged or defeated by normal Poké's

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Guys, you will someday need to realize that Pokémon almost never portrays legendaries or legendary-level stuff as being mighty untouchable beings millions of times stronger than most mons. This is straight up not consistent.

We can't even claim that it's consistent because legendaries have the better feats when 4-A Gothitelle, High 4-C Gardevoir, 3-A Lanturn and Low 2-C Alakazama are things that exist.

 

[Jag50]

Its canonical that Ash's Sceptile defeated Tobias's Darkrai.

Darkrai who was able to hold back both Palkia and Dialga.

Is every legendary the same tier of strength even in-species or?

Also this isn't the same argument.

Its not a matter of "Legendaries get beaten by highly trained Ace Pokemon in the anime all the time"

Its a matter of Gladion's anime counterpart being a walking outlier in his entirety of Alola with Silvally.

That is not the same thing.

Anime Gladion's feats, standings and showings all continuously contradict Silvally's lore and thus the anime version is nowhere near the inflation of Alain/XY Ash.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't like saying this... but it could be assumed Gladion has an exceptionally weak Silvally.

Yes, the species was built to fight Ultra Beasts, & that's why we scale Silvally to them, and one has wrecked UBs in another canon.

But hasn't Gladion's Silvally been very inconsistent with the "designed to beat Ultra Beasts" justification for its tier? We've had instances where Pokemon from specific continuities are exceptions to their species's tiers (Like Ash's Pikachu & PMD Wigglytuff.), & here's a Silvally that doesn't line up with the whole basis to scale it to Ultra Beasts.

So why not just say this specific Silvally (Anime Gladion's), since it'll be on its own individual profile, and not scaled to the Silvally species, isn't as strong as other Silvally, since it hasn't been consistent with its own justification.

A very weak 5-B is still much stronger than a bunch of 7-As or the like.

 

[NeoZex6399]

I think this is getting out of hand.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There's only one Silvally though. Two at best. The rest were cryogenically frozen.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Only 3 were made.

 

[Imaginym]

"The rest"? And like I said, Silvally was designed to beat Ultra Beasts, but being designed to do something doesn't mean it'll be successful at it, & it has the issue of how many Ultra Beasts Anime Gladion's Silvally has actually done well against.

That said, it may be worthwhile to bring up a thread for discussing the matter.

 

[NeoZex6399]

Also the 3 were unable at the time to assimilate the RKS system.

They were cryogenized because the beast killer project was considered a failure.

 

[Chariot190]

I think the issue is the medium. Mewtwo in the anime is potrayed as an unstoppable god that nothing can touch, not even an army of pokemon yet in the something like origins would only be just a strong pokemon. Or Silvally in the manga and the games has lore to put up there with legends but in the anime its just a strong pokemon along with ultra beasts (bewear can even stand its ground against a pheromosa and beat it and could stall against buzzwole while casual). Legendary Pokemon vary between showings, Dialga ohkoed the ever living shit out of Regigigas in one manga yet in adventures, another manga, Regigigas managed to bodyslam the shit out of it and Palkia (although it didnt stop time, point is showings contradict).And for legends that have multiple of the species, they can vary in power. Pikachu can go from a wall level scrub to an island busting monster if not higher, nothing says that a Darkrai can't vary in power too between species.

I think our issue is being a tad to eager to treat every legendary as the same strength as another of its kind or even treatung legends between different canons, even if composite, as the same tier of strength. We may treat the profiles as composite but Pokemon as a company doesn't, the anime staff aint gonna be looking at how Type:Null is potrayed in various manga to see how strong it should be.

 

[Andytrenom]

3-A Lanturn .

Isn't that 3-A feat literally "Light from really far down in the ocean can be seen prominently in the surface"? If so that isn't really a legit feat, and not even because of being an outlier but because rl science being used to justify obviously inflated ratings (Kinda akin to calcing punches required to create a certain level of destruction through shockwaves)

 

[Imaginym]

(Kinda akin to calcing punches required to create a certain level of destruction through shockwaves)

If someone punches the ground and the surrounding land crumbles to pieces, isn't that a feat?

What if their shockwaves cause dirt to fly off the ground or create very clear winds, such as those that blow paper/clothing, etc.?

Or they punch the ground, and the shockwaves that radiate out violently fragment the ground they pass over into piles of chunks?

Which of those wouldn't be legitimate feats, due to being "obviously inflated ratings"?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The amount of over exaggeration and taking things too literally here is ******* ridiculous.

 

[Andytrenom]

There's a limit to how much you can use real life science and expect the results to be remotely accurately with what the character is capable of

And being massively above baseline universe level for lighting up the sea should be common sense in why it's not an applicable thing

 

[Imaginym]

@ Andytrenom: So would we consider Lanturn's High Universe Level feat of making light visible on the surface of the ocean from very deep in the water be a case of "writers don't know math/science/physics"?

Since it'd be strange to assume Pokemon world's physics are drastically different from real life's, right? Or that Lanturn is 3-A?

(Although, it does make me wonder about Ampharos's light feat, since Tier 7 for a species that is mostly only Tier 7 via scaling, right?)

@ ProfessorKukui4Life: Sorry if I'm contributing to that.

 

[Chariot190]

The amount of over exaggeration and taking things too literally here is ******* ridiculous.

yet the entirity of pokemon's scaling is exactly that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, it's not. The problem here is people not understanding the difference between characters that should actually scale and those who shouldn't because it's outliers for them.

And im explicitly pointing to the whole Sivally discussion where people for an actual moment seriously used Kiawe or other lower-end trainers in comparison as an actual argument for Gladion's being weaker.

 

[Imaginym]

I wouldn't say it's anywhere near as weak as Kiawe's Turtonator. But the justification for Silvally's tier is what it was designed for, in-universe, but when does Anime Gladion's Silvally actually show it's CAPABLE for that purpose?

There've been several fights involving Ultra Beasts, but....

 

[Jag50]

I wouldn't say it's anywhere near as weak as Kiawe's Turtonator. But the justification for Silvally's tier is what it was designed for, in-universe, but when does Anime Gladion's Silvally actually show it's CAPABLE for that purpose?

There've been several fights involving Ultra Beasts, but....

Exactly this.

Its a continuous thing, constantly and consistently within the series.

Its not that hard to comprehend.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

Seriously, how much Type: Null/Silvally is underestimated in this thread is ridiculous.

 

[Chariot190]

Seriously, how much Type: Null/Silvally is underestimated in this thread is ridiculous.

Ok show feats of it in the anime that consistently potray it millions of times above the other pokemon and not only slightly stronger.

 

[Jag50]

Seriously, how much Type: Null/Silvally is underestimated in this thread is ridiculous.

Or how much Anime Silvally is heavily overestimated.