Pokemon Energy Manipulation

[Arceus0x]

So, to put it shortly, Pokemon should have energy manipulation.

Here's the deal.


To put it shortly, it takes a certain amount of energy from a pokemon to use different attacks and some attacks take so much energy that it makes the pokemon recover it for a while.

This fits with other attacks such as
Solar beam:

The strongest Grass-type attack. Energy is absorbed in the first turn, then fired the next turn.

Stockpile and Spit up:

The user charges up power for use later. It can be used three times.

"The power stored using the move Stockpile is released at once in an attack. The more power is stored, the greater the damage."

Drain Punch:
"An energy-draining punch. The user's HP is restored by half the damage taken by the target."

This means that Pokemon possess energy and need to use that energy for attacks such as Hyperbeam which is so potent it drains said energy.

But here is the important part

Due to the fact that Pokemon use energy for each move and the fact that some drain their pokemon to the point of having to recover (Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, Hyper Beam) means that Pokemon should be able to scale to Moves that manipulate weather because those moves are treated as normal attacks which don't drain their user to the point of them having to recover. This will make calcs such as this possible to scale (once i do em properly).

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with this.

 

[Sniper670]

But here is the important part

Due to the fact that Pokemon use energy for each move and the fact that some drain their pokemon to the point of having to recover (Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, Frenzy Plant, Hyper Beam) means that Pokemon should be able to scale to Moves that manipulate weather because those moves are treated as normal attacks which don't drain their user to the point of them having to recover. This will make calcs such as this possible to scale (once i do em properly).

Excuse for the probably dumb question. But if I'm getting you straight, his Ap will scale to the weather feat due to the amount of energy it expelled to move the clouds?

 

[Arceus0x]

Excuse for the probably dumb question. But if I'm getting you straight, his Ap will scale to the weather feat due to the amount of energy it expelled to move the clouds?

basically yeah though the calc is ass

 

[Chariot190]

The energy in Solar Beam is more so talking about solar energy, but yeah I agree, also explains PP as a mechanic.

 

[Arceus0x]

The energy in Solar Beam is more so talking about solar energy, but yeah I agree, also explains PP as a mechanic.

It sorta does but at the same time we do have to keep PP in game mechanics as it contradicts stuff like Viktini having canonically limitless energy

 

[Sniper670]

The energy in Solar Beam is more so talking about solar energy,

It's more like there is an underlying energy that allows it to be able to fuel the mechanism to absorb the solar energy

 

[Sniper670]

basically yeah though the calc is ass

Alright....

 

[Chariot190]

It's more like there is an underlying energy that allows it to be able to fuel the mechanism to absorb the solar energy

Energy is absorbed in the first turn, then fired the next turn.

It's saying energy is absorbed, as in it takes in solar energy, and then that very same energy, that being solar, is fired the next turn.
It's even why we treat it as lightspeed, it takes in sunlight and then fires it off shortly after. The energy referenced in that line isn't innate energy but rather the energy they draw from sunlight to do the attack in the first place, them being able to do it in the first place could be due to an innate energy, I'm just saying the energy referenced in that sentence isn't it. I'd also say Drain Punch is an odd one out too. but it doesn't matter, I agree with the addition overall.

 

[Chariot190]

It sorta does but at the same time we do have to keep PP in game mechanics as it contradicts stuff like Viktini having canonically limitless energy

Wouldn't that just be a Victini thing being game mechanics? Especially with the existence of items that increase PP and abilities that lower PP like pressure implying its existence? Because that Electabuzz example I'm 99% sure is referring to PP, even if not by name.

 

[Arceus0x]

Wouldn't that just be a Victini thing being game mechanics? Especially with the existence of items that increase PP and abilities that lower PP like pressure implying its existence? Because that Electabuzz example I'm 99% sure is referring to PP, even if not by name.

I guess, it still shouldn't have the numbers though

 

[Sniper670]

It's saying energy is absorbed, as in it takes in solar energy, and then that very same energy, that being solar, is fired the next turn.
It's even why we treat it as lightspeed, it takes in sunlight and then fires it off shortly after. The energy referenced in that line isn't innate energy but rather the energy they draw from sunlight to do the attack in the first place, them being able to do it in the first place could be due to an innate energy, I'm just saying the energy referenced in that sentence isn't it. I'd also say Drain Punch is an odd one out too. but it doesn't matter, I agree with the addition overall.

Without the PP(Innate Energy), they wouldn't be able to draw the energy from the sun in the first place

That's what I was trying to say

 

[Arceus0x]

Either way just to support my claim about weather manip, Alakazam charges an energy ball and shoots it into the sky to create the storm

 

[Arceus0x]

its called weather ball btw

 

[Arceus0x]

btw recalced alakazam to 2.38 gigatons https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Arceus0x/Alakazam_moves_some_clouds_redux

 

[Sniper670]

 

[Lou_change]

I mean this might be something. It sounds more like an energy system then anything else tho and I don't think that is enough for energy manipulation it probably is but not sure the rest of the logic seems fine.

 

[Sniper670]

Bump.

Arceus0x can you get staff to help out. This is the least controversial ongoing Pokémon crt. Should be relatively easy to get it through

 

[Sniper670]

Although I had time to think about it. Isn't it just stamina?

 

[Arceus0x]

Although I had time to think about it. Isn't it just stamina?

Nope, how tf do you shoot stamina as energy dawg wtf

 

[Arceus0x]

Same goes for Drain punch as it absorbs energy specifically when stuff like giga drain absorbs nutrients or hp according to descriptions

 

[Ayewale]

Pokemon don't have energy manipulation already? That's kinda wild. I agree with this CRT.

Not sure about the weather stuff but it seems to make sense. Never thought "what's the AP of rain dance" but it can be calced.

 

[Sniper670]

Nope, how tf do you shoot stamina as energy dawg wtf

Makes sense.

 

[Sniper670]

Same goes for Drain punch as it absorbs energy specifically when stuff like giga drain absorbs nutrients or hp according to descriptions

So HP is stamina then?

 

[Arceus0x]

So HP is stamina then?

yes, it is confirmed by the anime

 

[Arceus0x]

btw to add things to the mix,

it is likely that pokemon require certain levels of energy to evolve

 

[Sniper670]

Interesting. It seems to have something to do with exp

Anyway, the whole energy thing is also used in Pokémon TCG. Energy cards is what powers attacks

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[Armorchompy]

I disagree with this, I think you're taking "energy" way too literally when it's clearly just meant to indicate stamina. Hyper Beam simply briefly tires out a Pokemon when using it and so on. The fact that some moves revolve around gathering energy doesn't mean it's a core concept behind every move.

Also, all moves in Pokèmon run on their own PP supply, it's not something universal. So even if it were energy manip it wouldn't make moves scale to each other or the Pokèmon.

 

[Sniper670]

I disagree with this, I think you're taking "energy" way too literally when it's clearly just meant to indicate stamina. Hyper Beam simply briefly tires out a Pokemon when using it and so on. The fact that some moves revolve around gathering energy doesn't mean it's a core concept behind every move.

Also, all moves in Pokèmon run on their own PP supply, it's not something universal. So even if it were energy manip it wouldn't make moves scale to each other or the Pokèmon.

Stamina is HP, not PP, meaning Power Point

As I mentioned before this system is what they modeled Pokémon TCG move use after. You choose the energy required to use a move, if you dont have the number of energy required, you can't use the move

But I'll wait to hear what Arceus0x has to say about your stance

 

[Armorchompy]

Stamina is HP, not PP, meaning Power Point

As I mentioned before this system is what they modeled Pokémon TCG move use after. You choose the energy required to use a move, if you dont have the number of energy required, you can't use the move

"Power" can very well be constructed to mean stamina too. Regardless, if there's a universal supply of energy powering a Pokémon's moves, then why can they still use other moves as much as they like after exhausting one's PP? One would expect all the attacks to draw from the same source, given the conclusions taken by OP.

As for TCG there is an extreme amount of abstraction going into its gameplay workings, I wouldn't use it as evidence for anything

 

[Sniper670]

They do draw from the energy in Arceus plates. As the Plates are the source or the core or the essence from which all powers and abilities originate


Why not? You choose grass energy card, you apply the number required to the specific grass move, you use the move.

All that, with the evidence provided by the games, Anime and manga supports the fact they use energy distinct from Stamina, which I mentioned before, is HP

 

[Armorchompy]

They do draw from the energy in Arceus plates. As the Plates are the source or the core or the essence from which all powers and abilities originate

Being the source of all powers =/= all powers drawing energy from them, please show scans, context matters here.

Why not? You choose grass energy card, you apply the number required to the specific grass move, you use the move.

Right, and that works completely differently from how PP does in the games so I'm not sure why you're arguing this in favor of consistency, especially when energy here is something that Pokémon do not start with and have to receive/gather/be given/however you un-abstract that.

The concept of energy "types" also fully goes against how it works in the games with stuff like Ethers restoring PP universally, especially when Normal is used to fuel various elemental types of moves, which absolutely makes no sense based on the previous interpretation of things, especially if you try to tie Plates into it.

 

[Sniper670]

I'll give a proper response later

 

[Arceus0x]

I disagree with this, I think you're taking "energy" way too literally when it's clearly just meant to indicate stamina. Hyper Beam simply briefly tires out a Pokemon when using it and so on. The fact that some moves revolve around gathering energy doesn't mean it's a core concept behind every move.

as stated above stamina is HP. An example can be found in Ash vs Dracnea where her pokemon uses a move which in game cuts half of the opponent's HP and the people observing state that the attack cuts the opponent's stamina in half. Stamina is never referred to as energy. In move descriptions stamina is specifically HP as well and here is an example of super fang with descriptions including ones from the game the hyper beam description came from

If it hits, this attack cuts the target's HP in half. Learned by Pokémon with developed fangs.
GSC	Cuts the foe's HP by 1/2.
RSE	Attacks with sharp fangs and cuts half the foe's HP.
FRLG	The user attacks with sharp fangs and halves the foe's HP.
Colo.XD	Sharp-fanged attack that cuts half the target's HP.
DPPtHGSSPBR	The user chomps hard on the foe with its sharp front fangs. It cuts the target's HP to half.
BWB2W2	The user chomps hard on the target with its sharp front fangs. It cuts the target's HP to half.
XYORAS SMUSUMPE SwShBDSPLA	The user chomps hard on the target with its sharp front fangs. This cuts the target's HP in half.

As you can see it is HP all the way no matter what. Also just to add, hyper beam is also said to make you need to "recharge" after firing it. I don't see why you need recharging if it is stamina, you'd need a rest.

Also why tf would you need stamina to fire a friggin laser beam? Answer me that please. It literally is the side effect of firing it. You can't turn stamina into an energy beam and even if you could it would directly drain HP. Why is throwing a barrage of punches such as bullet punch or close combat less energy draining than firing a beam? Because it is actual energy, not stamina or whatever. There are moves that sacrifice HP and that means that they sacrifice stamina as well, they don't need recharging however.

Overall i disagree with you on all accounts. Regarding TCG...idk anything about it so if Yemma wants to argue for it then he can go ahead.
Otherwise we have

A source of all energy - plates
the energy can be used to execute moves
super powerful moves require more energy than others

i see nothing related to stamina here.

 

[Arceus0x]

Regardless, if there's a universal supply of energy powering a Pokémon's moves, then why can they still use other moves as much as they like after exhausting one's PP?

because there isn't a universal supply of energy but rather pokemon's own energy which they have and can recover as shown by the hyper beam example. I ain't trying to prove there is a universal energy system but rather the fact that pokemon use energy to shoot things and they can use it to execute moves and they require more energy to shoot beams than creating rain and stuff

 

[Arceus0x]

here is the stamina = HP evidence. Fangs of rage or rather Fangs of wrath is the japanese name of Super Fang

 

[Armorchompy]

as stated above stamina is HP. An example can be found in Ash vs Dracnea where her pokemon uses a move which in game cuts half of the opponent's HP and the people observing state that the attack cuts the opponent's stamina in half. Stamina is never referred to as energy. In move descriptions stamina is specifically HP as well and here is an example of super fang with descriptions including ones from the game the hyper beam description came from

If it hits, this attack cuts the target's HP in half. Learned by Pokémon with developed fangs.
GSC	Cuts the foe's HP by 1/2.
RSE	Attacks with sharp fangs and cuts half the foe's HP.
FRLG	The user attacks with sharp fangs and halves the foe's HP.
Colo.XD	Sharp-fanged attack that cuts half the target's HP.
DPPtHGSSPBR	The user chomps hard on the foe with its sharp front fangs. It cuts the target's HP to half.
BWB2W2	The user chomps hard on the target with its sharp front fangs. It cuts the target's HP to half.
XYORAS SMUSUMPE SwShBDSPLA	The user chomps hard on the target with its sharp front fangs. This cuts the target's HP in half.

Beyond the fact that I disagree with taking a statement from the anime and appling it to a mechanic of the games that it's trying to contextualize, assuming stamina can only be related to one statistics, not multiple, is incredibly wrong, given that Stamina is also a Pokéathlon stat (bound to Defense), Mudbray/sdale's ability, Belly in PMD (As indicated by the Stamina Band item which lowers Belly consumption) and so on

As you can see it is HP all the way no matter what. Also just to add, hyper beam is also said to make you need to "recharge" after firing it. I don't see why you need recharging if it is stamina, you'd need a rest.

Also why tf would you need stamina to fire a friggin laser beam? Answer me that please. It literally is the side effect of firing it. You can't turn stamina into an energy beam and even if you could it would directly drain HP. Why is throwing a barrage of punches such as bullet punch or close combat less energy draining than firing a beam? Because it is actual energy, not stamina or whatever. There are moves that sacrifice HP and that means that they sacrifice stamina as well, they don't need recharging however.

You're right, it would be very silly if you needed to rest after using Hyper Beam. Speaking of which:

Pokemon Stadium/Stadium 2 descriptions of Hyper Beam: "An extremely powerful attack. The attacker becomes so tired, it has to rest the next turn."
FRLG Hyper Beam: "A severely damaging attack that makes the user rest on the next turn."
BWB2W2 Hyper Beam: "The target is attacked with a powerful beam. The user must rest on the next turn to regain its energy."
BWB2W2 Giga Impact: "The user charges at the target using every bit of its power. The user must rest on the next turn."
Gen 4 Rock Wrecker: "The user launches a huge boulder at the foe to attack. It must rest on the next turn, however."
Gen 4 Roar of Time: "The user blasts the foe with power that distorts even time. The user must rest on the next turn."

because there isn't a universal supply of energy but rather pokemon's own energy which they have and can recover as shown by the hyper beam example. I ain't trying to prove there is a universal energy system but rather the fact that pokemon use energy to shoot things and they can use it to execute moves and they require more energy to shoot beams than creating rain and stuff

And how do you know the energy conversion is equally efficient for both? Pokémon aren't strictly magic, and we know they're better at performing certain moves than others given STAB and special/physical split, I don't see why we should assume that shooting beams isn't inherently harder than making a storm.

 

[Sniper670]

Being the source of all powers =/= all powers drawing energy from them, please show scans, context matters here.

The plates is the essence of all powers in the Cosmology.

It's heavily implied these powers are themselves the cells within Pokémon.

All this can be traced back to the source. No plates, no types, no powers.

The concept of energy "types" also fully goes against how it works in the games with stuff like Ethers restoring PP universally, especially when Normal is used to fuel various elemental types of moves, which absolutely makes no sense based on the previous interpretation of things, especially if you try to tie Plates into it.

What I meant is they draw from the same concept of using "Energy" to fuel all their attacks. Blantanly so with its depiction in tcg

You say it's stamina which has already been debunked by the anime, games and manga, even TCG

It's you're word against canon

 

[Arceus0x]

Beyond the fact that I disagree with taking a statement from the anime and appling it to a mechanic of the games that it's trying to contextualize, assuming stamina can only be related to one statistics, not multiple, is incredibly wrong, given that Stamina is also a Pokéathlon stat (bound to Defense), Mudbray/sdale's ability, Belly in PMD (As indicated by the Stamina Band item which lowers Belly consumption) and so on

irrelevant, HP is tied to defense in some ways as it literally is the thing that prevents you from losing it and belly is a PMD mechanics and we don't use PMD mechanics due to the simple fact that there are things such as linked moves and throwable weapons in there.

You're right, it would be very silly if you needed to rest after using Hyper Beam. Speaking of which:

Pokemon Stadium/Stadium 2 descriptions of Hyper Beam: "An extremely powerful attack. The attacker becomes so tired, it has to rest the next turn."
FRLG Hyper Beam: "A severely damaging attack that makes the user rest on the next turn."
BWB2W2 Hyper Beam: "The target is attacked with a powerful beam. The user must rest on the next turn to regain its energy."
BWB2W2 Giga Impact: "The user charges at the target using every bit of its power. The user must rest on the next turn."
Gen 4 Rock Wrecker: "The user launches a huge boulder at the foe to attack. It must rest on the next turn, however."
Gen 4 Roar of Time: "The user blasts the foe with power that distorts even time. The user must rest on the next turn."

you countered one thing but ignored the other. I still see no explanation to why would it be stamina that drains when hyper beam and other moves are being used and not energy. You need to rest for a bit to recharge energy, that is logical. Doesn't counter the fact that pokemon need energy to attack here.

And how do you know the energy conversion is equally efficient for both? Pokémon aren't strictly magic, and we know they're better at performing certain moves than others given STAB and special/physical split, I don't see why we should assume that shooting beams isn't inherently harder than making a storm.

because it isn't inherently harder as otherwise we'd actually see it being harder. Pokemon casually use those attacks and need no rest or anything, meanwhile attacks such as blast burn and hydro canon are considered the ultimate pokemon moves for that specific type.