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Pokemon - Arceus and his Plate abilities?

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You keep saying energy. What is the energy for fist plate which is literally Martial Arts, Normal Plate, which is a whole lot of nothing in particular , Evil Plate which is just.... Evil. You see why saying energy don't work?

I'll recommend you not use "energy" as an argument here. Not all the Plates are elemental, so it doesn't work

The only logical conclusion is what is literally stated on the plates, it has the power of all things and allows him to use the powers of all types. In this case he keep access to all moves/abilities literally the powers of all things as is said on the Plates
 
It's a beam of energy.... That's about it. Many moves don't use any energy at all, so saying "Energy doesn't work".

Pokémon doesn't necessarily have any energy thing with the Types. So the energy thing you keep saying won't work

.We even made an Energy Manipulation for all Pokémon crt about it which was rejected because Pokémon indeed does not have any energy thing at all for the Typings

I mean, Fist plates for instance is literally just martial Arts... So what energy?
 
You don't give out energy manipulation for just having mana and using it for spells.

Pokémon makes a strict distinction between just a kick and a Pokémon move that is a kick. It's not hard to imagine that they use some energy to strengthen those attacks.
In fact, often physical attacks like that are depicted with some glowing or something in the anime. E.g. Takedown
lpJwGuj.png
 
They.... really don't. Pokémon is full of random things, some use energy, many don't. This same Takdown has been used by others without any energy shown. Eevee comes to mind

This energy arguements, is trying to fix an energy system into Pokémon when one doesn't really exist.

I mean if you still think Pokémon has an energy system then help with this then
 
I think that we should probably go with applying DontTalk's solution here now, and then close this thread, in lack of better options. I think that Maverick also agreed with him. Did any other staff members do so as well?
 
Yemma670 said:
I mean if you still think Pokémon has an energy system then help with this then
Click to expand...
As said, you don't use energy manipulation for being able to use the energy in your body for moves. Otherwise virtually every magician with mana would have it. So that thread is a lost cause regardless.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that we should probably go with applying DontTalk's solution here now, and then close this thread, in lack of better options. I think that Maverick also agreed with him. Did any other staff members do so as well?
Click to expand...
Nah. I don't think DT's arguement will work here, as Pokémon has no energy system to say that what the plate says means it's just energy.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that we should probably go with applying DontTalk's solution here now, and then close this thread, in lack of better options. I think that Maverick also agreed with him. Did any other staff members do so as well?
Click to expand...
I mean, I'm perfectly willing to first have a staff thread debate regarding the "creators should get all abilities" arguments, if Moritzva or other staff really wishes to consider that line of reasoning.
 
You can't continue to stonewall this thread forever if it has been accepted by our staff.
 
DontTalkDT said:
As said, you don't use energy manipulation for being able to use the energy in your body for moves. Otherwise virtually every magician with mana would have it. So that thread is a lost cause regardless.
Click to expand...
Okay, Fist Plate, which is martial arts is not energy.

And it's one of the plates that Arceus possess to use the powers of.
 
Antvasima said:
You can't continue to stonewall this thread forever if it has been accepted by our staff.
Click to expand...
So we're just going to ignore what the plates says and apply arbitrary "Energy" and call it a day

After I pointed out this energy won't work and the Plates are actually referring to the moves

I'm a stonewaller now? Wow
 
I'm pretty neutral here leaning towards disagree with the OP. But i agree with DT regarding the stuff about "creators should get all abilities" arguments and depending on that may change the point of view of others.
 
Antvasima said:
You can't continue to stonewall this thread forever if it has been accepted by our staff.
Click to expand...
he ain't stonewalling he is trying to debunk points.

Stonewalling is

-X is Y
-No, X isn't Y because Z
-no, X is Y

but what Yemma is doing here is more of a

-X is Y
*No, X isn't Y because Z
-No, X is Y because B
*B isn't real because D, and X isn't Y because Z
 
Last edited:
Thank you for helping out, Dereck03.
 
Arceus0x said:
he ain't stonewalling he is trying to debunk points.

Stonewalling is

-X is Y
-No, X is Y because Z
-no, X is Y

but what Yemma is doing here is more of a

-X is Y
*No, X isn't Y because Z
-No, X is Y because B
*B isn't real because D, and X isn't Y because Z
Click to expand...
Okay. Sorry about that then.
 
While Yemma does repeat some of his points, that is mostly because the opponent does the same and when a new point is presented he responds to it accordingly. I don't want Yemma treated as just a stonewaller, technically he is one of the only remaining experts on tier 2-1 pokemon if we don't count Executor who just appears and disappears every once in a while
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Which argument have I presented that is weak?
Click to expand...
every time you get countered you've been cutting down your argument and so it has gotten weaker and weaker and so far, nothing you've said has conivnced me. Also out of all the arguments so far using game mechanics had to be the weakest one.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean, I'm perfectly willing to first have a staff thread debate regarding the "creators should get all abilities" arguments, if Moritzva or other staff really wishes to consider that line of reasoning.
Click to expand...
I prefer a case-by-case analysis in that regard. In this situation, they are explicitly able to directly and at-will summon all Pokemon (including man-made ones), and you could argue that the Plates and similar is supporting evidence in that regard. Maybe neither point on it's own is enough, but the two together should work.

If a thread is to be made on the general topic, that's fine, but the conclusions on this thread should remain regardless.
 
I wanna mention something quickly.
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Notice I said summon/create because it's not specific if Arceus summons or creates pokemon for the reverie.
Click to expand...
You can fight things like Tornadus in that mode, last I checked, Tornadus was one of those Pokemon where only one exists given it's only ever talked about in singular like Thundurus and Lando, and you can catch it in Arceus, yet you can fight one in that mode even after the fact. Even with said very Tornadus, meaning they ain't the same entity.

Meaning, he either creates them, or he's ripping a completely random Tornadus with Multiversal BFR/Teleportation from a different world (that or through time, but that open the gates to potential time paradox stuff for them, but we know pokemon and the like are 100% effected by time paradoxes as it's happened before in multiple games and media, like Celebi and Pyrce shit in the manga, Explorers, the Arceus movie funnily enough, etc).
Given we know Arceus can indeed create Pokemon as he's done so before, I'd assume him creating them takes less assumptions than Multiversal tp as time teleportation and summoning from the same world is off the table seemingly. Though someone mentioned it was a dream so in that case, who knows.
 
Chariot190 said:
I wanna mention something quickly.

You can fight things like Tornadus in that mode, last I checked, Tornadus was one of those Pokemon where only one exists given it's only ever talked about in singular like Thundurus and Lando, and you can catch it in Arceus, yet you can fight one in that mode even after the fact. Even with said very Tornadus, meaning they ain't the same entity.

Meaning, he either creates them, or he's ripping a completely random Tornadus with Multiversal BFR/Teleportation from a different world (that or through time, but that open the gates to potential time paradox stuff for them, but we know pokemon and the like are 100% effected by time paradoxes as it's happened before in multiple games and media, like Celebi and Pyrce shit in the manga, Explorers, the Arceus movie funnily enough, etc).
Given we know Arceus can indeed create Pokemon as he's done so before, I'd assume him creating them takes less assumptions than Multiversal tp as time teleportation and summoning from the same world is off the table seemingly. Though someone mentioned it was a dream so in that case, who knows.
Click to expand...
Considering Arceus stopped the space/time distortion caused by Hoopa, I don’t see this to be something Arceus can’t get over.

Also we don’t where exactly the battle reverie happens, so its possible that summoning pokemon out time and space won’t have dire effect.

but the reason i mentioned both summoning/creating is that we have two examples of pokemon doing either: hoopa and unown. (And ho-oh to an extent now that I remember)

Let’s say you are 100% correct, we still have Unown creating pokemon. We don’t consider unown to have all the powers of the pokemon they create. (And in the manga, Arceus uses unown to create the creation trio)
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Considering Arceus stopped the space/time distortion caused by Hoopa, I don’t see this to be something Arceus can’t get over.

Also we don’t where exactly the battle reverie happens, so its possible that summoning pokemon out time and space won’t have dire effect.

but the reason i mentioned both summoning/creating is that we have two examples of pokemon doing either: hoopa and unown. (And ho-oh to an extent now that I remember)

Let’s say you are 100% correct, we still have Unown creating pokemon. We don’t consider unown to have all the powers of the pokemon they create. (And in the manga, Arceus uses unown to create the creation trio)
Click to expand...
What's Hoops gotta do with if he's summoning or creating? Context is key, and that example doesn't really tie in here.

We know that Arceus spawns Pokemon to battle you.
We know that in some cases they CANT be taken from your world because you can have them too, so they just different. We know time paradoxes a thing and is fully established in multiple media, so him pulling it from before you catch it is a bit suspect but also requires more assumptions anyway.

Which means he must be creating them, something we know he can do. Or he's teleporting copies from completely different realities. The former seems more inline with Arceus and how we see it act usually.
That's the two options we have that don't require a slew of extra assumptions.
As he's shown time and again to be able to create Pokemon, I'm leaning toward him creating them as being what's happening.

What's Unown matter? I didn't say anything about this being evidence for why he should have every ability, I was pointing out between summoning and creating, him flat out manifesting them out of thin air, unironically, has far less contradictions, whether or not people want to use that as evidence was never my point.
 
Moritzva said:
I prefer a case-by-case analysis in that regard. In this situation, they are explicitly able to directly and at-will summon all Pokemon (including man-made ones), and you could argue that the Plates and similar is supporting evidence in that regard. Maybe neither point on it's own is enough, but the two together should work.

If a thread is to be made on the general topic, that's fine, but the conclusions on this thread should remain regardless.
Click to expand...
I mean, that's really not different from the general case. All creator deities can at-will just create the entities they have created... that's what makes them creator entities.

If that's the larger argument, like you initially said, many other creator entities can also follow up with minor evidence. It's really not that rare. So I think that is very much also a general concern.

I will make the thread in any case.
 
Chariot190 said:
What's Hoops gotta do with if he's summoning or creating? Context is key, and that example doesn't really tie in here.
Click to expand...
In the movie, Hoopa created a spacetime distortion by summoning too many legendaries and Arceus stopped it.


Chariot190 said:
We know that Arceus spawns Pokemon to battle you.
We know that in some cases they CANT be taken from your world because you can have them too, so they just different. We know time paradoxes a thing and is fully established in multiple media, so him pulling it from before you catch it is a bit suspect but also requires more assumptions anyway.

Which means he must be creating them, something we know he can do. Or he's teleporting copies from completely different realities. The former seems more inline with Arceus and how we see it act usually.
That's the two options we have that don't require a slew of extra assumptions.
As he's shown time and again to be able to create Pokemon, I'm leaning toward him creating them as being what's happening.
Click to expand...
He could also summon from another universe but I can see what you’re saying.


Chariot190 said:
What's Unown matter? I didn't say anything about this being evidence for why he should have every ability, I was pointing out between summoning and creating, him flat out manifesting them out of thin air, unironically, has far less contradictions, whether or not people want to use that as evidence was never my point.
Click to expand...

okay. Its clear now.
 
DontTalkDT said:
I mean, that's really not different from the general case. All creator deities can at-will just create the entities they have created... that's what makes them creator entities.

If that's the larger argument, like you initially said, many other creator entities can also follow up with minor evidence. It's really not that rare. So I think that is very much also a general concern.
Click to expand...

Unown and Ho-oh both have feats of creating pokemon, and they don't have the powers of the pokemon they created.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Unown and Ho-oh both have feats of creating pokemon, and they don't have the powers of the pokemon they created.
Click to expand...
Wasn't Ho-Oh less of a feat of creation, and more a feat of reviving+empowerment?
Almost positive that it was 3 route 1 foddermons died in a fire, and he just revived them but roided out as legendary beasts.

Then they forgot the lore and made it so there's a bunch of those beasts and they aren't at all unique, which to this very day, I don't understand, like did Ho-Oh just randomly pick a pre-existing species of Pokemon to reincarnate them as and it went with just 3 strong beast mons if the beasts existed prior as a species? Idk it's wacky, but Ho-Oh is a case of empowerment+reviving, or flat out reincarnation.

Unown do be doing that tho.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Unown and Ho-oh both have feats of creating pokemon, and they don't have the powers of the pokemon they created.
Click to expand...
1. Arceus has a direct statement of having said powers, in addition to that.
2. Unown and Ho-oh do not have it


And I love how the "energy" arguement has been ignored to get this CRT over and done..

Plus, you're still outvoted.. In case you missed it
 
Chariot190 said:
What's Hoops gotta do with if he's summoning or creating? Context is key, and that example doesn't really tie in here.

We know that Arceus spawns Pokemon to battle you.
We know that in some cases they CANT be taken from your world because you can have them too, so they just different. We know time paradoxes a thing and is fully established in multiple media, so him pulling it from before you catch it is a bit suspect but also requires more assumptions anyway.

Which means he must be creating them, something we know he can do. Or he's teleporting copies from completely different realities. The former seems more inline with Arceus and how we see it act usually.
That's the two options we have that don't require a slew of extra assumptions.
As he's shown time and again to be able to create Pokemon, I'm leaning toward him creating them as being what's happening.

What's Unown matter? I didn't say anything about this being evidence for why he should have every ability, I was pointing out between summoning and creating, him flat out manifesting them out of thin air, unironically, has far less contradictions, whether or not people want to use that as evidence was never my point.
Click to expand...
1. Arceus created copies of Legendaries to test humans in the manga

2. He created the CT in the games without a single plate.

So.
a. Op argument that Arceus can only change form with Plates and nothing else was false. Now he says "general abilities".. I asked what the general abilities of Normal Plate and Fist Plate is and I've not got an answer till now

b. Op Argument that Arceus summons and not create Pokémon was false
 
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