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- #161
The light indicates nothing of the sort, that's just an assumption. Vaporizing something does produce a lot of light, also the Tsar bomba produced a flash bright enough to be seen from 1,000 km away.
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Piccolo Moon Feat Downgrade
- Thread starter ByAsura
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The Tsar Bomba wasn's was a vaporization weapon; it was a nuclear explosion; which still makes use of Kinetic energy.
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- #163
Thermonuclear weapons deal damage with kinetic energy, and even that's just part of it, but they're radiological and heat-based (roughtly 50%). My point was much weaker weapons from real life produce extremely bright flashes.
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58 Megatons comes from pretty much all of the above. And yes, I know nukes are a combination of multiple things.
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You should ask some other staff members listed in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.
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I will give my views on the OP once I read this thread but IIRC it was decided that we can use anime timeframe as long as it doesn't contradict its presentation in the manga. In the manga it seemed to happen instantly or in a very small duration, so I believe its worth looking at the anime for confirming the timeframe.
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- #167
Here's the scene.
The blast took 3.64 seconds to reach the moon, which is 35.225831628% SoL (Relativistic).
The blast took 3.64 seconds to reach the moon, which is 35.225831628% SoL (Relativistic).
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AKM sama said:
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Yeah, I like AKM Sama's proposal. Furthermore, I was told that the calculation for the moon busting feat was low-balled as the minimum amount of energy required for the fragments of the moon to get launched far enough to land on Earth; same with Master Roshi's version albiet an outlier in that instance.
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The manga, the Anime used the cinematic timeframe and the Kinetic energy.
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Pretty sure Kepekley actually found details in which there were.
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What did Kep say?
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Alright, on the topic of this thread, ki attacks do vaporize something without a trace but then they have to completely envelop the target. And for that the ki attack needs to be spread in a large area, at least as much as the target (for example Tambourine's death, Ginyu Tagoma's death, Freeza, Cell, Buu etc etc).
The attack Piccolo unleashed doesn't have the area to cover the moon entirely for it to vaporize it. It is much more logical to assume that it happened in the same fashion as every other planet busting scene in the franchise. A ki attack hits it, it shines for a moment and explodes into bits in a flash of light. That's the staple really. Also makes a lot more sense because Piccolo specifically says "blowing up the moon was the best decision".
Now about the pieces not being visible in that panel, it could either be because the pieces flew away when the flash of light happened and went out of the panel's field of view, or because they were really small to be visible from Earth.
The attack Piccolo unleashed doesn't have the area to cover the moon entirely for it to vaporize it. It is much more logical to assume that it happened in the same fashion as every other planet busting scene in the franchise. A ki attack hits it, it shines for a moment and explodes into bits in a flash of light. That's the staple really. Also makes a lot more sense because Piccolo specifically says "blowing up the moon was the best decision".
Now about the pieces not being visible in that panel, it could either be because the pieces flew away when the flash of light happened and went out of the panel's field of view, or because they were really small to be visible from Earth.
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- #179
That's a staple of the Dragon Ball Z anime, not its manga counterpart. We only see someone blowing up a celestial body a few times in the manga (not including Namek's destruction, as that's the planet detonating due to the destruction of its core). The first and second are Roshi and Piccolo blowing up the moon, which are both in the same style. The third is Frieza blowing up planet Vegeta, where there's just bright light and maybe absolutely tiny debris as Bardock is blown away. Lastly, Kid Buu instantly blows up the Earth, and there's no debris when he reforms.
If you want to delve into canon films and tv, that's fine. Here's both versions of Frieza destroying planet Vegeta. In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Frieza's supernova explodes against Vegeta, causing the planet to crack and explode, leaving a debris field. In the DBS anime, it's similar to what you describe.
The term "blowing up" or "blowing to bits" is used liberally. For example, Vegeta uses both terms in the same context after he realizes the moon has been destroyed, and that's inspite of not knowing the cause. From what I've found, blowing up can also translate to "blast" in Japanese.
Again, if it was blown out of the panel, the feat would be significantly higher than what the calc suggests. Plus, the calc is still flawed regardless of KE being a viable option. I'm fairly sure it would be visible, there's a dust cloud that's visible from Earth despite its low density (1,000,000 dust grains per thousand cubic kilometers), and it occupies multiple points of the Earth-Moon system.
If you want to delve into canon films and tv, that's fine. Here's both versions of Frieza destroying planet Vegeta. In Dragon Ball Super: Broly, Frieza's supernova explodes against Vegeta, causing the planet to crack and explode, leaving a debris field. In the DBS anime, it's similar to what you describe.
The term "blowing up" or "blowing to bits" is used liberally. For example, Vegeta uses both terms in the same context after he realizes the moon has been destroyed, and that's inspite of not knowing the cause. From what I've found, blowing up can also translate to "blast" in Japanese.
Again, if it was blown out of the panel, the feat would be significantly higher than what the calc suggests. Plus, the calc is still flawed regardless of KE being a viable option. I'm fairly sure it would be visible, there's a dust cloud that's visible from Earth despite its low density (1,000,000 dust grains per thousand cubic kilometers), and it occupies multiple points of the Earth-Moon system.
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"Blowing something to bits" or "Blasting" would inherently mean that it's a literal explosion in the form of a fragmentation style. Which isn't the same as boiling them all the way to steam, which would be vaporization. And AKM Sama is right that we need to assume the blast covers the area to vaporize as KI has literally never vaporized something unless the AoE was massive. Not something a basic Ki blast would do. Blowing something up can still generate some dust clouds due to some parts being pulverized. Nuking things are typically not vaporization.
And yes, the calculation is actually lowballed, so it should be even higher than what we currently have if anything. Meaning this could be an upgrade thread rather than a downgrade thread.
And yes, the calculation is actually lowballed, so it should be even higher than what we currently have if anything. Meaning this could be an upgrade thread rather than a downgrade thread.
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- #181
He didn't say blow to bits, that was an example, and terms like "blow up", "crush", "pulverise" and "flatten" can simply mean destroy, and generally do. Most basic ki blasts don't even destroy planets, the ones that do have been shown to, on occasion, obliterate celestial bodies and leave no debris. The blast itself didn't, but there's clearly a huge flash of light, indicating that it engulfed the moon.
It wasn't shown to produce a dust cloud or nuke anything, though, that's the problem. A dust cloud would've been visible from space, a gas cloud would dissipate.
The timeframe goes from 8.92 seconds to 2.9 at the very highest, and that's still using methods I already explained were flawed due to the rocks having fallen before the blasts were even fired.
It wasn't shown to produce a dust cloud or nuke anything, though, that's the problem. A dust cloud would've been visible from space, a gas cloud would dissipate.
The timeframe goes from 8.92 seconds to 2.9 at the very highest, and that's still using methods I already explained were flawed due to the rocks having fallen before the blasts were even fired.
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I do think that the rocks falling isn't a very good method of calculating the timeframe. So the calc can have flaws in that regard, even though the timeframe looks reasonably lowballed to me.
But I still don't think that little beam was enough to vaporize the moon. Even if all those planet busting happened in anime, it still makes it a much more likely assumption than vaporizing a celestial body, that never happened in the franchise. The flash of light we see for which Piccolo averted his eyes is most likely a product of a huge explosion. The rubble of the moon could be very small in size and blown away by the time Piccolo opened his eyes again. It might increase the yield but the calc is still lowballed.
But I still don't think that little beam was enough to vaporize the moon. Even if all those planet busting happened in anime, it still makes it a much more likely assumption than vaporizing a celestial body, that never happened in the franchise. The flash of light we see for which Piccolo averted his eyes is most likely a product of a huge explosion. The rubble of the moon could be very small in size and blown away by the time Piccolo opened his eyes again. It might increase the yield but the calc is still lowballed.
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- #183
Scattering the moon like that takes more power than vaporising it. Also, the blast may have been small, but the aftereffect encompassed it, as I said before.
Piccolo destroying the moon was literally the second feat of its kind in Dragon Ball, other feats come significantly later. So it's a moot point, especially since both Roshi and Piccolo's feats were completely different from the others.
Vaporisation produces light produce light, and, in the manga, the Earth's destruction leaves no visible debris. Also, here's an interview from Akira Toriyama that's apparently from the Dragon Ball Dictionary (Daizenshuu 7 specifically) where he says the anime is an extension of the manga with different scenes, though he's mainly talking about filler. Source for the translations below.
It's not lowballed, just wrong in general because the debris already started falling before he launched the attack and were on the ground afterwards. We have no concrete timeframe.
Piccolo destroying the moon was literally the second feat of its kind in Dragon Ball, other feats come significantly later. So it's a moot point, especially since both Roshi and Piccolo's feats were completely different from the others.
Vaporisation produces light produce light, and, in the manga, the Earth's destruction leaves no visible debris. Also, here's an interview from Akira Toriyama that's apparently from the Dragon Ball Dictionary (Daizenshuu 7 specifically) where he says the anime is an extension of the manga with different scenes, though he's mainly talking about filler. Source for the translations below.
- 13: For example, drawing an image of a movement in a manga is relatively simple, but to animate this image, you had to decompose the movement and draw all the intermediary movements. That demands a colossal amount of work. (Ok, the example of Kame-sennin might not be the most appropriate...)
- 14: Of course, those who have read Dragon Ball have noticed that certain stories which are found in the anime didn't exist in the manga. Oolong: What's this? I never saw that in the manga...
- END: As one adventure in the manga corresponds to about 10 minutes of animation, and since one episode comprises on average 30 minutes, the entire series of Dragon Ball would have passed by very quickly. The team of animators therefore had to insert some original stories. I admire what they have done, that's a hell of a job!
- Toriyama: Dragon Ball, it's the anime and the manga.
It's not lowballed, just wrong in general because the debris already started falling before he launched the attack and were on the ground afterwards. We have no concrete timeframe.
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So what is the summary of what's happening here now?
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"Also, the blast may have been small, but the aftereffect encompassed it, as I said before."
How did the small beam encompass a moon? It's far logical to believe that it's just a glow that happens just before a celestial body goes kaboom.
"in the manga, the Earth's destruction leaves no visible debris."
That argument just proves my point further because the Earth was shown to get blown up in the manga and Akira Toriyama still chose not to draw any debris in the further panels. It would be the same for the moon. Expecting the artist to take every little scientific scenario into consideration is nitpicky.
How did the small beam encompass a moon? It's far logical to believe that it's just a glow that happens just before a celestial body goes kaboom.
"in the manga, the Earth's destruction leaves no visible debris."
That argument just proves my point further because the Earth was shown to get blown up in the manga and Akira Toriyama still chose not to draw any debris in the further panels. It would be the same for the moon. Expecting the artist to take every little scientific scenario into consideration is nitpicky.
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- #187
Simple, it hit the moon and vaporized it as an after effect, we don't need to be spoon fed in this shounen series because the creators themselves probably don't care. It's not "far more logical", you're suggesting a blast happened that we didn't see. When the moon is encompassed in light, it's still intact until the next panel.
The Earth is encompassed by a massive explosion, we see parts of the planet getting smaller and smaller (an effect similar to when characters reduce people to ashes) and the blast breaks up into smaller parts and scatters. There's no indication that it was scattered. I'm not expecting them to take science into account, if there were debris the artist probably would've drawn them.
Edit: Higher quality scans.
The Earth is encompassed by a massive explosion, we see parts of the planet getting smaller and smaller (an effect similar to when characters reduce people to ashes) and the blast breaks up into smaller parts and scatters. There's no indication that it was scattered. I'm not expecting them to take science into account, if there were debris the artist probably would've drawn them.
Edit: Higher quality scans.
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" It's not "far more logical", you're suggesting a blast happened that we didn't see."
We saw a big flash of light accompanied by the MASSIVE use of sound effects across two panels. It's undoubtedly representing a big explosion. I have never read about something producing so much light as a result of just vaporization. And again, the beam was not big enough to vaporize the whole moon, at best it would have made a small hole through it.
"When the moon is encompassed in light, it's still intact until the next panel."
You're supposed to read from right to left tho. The moon is intact when Piccolo first sees it, he fired his beam later.
"The Earth is encompassed by a massive explosion, we see parts of the planet getting smaller and smaller (an effect similar to when characters reduce people to ashes) and the blast breaks up into smaller parts and scatters."
Eh??? We clearly see a big flash of light that happens at the time of explosion. Also the MASSIVE sound effects across the panel also clearly represent a big explosion. And then we see the small parts of the planet being scattered away.
We saw a big flash of light accompanied by the MASSIVE use of sound effects across two panels. It's undoubtedly representing a big explosion. I have never read about something producing so much light as a result of just vaporization. And again, the beam was not big enough to vaporize the whole moon, at best it would have made a small hole through it.
"When the moon is encompassed in light, it's still intact until the next panel."
You're supposed to read from right to left tho. The moon is intact when Piccolo first sees it, he fired his beam later.
"The Earth is encompassed by a massive explosion, we see parts of the planet getting smaller and smaller (an effect similar to when characters reduce people to ashes) and the blast breaks up into smaller parts and scatters."
Eh??? We clearly see a big flash of light that happens at the time of explosion. Also the MASSIVE sound effects across the panel also clearly represent a big explosion. And then we see the small parts of the planet being scattered away.
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- #189
I didn't say it wasn't an explosion. I should've been more specific here. I meant we don't see a blast that scatters the moon across space. Basically, my entire point is that the explosion vaporized the moon.
I know. If you look at the moon there, the light is already eminating from it, which is what I was getting at.
I'm unsure what you're even getting at by this point. I didn't say it wasn't an explosion. These "small parts of the planet" look exactly like Buu's explosion.
If you respond, I might be a few hours.
I know. If you look at the moon there, the light is already eminating from it, which is what I was getting at.
I'm unsure what you're even getting at by this point. I didn't say it wasn't an explosion. These "small parts of the planet" look exactly like Buu's explosion.
If you respond, I might be a few hours.
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I agree with AKM Sama 100%; it requires far more assumptions and double standards to assume he just vaporizes the planet despite what typically happens all throughout the franchise when it comes to celestial object busting feats.
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GBE isn't really something that's typically dispersed through sheer heat, there has got to be some kind of explosion or shock wave in order to do that.
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- #193
It does not. You're the one assuming that the entire moon was scattered across space at far higher speeds than the calc (which is wrong regardless of the timeframe) originally has, something that's not actually supported by the manga, or the original moon feat from Dragon Ball.
Why do you always say what "typically happens in Dragon Ball"? That only happened once in the Dragon Ball manga, and it was when Frieza detonated Namek's core.
How am I using double standards? You and AKM are trying to push something with no proof.
Why do you always say what "typically happens in Dragon Ball"? That only happened once in the Dragon Ball manga, and it was when Frieza detonated Namek's core.
How am I using double standards? You and AKM are trying to push something with no proof.
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Who are the ones who agree?
Edit: After having read through the thread i'm also leaning towards the downgrade btw, the calc never felt right to me in the first place because of that weird timeframe and the assumption that it was sent flying when the moon just kinda disappears
Edit: After having read through the thread i'm also leaning towards the downgrade btw, the calc never felt right to me in the first place because of that weird timeframe and the assumption that it was sent flying when the moon just kinda disappears
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- #198
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