Pokémon - Arceus Plates Revision

[Thelastmlg]

We literally have scans saying that every pokemon's power come from the plates that are pieces of arceus, plus the fact that EVERY pokemon is made of 1 or 2 of the typings that originate from said plates, plus implications that pokemon and humans were the same inside the heart, bonus with the legend plate having the essence of all creation, and arceus being born in the center of chaos where "all things became one"

This is not "he scales in hax to everything he created", this is "every being and their power can be traced back to arceus", he didn't just create them, they are him, the powers they obtained are from him, and so his plates.

I think we should also stop saying "arceus" for this debate because

1. Is already accepted so tackle this in a CRT

2. This is about the plates, so saying arceus is confusing, they are pieces of him.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The limit is the verse's own abilities themselves, how is that NLF? Do not use fallacies when you do not know when they apply.

“Arceus is the creator being in the series therefore every ability and aspect of the franchise can be replicated by him” is the very definition of a no limits fallacy.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

“Arceus is the creator being in the series therefore every ability and aspect of the franchise can be replicated by him” is the very definition of a no limits fallacy.

NLF is exclusively a fallacy that applies when comparing two media. That'd be False Equivalency.


Problem: This isn't the reasoning why It has all hax. It's because the verse is just an extension of Arceus Itself

 

[Thelastmlg]

Can y'all focus on the page itself? This arceus talk is fit for a different CRT because it is already accepted, and it won't be removed here, especially with the lack of context y'all seen to possess about him.

Agree or disagree and give a reasoning, and it should be about the plates page, not about if they or arceus scale or not as that's already accepted, only discuss if a ability falls or not under their aspects.

The legend plate does kinda make that easier tho

 

[Sniper670]

Thank You!! People seem to have forgotten this is about Plates, not Arceus

 

[Sniper670]

Bump

 

[Ayewale]

The limit is the verse's own abilities themselves, how is that NLF? Do not use fallacies when you do not know when they apply.

I don't think this limit really exists imo. If Arceus really had access to every move & and ability, the games would:

1. Give him every move, which they can and will do for Pokemon that are explicitly stated to have all moves (Mew, Smeargle)
2. Say that he has all powers of all Pokemon outright.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't think this limit really exists imo. If Arceus really had access to every move & and ability, the games would:

1. Give him every move, which they can and will do for Pokemon that are explicitly stated to have all moves (Mew, Smeargle)
2. Say that he has all powers of all Pokemon outright.

Limit exists for the verse itself, saying otherwise is ironically NLF for Pokemon itself. Also, balance issues, turns out having a 720 BTS Pokemon have every single move and strategy available to it might be a little broken for competitive play. As a competitive player myself, that sounds like a terrible idea.
And again, the Arceus in the games is just an avatar.

Either way, saying "Arceus is everything" which is what the statements in Legend Arceus are telling us is enough.


Furthermore, we shouldn't really be debating this. Nothing to do with the OP.

 

[Sniper670]

Bump

 

[Sniper670]

Also I've added more details to data manipulation. The Digital World is an actual place humans can be sent to by converting them into programs

 

[GyroNutz]

Arceus is limited to four moves (plus the intrinsic powers he has been shown to have that aren't specific Pokémon moves), and isn't shown to have any other abilities (Pokémon abilities) or shown or said to be able to do whatever everyone else can do.

The whole "4 move limit" thing should stop showing up tbh when Legends: Arceus proves that a Pokemon has access to all of their moves, and they can freely choose which moves they use outside of battles.

As for the OP, Arceus' Plates embody each of the types in Pokemon. They should not be treated as the source of every single power in the verse, like those performed by humans. In fact I'm not convinced that they should be the source of all Pokemon abilities for that matter - non type specific stuff like the Lake Trio's concept manip shouldn't be included. Whether Arceus himself should have these abilities is another matter.

Sidenote, it might be a good idea to use the fact that, in the anime, a single flame plate buffed Heatran to levels where it could fight the Lake Trio as an AP justification.

 

[Ayewale]

Limit exists for the verse itself...

I agree that this is a bit off-topic. Although please don't use balancing as an argument oof

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I agree that this is a bit off-topic. Although please don't use balancing as an argument oof

It is 100% an argument. They HAVE to make Arceus balanced

 

[Livinmeme]

Yeah as much as i disagree with arceus having all powers, taking moves limits of a RPG as true is just downrigth stupid. Most of the time that is done as a balance method and even then, that would just count for his avatar

 

[Sniper670]

As for the OP, Arceus' Plates embody each of the types in Pokemon. They should not be treated as the source of every single power in the verse, like those performed by humans. In fact I'm not convinced that they should be the source of all Pokemon abilities for that matter - non type specific stuff like the Lake Trio's concept manip shouldn't be included. Whether Arceus himself should have these abilities is another matter.

Sidenote, it might be a good idea to use the fact that, in the anime, a single flame plate buffed Heatran to levels where it could fight the Lake Trio as an AP justification.

It didn't even buff him, nor was it even Heatran. The Flame Plate became its own entity and tried to reach the Heavens. Heatran was just trapped inside. So I guess a single plate is 2B, likely 2A for each Plate

I'll make the changes you proposed once I get home

 

[Sniper670]

The whole "4 move limit" thing should stop showing up tbh when Legends: Arceus proves that a Pokemon has access to all of their moves, and they can freely choose which moves they use outside of battles.

As for the OP, Arceus' Plates embody each of the types in Pokemon. They should not be treated as the source of every single power in the verse, like those performed by humans. In fact I'm not convinced that they should be the source of all Pokemon abilities for that matter - non type specific stuff like the Lake Trio's concept manip shouldn't be included. Whether Arceus himself should have these abilities is another matter.

Well.......

レジェンドプレート
万物の力が宿った石盤。あるポケモンに使うと あらゆるタイプの力を得る。

Translation :

Legend Plate
A stone tablet in which the power of all things resides. When used on a Pokémon, it gains the power of all types of Pokémon

 

[Sniper670]

Bump.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Small addition i thought of, the blank plate has the essence of "normalcy", which sounds like a abstract enough thing for conceptual manip

Perhaps we could add the plates name there, like mind, blank, flame, etc? Or would that be redundant?

The earth plate says that it is made from the shards of the universe when it was created, so i think their age could be the universes birth

 

[Sniper670]

Plates being CM is under CM on the plates page

Can you elaborate ? I'm not sure what you mean

Yeah, I'll edit that once I get access to my pc

 

[Thelastmlg]

Plates being CM is under CM on the plates page

Can you elaborate ? I'm not sure what you mean

Yeah, I'll edit that once I get access to my pc

I know, it was another example of concept manip.

The plates each have their name for their types, so i thought we could add each name there.

 

[Sniper670]

I know, it was another example of concept manip.

Ahh, I see what you mean. I'll edit that once I get to my pc

The plates each have their name for their types, so i thought we could add each name there.

Im still lost. Can you demonstrate what you mean?

 

[Thelastmlg]

See, the plates' names in the blog are "life plates, plates", i think we could add the first name of each plate, i.e flame, spooky, blank, legend, etc before "plate"

 

[Sniper670]

Oh that?
I'll update it once i get to my pc

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

I want to point some things:

Plates' speed should be MFTL+, likely Infinite, since you're scaling them to the legendaries, which have such speed.

You should avoid scale the plates to abilities the people they scaled from don't have on their profile, such as their Void Manipulation scaling to Darkrai's, yet Darkrai doesn't have Void Manipulation as an ability on its page (just as Resistance). If you want the plates to have such ability, make a CRT for Darkrai first.

Idrk if Plates should scale to Dark Matter, they may scale, as one of the lake trio are the embodiment of emotions, and Dark Matter is the embodiment of hate, one emotion. But that member of lake trio (I think it was Mesprit, but I'm not sure) doesn't upscale to Dark Matter, so I'm unsure.

Anyway, just pointing that

 

[Sniper670]

I want to point some things:

Plates' speed should be MFTL+, likely Infinite, since you're scaling them to the legendaries, which have such speed.

I'll do that, and remove outright infinite

You should avoid scale the plates to abilities the people they scaled from don't have on their profile, such as their Void Manipulation scaling to Darkrai's, yet Darkrai doesn't have Void Manipulation as an ability on its page (just as Resistance). If you want the plates to have such ability, make a CRT for Darkrai first.

It's fine if you can get a references for where the feat took place.

Since the wiki is now pretty strict with references, it works for my benefit

Idrk if Plates should scale to Dark Matter, they may scale, as one of the lake trio are the embodiment of emotions, and Dark Matter is the embodiment of hate, one emotion. But that member of lake trio (I think it was Mesprit, but I'm not sure) doesn't upscale to Dark Matter, so I'm unsure.

The Plates have the power of all things. I don't think Dark Matter, an inhabitant of the multiverse is exempt

Anyway, just pointing that

I'll take it into consideration. I'll try to address your issues however I can

I had wanted to respond much earlier but another thread trying to remove the plates caught my attention

 

[Sniper670]

Bump.

I made the changes Thelastmg and some of what JustANormalPerson01 proposed(changing speed rating)

 

[Sniper670]

Bump

Need staff help here. One more staff, or two more and we're done

Agree: @GyroNutz(staff), @GodlyCharmander, @Thelastmlg , @Arceus0x, @JustANormalPerson01

Disagree : @Iamunanimousinthat , @Ayewale , @Livinmeme

Neutral:

 

[Ayewale]

It is 100% an argument. They HAVE to make Arceus balanced

But Arceus wasn't even balanced to begin with? The mon was ungodly in Gen 5 and whenever it's used in generation 5 it's comically broken. And what's this about them needing to make legendaries balanced? The past few years of Pokemon have featured the most broken legendaries ever (Xerneas, both Primals, Mega Ray, Zacian-C) both in singles and doubles. Hell, gen 4 itself had the very balanced Dark Void Dakrai.

And Arceus isn't even allowed in VGC (Pokemon's official and only competitive format) so why would they worry about balancing it for competitive if it won't join competitive either way?

Come on dude.

 

[Thelastmlg]

still bringing game balance are we? just because something is broken, doesn't mean they aren't trying to balance it, or better yet, it doesn't mean they have to make it even more broken while mimicing the gimmick of another legendary.

hell, that argument can be used for stats, why are legendaries not untouchanble by normal pokemon and bigger legendaries stomping everything? even if they canonically can? because game balancing/mechanics is not an argument against lore, simple as that, this is headcanoning the gamers intent with no proof besides "why does it matter if he is super op if he is already unbalanced", we call that poor game balancing, not a intentional lore limitation implication

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But Arceus wasn't even balanced to begin with? The mon was ungodly in Gen 5 and whenever it's used in generation 5 it's comically broken. And what's this about them needing to make legendaries balanced? The past few years of Pokemon have featured the most broken legendaries ever (Xerneas, both Primals, Mega Ray, Zacian-C) both in singles and doubles. Hell, gen 4 itself had the very balanced Dark Void Dakrai.

And Arceus isn't even allowed in VGC (Pokemon's official and only competitive format) so why would they worry about balancing it for competitive if it won't join competitive either way?

Come on dude.

WHAT? Arceus is mid, doo-doo water, absolute trash in Ubers, worst is, he always was. Hate to repeat the arguments from past comments but don't talk about something you don't know, specifically when it comes to competitive play. Legendaries are still balanced for their own tiers, which is not even close to be great enough that a common Pokemon can't keep up, there's a reason why Cinderace is currently Ubers.

Uhhh, I don't know, because competitive play isn't met only in VGC? Huh?? What!? What do you mean other people can privately compete with "illegal" Pokemon outside of official competition???
Huh!? What do you mean Arceus isn't even that good to begin with?????
Bonkers logic.

Limiting a Pokemon due to Game Balance is an argument no matter how much you try to fight it.

 

[Livinmeme]

Today we learned is that cinderace solos pokemon verse

 

[Sniper670]

I'll try as much as possible to erase Journeys from memory

 

[Sniper670]

BUMP

 

[Sniper670]

BUMP

 

[Sniper670]

BUMP

 

[Sniper670]

BUMP