-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Piccolo Moon Feat Downgrade
- Thread starter ByAsura
- Start date
- Status
- 14,575
- 5,876
Predictable.
- 1,127
- 369
what's your suggestion?
Don't use multipliers for speed after they reach FTL,unless they show actual feats.Actual feats should be prioritized,multipliers may easily inflate the results.The difference between 0.25 and 1485 is almost 6000.This is unreasonable and the only way I can describe it is "WANK",if you think that jumping from 0.25 to 1485 from a single feat is enough to justify speed tiers for characters you are wrong.
You get a speed feat for DBZ,you upscale it via multipliers and get a certain result,than that result becomes their base Speed,and then you use multipliers again to upscale that already upscaled speed that became their base,and then you do it again,you stack mltipliers many times to get such ridiculous results,of course its inflated.
Just create a Staff Only thread for Speed Multipliers and discuss it there,I don't think everyone here agrees with this ridiculous 6000x leap from a Rel feat.
Predictable
The fact that he wrote it already tells that he himself questioned these numbers and knows they are wrong.No one would've called it wank if it was right and easily acceptable.
Don't use multipliers for speed after they reach FTL,unless they show actual feats.Actual feats should be prioritized,multipliers may easily inflate the results.The difference between 0.25 and 1485 is almost 6000.This is unreasonable and the only way I can describe it is "WANK",if you think that jumping from 0.25 to 1485 from a single feat is enough to justify speed tiers for characters you are wrong.
You get a speed feat for DBZ,you upscale it via multipliers and get a certain result,than that result becomes their base Speed,and then you use multipliers again to upscale that already upscaled speed that became their base,and then you do it again,you stack mltipliers many times to get such ridiculous results,of course its inflated.
Just create a Staff Only thread for Speed Multipliers and discuss it there,I don't think everyone here agrees with this ridiculous 6000x leap from a Rel feat.
Predictable
The fact that he wrote it already tells that he himself questioned these numbers and knows they are wrong.No one would've called it wank if it was right and easily acceptable.
- 22,343
- 18,529
- Thread starter
- #125
Not using multipliers after they reach FTL is blatant double standards.
"Upscale." I've been seriously downscaling DB, actually. If I wanted to upscale as much as possible, I'd put numbers in places where they actually don't belong. For example, I'd say that each increase makes them 1.1 times stronger, then we'd have Android Saga MFTL+ characters.
>"This is unreasonable and the only way I can describe it is "WANK", if you think that jumping from 0.25 to 1485 from a single feat is enough to justify speed tiers for characters you are wrong."
I'm sorry, but I'm everyone is really tired of this kind of attitude. People just show up from other sites and declare themselves to be right and others wrong if they don't agree. Be more open to other opinions, this is fiction where everything can change at the drop of a hat.
>"Just create a Staff Only thread for Speed Multipliers and discuss it there, I don't think everyone here agrees with this ridiculous 6000x leap from a Rel feat."
That's already been done, and you know what, almost everyone agreed with multipliers. And the same is happening here. From all indications, you're probably going to be one of the only people who don't.
All of the feats are incredibly vague in later Dragon Ball, so calcs is probably a no-go. Also, what about the 650 times FTL feat that Adem told you about?
>"The fact that he wrote it already tells that he himself questioned these numbers and knows they are wrong. No one would've called it wank if it was right and easily acceptable."
I said the Supernova feat could be used instead.
"Upscale." I've been seriously downscaling DB, actually. If I wanted to upscale as much as possible, I'd put numbers in places where they actually don't belong. For example, I'd say that each increase makes them 1.1 times stronger, then we'd have Android Saga MFTL+ characters.
>"This is unreasonable and the only way I can describe it is "WANK", if you think that jumping from 0.25 to 1485 from a single feat is enough to justify speed tiers for characters you are wrong."
I'm sorry, but I'm everyone is really tired of this kind of attitude. People just show up from other sites and declare themselves to be right and others wrong if they don't agree. Be more open to other opinions, this is fiction where everything can change at the drop of a hat.
>"Just create a Staff Only thread for Speed Multipliers and discuss it there, I don't think everyone here agrees with this ridiculous 6000x leap from a Rel feat."
That's already been done, and you know what, almost everyone agreed with multipliers. And the same is happening here. From all indications, you're probably going to be one of the only people who don't.
All of the feats are incredibly vague in later Dragon Ball, so calcs is probably a no-go. Also, what about the 650 times FTL feat that Adem told you about?
>"The fact that he wrote it already tells that he himself questioned these numbers and knows they are wrong. No one would've called it wank if it was right and easily acceptable."
I said the Supernova feat could be used instead.
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,195
- 5,321
That's doesn't make sense, there is no reason to suddenly stop using the Kaioken multipliers just because the characters have reach FTL speed, either they remain valid indefinitely or they are not valid from the beginning.Slacjow said:
- 1,127
- 369
I am not adressing most of this because from my experiecen this will lead to circular debating and we will never agree.I don't agree with these ridiculous ratings.
That's already been done, and you know what, almost everyone agreed with multipliers.
Everybody agreed with putting them at FTL+,not MFTL+,things could change this time.
All of the feats are incredibly vague in later Dragon Ball, so calcs is probably a no-go
How is that my problem?No feats no ratings,thats how it works,at least you need statements,but there are no statements either.
Also, what about the 650 times FTL feat that Adem told you about?
Would've been good if he posted this feat,so we both could look at it.
That's already been done, and you know what, almost everyone agreed with multipliers.
Everybody agreed with putting them at FTL+,not MFTL+,things could change this time.
All of the feats are incredibly vague in later Dragon Ball, so calcs is probably a no-go
How is that my problem?No feats no ratings,thats how it works,at least you need statements,but there are no statements either.
Also, what about the 650 times FTL feat that Adem told you about?
Would've been good if he posted this feat,so we both could look at it.
- 22,343
- 18,529
- Thread starter
- #128
Apples and oranges.
You're the one arguing this whole point, don't give me that evasive attitude. That's not always how it works. There are statements, from which we can garner that these characters are MFTL+.
I'll also see if I can dig it up.
You're the one arguing this whole point, don't give me that evasive attitude. That's not always how it works. There are statements, from which we can garner that these characters are MFTL+.
I'll also see if I can dig it up.
- 1,127
- 369
I wouldn't have argued with anyone here if no one replied directly to me.I just expressed my opinion on this.
I know that arguing here is pointless,fans want to see their characters with better ratings, and you are just delivering them what they want,I knew that I can't win this.
I know that arguing here is pointless,fans want to see their characters with better ratings, and you are just delivering them what they want,I knew that I can't win this.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,200
- 3,751
- 22,343
- 18,529
- Thread starter
- #131
@Slacjow What kind of argument is that? "If no one replied directly." You put your argument right in the middle of a revision thread, how could you expect this not to happen?
You've ignored all the counter arguments I had before. I disagreed with At least Massively FTL Android 17, and Massively FTL+ SS2 Gohan. I also vehemently said no to Planet level+ Ginyu.
You've ignored all the counter arguments I had before. I disagreed with At least Massively FTL Android 17, and Massively FTL+ SS2 Gohan. I also vehemently said no to Planet level+ Ginyu.
- 14,575
- 5,876
Can we move on and just ignore the obvious derailment? He's not here to help as you can see.
- 1,127
- 369
@ByAsura
Why are you replying to me?Our debate is already over,I said I don't want a circular debate thats why I didn't adresse your arguments,no need to tag me.I already told you we won't agree with each other.I watched DBZ,DBS you watched it too probably,we have different points of view.
@The Calaca
Deal with it,thats a consequence of every CRT,not everyone will blindely agree with you.Don't tag me or answer me from this point.Unless you want to derail this even more.
Why are you replying to me?Our debate is already over,I said I don't want a circular debate thats why I didn't adresse your arguments,no need to tag me.I already told you we won't agree with each other.I watched DBZ,DBS you watched it too probably,we have different points of view.
@The Calaca
Deal with it,thats a consequence of every CRT,not everyone will blindely agree with you.Don't tag me or answer me from this point.Unless you want to derail this even more.
- 14,575
- 5,876
Oh yeah, act like you have nothing to do with this.
Anyway, at the moment this is accepted. We need the update from more staff members now.
Anyway, at the moment this is accepted. We need the update from more staff members now.
- 2,743
- 850
So wait. Is super perfect cell and ssj2 gohan becoming mftl+ or no?
- 2,743
- 850
Not sure why unless we dont consider gokus base form then as being superior to a namek ssj but aight. I guess we can apply the upgrades/downgrades then.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,200
- 3,751
What about the Cell Kamehameha calc,does it get used?
- 6,594
- 1,708
Is it possible we can use Goku training in higher gravity as a speed multiplier? We know for certain that losing higher weight makes them immensely faster.
Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 10,200
- 3,751
Well if that's the case,Base Vegeta is MFTL+ as he was able to dodge Lasers at (I think) 1000 times earth's Gravity.
- 6,594
- 1,708
Would they even qualify for LS?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,195
- 5,321
Possible, but i'm not certain.Adem Warlock69 said:
Still if accepted then it would definitely back up At least Massively FTL speed for Cell Saga Top Tiers.
- 15,413
- 15,767
Didn't Super Vegeta's Final Flash have a Massively FTL calc as well?
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,195
- 5,321
That was only in the Anime.LordTracer said:
- 15,413
- 15,767
Oh. Nvm then.
- 167,692
- 76,282
You can ask some staff members interested in Dragon Ball if you wish.
- 20,064
- 10,848
The speed multipliers seems alright. Though I assume a lot of these are low balls in terms of how fast they are exactly?
- 31,383
- 34,174
First of all, I'm in disagreement with the reasoning at the top and bottom of the OP. First of all, calculated feats > Author statements. A power level of 10,000 being a requirement to destroy a planet is very contradictory since planets can vary in size, and planet busting feats are often way above planet level for obvious reasons. Also, Vegeta is clearly more durable that the potency of his Galick Gun; although did match Kaioken x3 Kamehamaha, Vegeta still tanked the Kaioken X4 Kamahameha and was just fine. Galick Gun being able to bust the planet scaring the cast has less to do with the idea of a 5-B character and more to do with Vegeta simply being strong enough to kill everyone with Goku being helpless to stop him. Moon busting feats can often range from 5-C, Low 5-B, 5-B, 5-A, and High 5-A. Similar to how Earth busting feats can vary from 5-B, 5-A, High 5-A and Low 4-C. Plus, Goku and Piccolo are obviously way stronger than they were in Dragon Ball saga.
As for the moon busting feat itself, nothing suggests that he simply vaporizes it; ki blasts typically nuke and blow stuff up rather than simply boil something till it because a gas planet. In fact, it's consistent with the "Shatter the moon" statements. Also, Kepekley did also calculate Master Roshi's outlier would get the same results; 5-B and Relativistic. I know his example was in outlier because it was back then and was via an attack that required every ounce of energy. But this is much later and more regular.
I'm neutral about perhaps some slight details being off, but I heavily disagree with just downgrading it all the way to 5-C. There's also the fact that Piccolo's Ki would also have to fight gravity to reach the moon among other things.
As for the moon busting feat itself, nothing suggests that he simply vaporizes it; ki blasts typically nuke and blow stuff up rather than simply boil something till it because a gas planet. In fact, it's consistent with the "Shatter the moon" statements. Also, Kepekley did also calculate Master Roshi's outlier would get the same results; 5-B and Relativistic. I know his example was in outlier because it was back then and was via an attack that required every ounce of energy. But this is much later and more regular.
I'm neutral about perhaps some slight details being off, but I heavily disagree with just downgrading it all the way to 5-C. There's also the fact that Piccolo's Ki would also have to fight gravity to reach the moon among other things.
- 22,343
- 18,529
- Thread starter
- #157
Calculated feats can surpass author statements, you're right about that, but when you actually do have calculations and evidence. The calc is wrong regardless of if it's AP or not. Vegeta survived the Galick Gun, he was still extremely weakened to the point where his most powerful attacks couldn't kill the Z-Fighters after he lost his Great Ape form.
Nothing also suggests it's kinetic energy. The simple fact is there's nowhere near enough evidence and it's completely contradictory to what we see on panel. There's no dust or fragments. We don't accept that statement, and may I remind you that when Roshi destroyed the moon there was nothing left.
That doesn't mean it's not 5-C, and why would gravity make the feat even higher? If you're talking about GBE, then that's already in the calc.
Nothing also suggests it's kinetic energy. The simple fact is there's nowhere near enough evidence and it's completely contradictory to what we see on panel. There's no dust or fragments. We don't accept that statement, and may I remind you that when Roshi destroyed the moon there was nothing left.
That doesn't mean it's not 5-C, and why would gravity make the feat even higher? If you're talking about GBE, then that's already in the calc.
- 31,383
- 34,174
Kepekley was probably better at explaining it, though he's probably not too interested in the discussion anymore based on how he is nowadays.
But anyway, it still generates and a blast that dwarfs the original celestial object, which would indicate that it was blown up. Also, there should be a puff of gas if it was vaporized Unless it was mass energy converted which would make the result well into High 5-A. And that moon shattering statement was unqualified for Teen Goku saga, but consistent with what happens here and how most Ki blasts do it.
But anyway, it still generates and a blast that dwarfs the original celestial object, which would indicate that it was blown up. Also, there should be a puff of gas if it was vaporized
- 31,383
- 34,174
The light indicates it's about to explode, it's not like it was melting and then became gas like the OP appears to be assuming.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
