Perpetua and the Monitors Brothers Downgrade

[Elizio33]

Hello everyone! I have made this thread because over time, i came to realise that the Multiverse+ ratings on the profiles of Anti-Monitor, The Monitor and The World Forge are incoherent in comrarison to what they have displayed in the comics.

First, let's talk about the Monitors Brothers, most of people including myself thought the Monitors Brothers were Multiversal+ but actually, they aren't on that level. They are universal+ whether you agree or not it is true. (though i may be wrong lol) Their Multiversal feats happened because of some circumstances. (Full power within the Sixth Dimension, Mobius absorbing the energies of his Antimatter Universe and later absorbed the life energy of all the heroes and so on) They have been injured by regular heroes like Superman a few times although it never lasted for long. Even a surprise attack from Supergirl almost destroyed the Anti-Monitor. This was possible because Supergirl damaged his armor and if his armor is damaged, his energies may leak out. Let's look at the 2-A justifications they have on their profiles.

Anti-Monitor

(Released an antimatter wave that struck all worlds in all times, reducing infinite universes to just five)

The antimatter wave was relatively slow and destroyed one universe at a time. It's not like if the antimatter wave would have destroyed infinite universes at the same time.

The World Forger

(Should be comparable to the Monitor and Anti-Monitor. He contains the energy of the Dark Multiverse, but lacks the power to shape it)

Just because he contains the energies of his realm, the World Forge, dosen't means he is Multiversal. One being can tap into the power of a universe without being necessary universal. He hammered infinite universes in the forge but i'm pretty sure that he created one universe at a time since every strikes from his hammer spawn a universe. He created Hypertime which governs infinite timelines but he has probably created it within the Sixth Dimension.

The Monitor

(Stalemated the Anti-Monitor in a clash that rendered both unconscious. Energy from infinite positive matter universes flows through him to give him power, but he lacks the power to shape it)

Again, just because he contains the energies of infinite positive matter universes dosen't means that he is Multiversal.

Verdict for the Monitors Brothers

I would say that ''At least 2-C'' should be good for them as they are superior to Pre-Crisis Darkseid and Superman and Superboy Prime.

Perpetua

Now let's talk about Perpetua. Currentley, she isn't at full power as her power has been diminished.



Scott Snyder explains that Perpetua has had a final battle (off panel) with the Justice League and the power that she has during that time has been reduced. The Crisis worlds on which the Batman Who Laughs provided to her only gave her enough power to finish her job, destroy the rest of the Multiverse, but it didn't restore the power she had during the time she fought the Justice League powered by the energy of Dr Manhattan.

Most of people though she is universal+ because of this scan. Yes, she can destroy one universe at a time. Yet, she could rival the power of the Darkest Knight who possesses the energy of every Crisis in history and can create the ''Last 52'' Multiverse. I think ''At least 2-C, likely higher when weakened'' should be fine.

 

[Mil_the_cat]

I agree with the world forger downgrade, but I am neutral about the monitor brothers

Talking about Perpetua: She is Inconsistent, a day she kill universes, in another martian manhunter is fight with her in the same level

I think 2-B is the more correct to him

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with the world forger downgrade, but I am neutral about the monitor brothers

Talking about Perpetua: She is Inconsistent, a day she kill universes, in another martian manhunter is fight with her in the same level

I think 2-B is the more correct to him

She didn't even fight with Martian Manhunter she just punched him. Plus, she let MM mentaly connect with the people of Earth-0 because she knew that they would end up chosing her due to their loses of faith.

 

[Mil_the_cat]

She didn't fight on par with Martian Manhunter she just punched him. Plus, she let MM mentaly connect with the people of Earth-0 because she knew that they would end up chosing her due to their loses of faith.

The Martian hunter sees her like a statue, restrains her with telekinesis and resists a direct punch from her. I really exaggerated saying he fights with her at the same level, but a 4-B does all these things with a 1-C/2-A is crazy

 

[Elizio33]

The Martian hunter sees her like a statue, restrains her with telekinesis and resists a direct punch from her. I really exaggerated saying he fights with her at the same level, but a 4-B does all these things with a 1-C/2-A is crazy

Can you show me the scan of MM restaining Perpetua with telekinesis please? I don't remember this.

 

[Mil_the_cat]

Can you show me the scan of MM restaining Perpetua with telekinesis please? I don't remember this.

I went to see and actually it don't happening, who cage her is Kendra with the totality, sorry for the mistake

 

[Elizio33]

I went to see and actually it don't happening, who cage her is Kendra with the totality, sorry for the mistake

No need to apologize

 

[Elizio33]

@Antvasima @Matthew_Schroeder @Eficiente what do you think?

 

[Eficiente]

I didn't get notified, that glitch happened again.

I made a thread like this before and it was closed due to somebody else saying that they would make a better version later, so idk if we should go over this now.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll tag some DC Experts for you. @Matthew_Schroeder @Zensum @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @KingEzran @Firestorm808 @CrimsonStarFallen

 

[Firestorm808]

At the moment, we are working on revising our DC cosmology. However, we could look into the context of the COIE for now.

 

[Elizio33]

At the moment, we are working on revising our DC cosmology. However, we could look into the context of the COIE for now.

Oh okay, i didn't know about that. Most of the ratings of DC Comics god tier profiles on the wiki are a mess (Not every profile). Sorry for saying that but most of their current tier are incoherent in comparison to what they have shown in the comics.

 

[Daddybrawl]

You should probably give this some Tags, because it currently has none right now, so people looking for this type of content won’t be able to find it that way.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't understand what a lot of people take issue with regarding DC Cosmology?

Second: Yeah Perpetua is weakened. It seems weird that she can't destroy the multiverse in one go but in the same series written by Scott Snyder Mxyzptlk can affect the entire multiverse just fine and he's explictly weaker than the monitors.

Third: The Anti-Monitor's Crisis feats are blatantly 2-A, not sure why you want to downgrade.

Fourth: Perpetua was last seen fighting the Batman Who Laughs who just got upgraded heavily by absorbing Dr. Manhattan level powers + Crisis Energy. And he was going to destroy the entire multiverse and remake it in his image. So I'm not sure "Oh, Perpetua is weakened, so she's only Low 2-C" holds water even in the context of this series alone.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't understand what a lot of people take issue with regarding DC Cosmology?

Second: Yeah Perpetua is weakened. It seems weird that she can't destroy the multiverse in one go but in the same series written by Scott Snyder Mxyzptlk can affect the entire multiverse just fine and he's explictly weaker than the monitors.

Third: The Anti-Monitor's Crisis feats are blatantly 2-A, not sure why you want to downgrade.

Fourth: Perpetua was last seen fighting the Batman Who Laughs who just got upgraded heavily by absorbing Dr. Manhattan level powers + Crisis Energy. And he was going to destroy the entire multiverse and remake it in his image. So I'm not sure "Oh, Perpetua is weakened, so she's only Low 2-C" holds water even in the context of this series alone.

I will reread Crisis on Infinite Earths to put me in context but i'm pretty sure that his feats aren't 2-A.

Perpetua while weakened can fight on par with the Darkest Knight who has Dr Manhattan's power and Crisis Energy and create the Last 52 Multiverse, but needs to recharge her energies after destroying one universe. Unless we put this on Galactus-like stamina or a better option, its weird that Perpetua who can destroy one universe at a time can fight equally with BWL who can destroy a Multiverse and create another one... especially since Perpetua is weakened.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Perpetua while weakened can fight on par with the Darkest Knight who has Dr Manhattan's power and Crisis Energy and create the Last 52 Multiverse, but needs to recharge her energies after destroying one universe. Unless we put this on Galactus-like stamina or a better option, its weird that Perpetua who can destroy one universe at a time can fight equally with BWL who can destroy a Multiverse and create another one... especially since Perpetua is weakened.

Perpetua only being universal is a low-end. The "Darknest Knight" literally created "The Last 52" by opening his hand extremely causally, and he's already done stuff like destroy the Speed Force and **** up Hypertime, and in the latest issue they said their fight is going to destroy the entire multiverse.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’ve got a lot to say but for now I’ll just say I’m agreeing with Matt.

 

[Elizio33]

Perpetua only being universal is a low-end. The "Darknest Knight" literally created "The Last 52" by opening his hand extremely causally, and he's already done stuff like destroy the Speed Force and **** up Hypertime, and in the latest issue they said their fight is going to destroy the entire multiverse.

I know that Perpetua also affected Hypertime. (Hypertime is within her grasp) What i'm saying is she can fight equally with him while her power has been reduced and can destroy one universe at a time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Don't try to reconcile both things

 

[Elizio33]

Don't try to reconcile both things

What do you suggest?

 

[LuciferDC099]

▪ Anti-Monitor's Antimatter Wave clearly was Low 2-C, because it destroyed one universe at a time.

▪ World Forger's hammer can create one universe at time.

▪ It wasn't stated that the in-multiverse Monitors are more powerful than Mr. Mxyzptlk.

▪ Weakened Perpetua was stronger than the Ultra-Monitor, but she was able to destroy one universe at a time.

▪ I think "Remaking multiverse" statement isn't enough for 2-A rating. Perpetua stated she'll reshape the Multiverse in her own image, but she destroyed one universe at a time to reshape the Multiverse.

I'm not sure about Perpetua, but in-multiverse Monitors aren't 2-A.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

It is probable that the level of the monitors varies due to its constant reform.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Destroying infinite universes overtime is still 2-A btw, that's been agreed to be the case for a long time now. Doesn't matter if the wave did it one at a time, that's still 2-A.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

▪ Anti-Monitor's Antimatter Wave clearly was Low 2-C, because it destroyed one universe at a time.

And yet it is stated to have affected the entire universe, he grew in power over time, and in the end he was going to destroy the entire multiverse in one shot.

▪ World Forger's hammer can create one universe at time.

It was going to destroy the current multiverse and create a new one with the hammer strike. He also created Hypertime with it

▪ It wasn't stated that the in-multiverse Monitors are more powerful than Mr. Mxyzptlk.

Literally was dozens of times. Anytime they talk about the 6th Dimension in relation to the 5th.

▪ Weakened Perpetua was stronger than the Ultra-Monitor, but she was able to destroy one universe at a time.

Ignore every better feat she has okay.

▪ I think "Remaking multiverse" statement isn't enough for 2-A rating. Perpetua stated she'll reshape the Multiverse in her own image, but she destroyed one universe at a time to reshape the Multiverse.

The full extent of the multiverse Perpetua seeks to destroy and remake is 1-A tho and that's not what I"m talking about.

I'm not sure about Perpetua, but in-multiverse Monitors aren't 2-A.

Anti-Monitor has blatantly 2-A feats.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I'll agree

 

[Mil_the_cat]

World forger was trying to recreate the Multiverse in a single strike

And Mr Mxyzptlk says the 6 th dimension is the place where the most powerful entities live , so World Forger> Sr. Mxyzptlk

 

[Elizio33]

And yet it is stated to have affected the entire universe, he grew in power over time, and in the end he was going to destroy the entire multiverse in one shot.


It was going to destroy the current multiverse and create a new one with the hammer strike. He also created Hypertime with it


Literally was dozens of times. Anytime they talk about the 6th Dimension in relation to the 5th.


Ignore every better feat she has okay.


The full extent of the multiverse Perpetua seeks to destroy and remake is 1-A tho and that's not what I"m talking about.


Anti-Monitor has blatantly 2-A feats.

First, the Anti-Monitor became stronger overtime because he added the power of every dead universe he destroyed to his own. When that power runs out, he absorbed the energy of his Antimatter Universe to travel to the Dawn of Time. The Anti-Monitor then absorbed the life energy of the every heroes to replace the power he lost when he breaks through the Dawn of Time.

The World Forger created his Multiverse in the Sixth Dimension. His power diminishes when he is on the lower planes of existence.

World forger was trying to recreate the Multiverse in a single strike

And Mr Mxyzptlk says the 6 th dimension is the place where the most powerful entities live , so World Forger> Sr. Mxyzptlk

True but his power diminishes on a lower plane of existence.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

maybe add variable in profiles?

 

[Elizio33]

maybe add variable in profiles?

I had that idea long ago but it was more like a variable tier from 2-C to 2-A. Especially for Mar Novu and Mobius as their power depends on the balance that there is between antimatter and positive matter. If the balance tips in favor of antimatter, the Anti-Monitor will be more powerful and vice versa. That's why Mar Novu became weaker during COIE as Mobius destroyed positive matter universes.

 

[Eficiente]

How powerful was the Anti-Monitor after the Crisis on Infinite Earths but before all his relatively modern appearances? I got this notion of him being notably weak (higher than 4-B, but lesser than Low 2-C at times), and if true, that would support the idea of a Variable tier.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

In the sinister war

one-Shot multiple Green lanterns

fought and dominated the guardians of the universe and after mobius tanked a 3-C explosion and barely survived

in the saga of the darkest night and the brightest day

a massively drained AM by Nekron was attacked by multiple colored Corps.

And survived a Deadman attack with a white ring

there is more but that is the most remarkable

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

How about 4-B to 3-C in its weakest versions, up to 2-A in its strongest states?

 

[Eficiente]

I saw 3-C at his minimum coming but didn't know he could be 4-B. Well, I just wanted to make that point, so I'll now let other more knowledgeable users set the details on that, though I think it's good.

 

[Elizio33]

The Monitors Brothers are only "4-B" when they are considerably weakened if not to say depowered. Mobius couldn't defend himself when John Stewart threatened him after being separated from his brothers while on normal circumstances, Mobius would have killed him with one blast. Sinestro Corps War Anti-Monitor was weakened because he didn't fully reformed. I think Varies from 2-C to 2-A should be fine as their base power levels are superior to Superboy Prime.

 

[Mil_the_cat]

I think we could create a 3-A variable for World Forger in our reality and 2-B in the 6 th dimension. But we need to remember witch the monitor brothers apparently died when perpetua launched a planet in direction of them

 

[Elizio33]

I

I think 3-A variable for World Forger in our reality and 2-B in the 6 th dimension. But we need to remember witch the monitor brothers apparently die when perpetuas launch a planet in direction of them

They were threatened when Perpetua throw a planet at them because they were extremely weakened. Alpheus was weakened to the point of he was barely able to raise his arm and Mobius couldn't defend himself against one Green Lantern. Remember that the being who launched the planet is Perpetua who is considerably stronger than the Monitors Brothers.

 

[Mil_the_cat]

I

They were threatened when Perpetua throw a planet at them because they were extremely weakened. Alpheus was weakened to the point of he was barely able to raise his arm and Mobius couldn't defend himself against one Green Lantern. Remember the being who launched the planet is Perpetua who is considerably stronger than the Monitors Brothers.

Good point. World forger survived suficient time to convert the energy of the impact in force to create a portal, so a extremely weakened world forger can survives temporally to Perpetua lauching a planet on him. And perpetua launched the planet at the earth-44 to the phromethean galaxy on earth 0 in seconds, so the impact (Speed x Mass) was insane. I will try to calcule this after

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

3-A or 3-C or 4-B is all hilarious downplay.

My point with Perpetua is that I think the division doesn't really matter with the current fight going on. They say it's happening on every level of existence simultaneously and they show people reacting to it in fear on the Sphere of the Gods. So it is Tier 1.

 

[Elizio33]

3-A or 3-C or 4-B is all hilarious downplay.

My point with Perpetua is that I think the division doesn't really matter with the current fight going on. They say it's happening on every level of existence simultaneously and they show people reacting to it in fear on the Sphere of the Gods. So it is Tier 1.

I agree with Matthew, 3-C, 3-A and 4-B is downplay as they only shown to have these levels when they are sufficiently weakened. Their base level without any amps should be 2-C as they are more powerful than Superboy Prime who can do this.

 

[Elizio33]

Bump