Piccolo Moon Feat Downgrade

[UrsaBanks]

No need to get irritated, I am just restating wat others who think you're wrong said. Your previous idea only conviently fits. An explosion, which is more likely given what happens in Dragonzball, fots just as conveniently if not moreso because it's standard. Irrelevant to how people have responded with the dishonest reframing of that argument, using precedent over another convenient interpretation isn't irrational, and no one wa saying things always explode 11110% but that they usually do so to the point that it's almost a rule. To suggest it's all of a sudden vaporization (as you did before but don't now apparently) just because it can fit is not very good reasonin. Why don't you try making calcs with the input of the people who think it's possibke then? Wouldn't that seem fair?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not irritated. I'll try a calc from the explosion size, but there's no atmosphere or gravity in space (here's what happens to nukes/blastwaves in space), so I don't know what to use.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Then ask those guys on the supporting side what to do in their PMs or discord or whatever you use? I guess you could assume the moon is around the explosion, so that it comes from somewhere inside the moon? Or if not that, then you can use the face of the explosion thing AKM was talking abut

Edit: Sorry, it was Medues

 

[ByAsura]

I don't have either of those or anything like that for this wiki. I'll just ask for a calc. The radius alone somewhat reached the moon from Earth, so we know the radius.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Try a few different calcs based on how the explosion could happen and see if any fit I guess? You probs need help and I Suck at math so sorry.

 

[KLOL506]

I think Assalt's formula could be used where he calcs the energy to destroy the Sun from the Earth but here we can assume the distance to be half that of the actual distance between the Earth and the moon and swap the sun's GBE with the moon's.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That formula is for omnidirectional explosions that destroy multiple celestial objects all at once, and the calculation would be high up into 5-A. We can't use that here. Anyway, I still prefer to either stick to the current calc or use the Small Planet level+ one from NarutoForums, but I'm too tied up to debate more elaborately ATM.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Why use those two? Explain when u can

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think Assalt's formula could be used where he calcs the energy to destroy the Sun from the Earth but here we can assume the distance to be half that of the actual distance between the Earth and the moon and swap the sun's GBE with the moon's.

This formula doesn't work here

 

[ByAsura]

@Medeus I've already explained the timeframe is flawed. Those two can't be used.

 

[UrsaBanks]

You guys should try to explain things better instead of saying that you already explained.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There was no calculated timeframe, DarkAnine simply used the Potential energy formula. It more so suggests he launched in object with more force than the moon's mass combined with the distance from the Earth to the Moon. It's not even a "Time frame, though it is an iffy method. Still, the moon generated a giant light and sound wave that make the moon look like a spec by comparison. Which still should be no less than Low 5-B.

Anyway, someone might want to message someone like SomebodyData as he's also a Dragon Ball expert.

 

[ByAsura]

@Ursa I don't need to explain, it's literally in the original post and has been reiterated throughout this thread. Addressing it again without any actual arguments to respond to is just going backwards.

@Medeus I'll take a look at the projectile motion calc, but the Narutoformus one is a no-go.

 

[ByAsura]

I've checked and they both use the timeframe of that rock. Projectile motion is no-go as well. I'll ask for a calc.

Edit: I've asked. Let's put this on hold until there's a calc.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Very helpful response to me there Asura, if you didn't want to try to do better clarifying yourself to people who clearly don't understand you, you could have just not responded to me. Wow.

 

[ByAsura]

Again, it's in the original post, which the people I was talking about had seemingly already read.

You made an argument, of course I was going to respond.

 

[UrsaBanks]

I asked you to explain yourself better so people could be more likely to see your side, and the only response you gave me was "no, I already did". It's obvious that what you said isn't convincing enough for some, and many others might only agree with you because you're staff here and you're apparently picked for "high reasoning ability" or something.


[Source, a former staff member.] (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/B...19?direction=prev&oldid=1351883&useskin=oasis)

 

[ByAsura]

Medeus didn't say that. Here's what he said/why you're making this argument.

Anyway, I still prefer to either stick to the current calc or use the Small Planet level+ one from NarutoForums, but I'm too tied up to debate more elaborately ATM.

And I told you it saves time just to read the original because restarting this is backtracking.

Nobody said it wasn't convincing, and I did argue for it, hence why I also told you to read some of the comments.

I couldn't care less about what Xcano's opinions were about this site a few years ago.

 

[TataHakai]

I asked you to explain yourself better so people could be more likely to see your side, and the only response you gave me was "no, I already did". It's obvious that what you said isn't convincing enough for some, and many others might only agree with you because you're staff here and you're apparently picked for "high reasoning ability" or something.

[Source, a former staff member.] (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/B...19?direction=prev&oldid=1351883&useskin=oasis)

This isn't relevant to the post at all, please stop the pointless derailing

If you want to know why ByAsura said what he did then please do take your time to read the 300+ comments that were there before you even came onto this thread

 

[Leon_Help4]

Disagree with OP due to lack of proper evidence

 

[ByAsura]

And the others do have evidence?

 

[UrsaBanks]

I was asking Asura to live up to the role he was picked for an explain better to people like Leon there ^^^^. If he thinks that there's not a proper conclusion, then perhaps you need a better or different approach instead of rudely tellin people to reread. Is this really how things go here? Bruh, I'm askin you to elaborate further for those who are unconvinced, and that's wheneve you get the chance at your own pace. So if your busy, take your time. There's no stress here. If you're going to be here and debate, then debate. If me asking for an explanation is derailing, I don't necessarily trust your judgment. It sounds like you just don't want dissent, which isn't a very good look.

Oh, and I read the entire thread. I still disagree, and I think maybe there's miscommunication or interpretation still about between the sides that needs discussion to be erased. It's like you think this is a wasre of time.

 

[UrsaBanks]

I think so, ueah. Though you disregarded York vaporize claim now, you still are claiming that you can't tell what the method of destruction is when we have many reasons to go for explosion as one of them, all valif.

Evety single version of this scene has an exploding moon; Ki blasts usually blow stuf up, vaporization of the moon would probably leave behind some traces of it just as breaking it apart would leave debris. And argumunts against explosion ask for absurd lengths (by lazy Toriyama standards—) and kinda weirdchamp requirements that look too deep into a scene from a Manga that's basically as smart and complex in plot and literary valu as a horse, and then hand wave other flaws with "Toriyama isn't thinking about that." Or somethin adjacent

 

[ByAsura]

I did explain the explosion part to you already, and you didn't respond.

I thought you were saying Medeus didn't understand. What he actually did was try to argue around using the timeframe. Also, Leon didn't give a reason with evidence, he essentially said "I disagree because I disagree." But fine, here's the summary:

The calc is based on the distance at which a rock fell. But the actual height of the fall was incorrect (see the calc in the OP), and it was already on the ground before Piccolo landed, which is the last time we saw it. So basically, the timeframe and height are wrong.

Master Roshi's blast did the exact same thing to the moon. And in OG Dragon Ball, there's only been a few instances where a planet was fragmented.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Not a summary of your points, a further elaboration. I read the OP, i'm asking for you to go further than that and explain by Medusa is wrong from as many angles as you can. Otherwise you just seem to be leaving it hanging and that seems like you don't care enough. Which then beg the wuestion of why you even bothered.

Also, that's not what Leon said. That's dishonest as ****.

 

[ByAsura]

I don't need to because Medeus didn't argue about the timeframe, he tried to bypass it entirely with a different method—the projectile motion method—but I explained that it still used the same timeframe. That's what I was addressing.

There was no calculated timeframe, DarkAnine simply used the Potential energy formula. It more so suggests he launched in object with more force than the moon's mass combined with the distance from the Earth to the Moon. It's not even a "Time frame, though it is an iffy method.

I said with evidence and essentially. It's not dishonest, you just didn't get the context.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Based on a rough calculation, blowing up the moon with enough power to generate a moon to earth blast radius using the PE formula actually gets are result around the same as the current one divided by 6. 10. 7.34767309 × 10^22 kg * 384,400,000 m * 1.62 m/s^2 = 4.5756018e+31 Joules or 10.9359506883 Zetatons. Doesn't sound too bad.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Oh, also, to bring back what was discussed months ago in the thread apartmentlu. The fact that they assumed the bare minimum energy requirements to launch the pieces to earth in place of what we saw is actually not that bad, given the end result is the moons essential obliteration.

Simplest interpretation in line with how blasts in DB usually work, and even blasts explode on impact so vaporization is very rare; Piccolo fires a blast at the moon. The moon glows, which might be shorthand for the energy flowing through it and beginning to blow it up, and then The ecplosion happens off screen, Piccolo winses at the light or maybe even the shockwave— the latter is possible because his cloak is affected by wind and the air is distorting on earth enough for a large sound to be heard. That also means ecolosion is big af. And after wards, we don't see any fragments whatsoever. Which means they either are so small they can't be seen, or they were launched so far so fast that they aren't within that line of sight. The alternative interpretation is that they were vaporized, but I don't know if vaporization creates the same kind of explosion that would be seen in this scenario, and even then its not normally how Ki blasts hit shit.

None of what I said was assumption, right? If anything extra was there it was extrapolation or analyzing what happened, which is jus as fine

 

[UrsaBanks]

I wasn't paying 110% attention, I was busy and couldn't tell if u were talking to me or not. Sorry about that Asura. But please don't reframe people's words into that, because that's not just dishonest, but it IS disrespectful. And if that was what Medusa was trying to do, that's not good either.

But Medeus seems to have a calc. Is it reasonable? Maybe he should put it on a formal blog and have calc members not familiar with the sitch to unbiasedly review it.

 

[ByAsura]

@Medeus That's fine and consistent. I'll make the scaling chain.

@Ursa Ok, I understand.

That wasn't the calc, at all. It was based on the energy to launch the moon away a certain distance by using pixel-scaling. The minimum to actually blow up the moon is Moon level.

Ki Blasts envelop something and vaporise with the explosion or blast. That's consistent in DB, but this whole thing isn't now irrelevant, because Medeus has a calc.

 

[UrsaBanks]

Ok cool! Sorry for any stress you might have incurred

 

[ByAsura]

Here's the scaling change. Piccolo with his weights on has a power level of 329 in this story, and a PL of 408 against Raditz, so the difference is fairly massive. Medeus' calc is also 1/5.43528420109 of baseline Planet level.

Piccolo: Small Planet level (Casually vaporized the moon with one blast while weakened by his weighted armour), much higher with the Special Beam Cannon

Goku: Small Planet level (Superior to Piccolo, who destroyed the moo while restricted by his weights)

Chiaotzu: Small Planet level (Far superior to Piccolo and Goku)

Yajirobe: Small Planet level (Trained with the other Z fighters and has a power level higher than that of Piccolo at the time when he destroyed the moon), higher with his katana (Sliced Oozaru Vegeta's tail off)

Sorbet: Unknow. Possibly Small Planet level (Shouldn't be that much weaker than the average Frieza Soldier, who are similar in strength to Raditz)

I think Raditz has some evidence for being 2x Goku and Piccolo, as he's blocked their combined assault with one hand each, obliterated Piccolo's arm, implied their combined power was pathetic, and has power level many times higher than their own. I'm not going to push my luck on this, though, and Planet level Krillin can't exist so I'd like some input here.

Raditz: Small Planet level (Easily defeated both Goku and Piccolo, who resorted to using the Special Beam Cannon in order to defeat him. Blasted off Piccolo's arm and broke Goku's ribs)

Saibame: Small Planet level (Each Saibaman is said to be equal to Raditz)

Appule: Small Planet level (Stronger than Raditz)

Jaco: Small Planet level (KO'ed a Frieza Soldier), higher with his spaceship

Bardock: Small Planet level (One of the strongest low-class warriors of his time, and should thus be considerably stronger than Raditz)

Yamcha: Small Planet level (Superior to Raditz and bested a Saibame in combat with relative ease)

Paragus: Small Planet level (Even when old, weak and frail, his power level was much greater than Raditz)

Krillin represents the baseline character for Small Planet level+, if not Planet level. He fired a single blast, it split into six and obliterated 4 Saibame, meaning he's 4-6 times stronger than a Saibamen.

Krilli: Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (One-shot four Saibame, and his Kienzan would've cut Nappa in half had it landed)

Tien Shinha: Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (Superior to Krilli. Easily defeated a Saibame)

Nappa: At least Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (Fought all the Z fighters simultaneously and singlehandedly defeated them with minimal effort, who were by that point superior to Raditz. Knocked down Piccolo with one elbow strike and dismembered Tien Shinha's arm with a single punch. After calming down and focusing his energy, he gave Goku an even fight before he used the Kaioken, with Vegeta stating he could have won if he kept his focus)

Goku: At least Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (Easily humiliated Nappa before he calmed down), up to Planet level with Kaioken (Overpowered Vegeta with Kaio-ken x3, and then matched his Galick Gun with a Kamehameha, overwhelming him when he went Kaio-ken x4)

Guldo: At least Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (Stronger than Nappa)

King Vegeta: At least Small Planet level+, likely Planet level (Was the strongest Saiyan at the time besides Prince Vegeta, which means he was superior to Bardock and Nappa)

In this case, Vegeta is more than twice as strong as potentially above baseline Planet level opponent.

Vegeta: Planet level (Stronger than Nappa and superior to Goku with Kaio-ken x2. Stated that he was going to turn the Earth to ashes and matched Goku's Kamehameha until he used Kaio-ken x4), higher as an Oozaru (Even when weakened, he was able to easily overwhelm Goku)

Cui: Planet level (As strong as Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Dodoria: Planet level (Stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta)

Zarbo: Planet level (Stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Dodoria; after transforming, he easily beat early Namek Saga Vegeta, who earlier easily beat Dodoria and Cui)

Shisami: Planet level (Stated to rival Dodoria and Zarbo at their peaks)

Tagoma: Planet level (Noted by Sorbet to be comparable to both Zarbo and Dodoria at their peaks)

Vegeta (Namek Saga): Planet level (Easily defeated Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbo, and killed monster Zarbon after his second Zenkai)

Recoome: Planet level (Significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Burter: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Jeice: Planet level (Comparable to Recoome, who is significantly stronger than Namek Saga Vegeta)

Captain Ginyu: Planet level (Superior to Vegeta, Dodoria, Zarbo, and the rest of the Ginyu Force by a very significant margin)

Goku (Namek Saga): Planet level (Easily defeated Recoome, Burter, and Jeice), Higher with Kaio-ken (Surpassed Ginyu in power, leading to him stealing his body. Claimed this power was nothing compared to what he could achieve in short bursts)

 

[AKM sama]

Thanks for all the help ByAsura, it is very appreciated. But first Medeus needs to make a calc blog and get it accepted so that it can be linked to the respective profile(s).

 

[Leon_Help4]

The downgrade still feels iffy.

 

[ByAsura]

@Leon It's less iffy than assuming the moon was tossed across space, which also has an incorrect timeframe. We know for a fact that the blast created a massive shockwave and destroyed the moon. It's also more consistent with Vegeta's statement in the Saiyan Saga.

@AKM Ok.

 

[UrsaBanks]

No more downgrade Leon.

 

[Aernasilver]

>Krillin represents the baseline character for Small Planet level+, if not Planet level. He fired a single blast, it split into six and obliterated 4 Saibamen, meaning he's 4-6 times stronger than a Saibamen.

How does oneshotting 4 Saibamen mean he is 4-6 times stronger?

 

[ByAsura]

He split one blast into 6 indiviual pieces, 4 of which obliterated each Saibamen they hit.

 

[Aernasilver]

Which will make him stronger than whatever the Saibamen are at. Just because he oneshot 4 of them doesn't mean he is 4x stronger.

 

[ByAsura]

4 of them with 1/6th single attack. He launched an energy beam, and it broke up, it wasn't multiple attacks at once.