Overvoid Downgrade

[Xearsay]

Again, he offered a possible explanation, something that I said is probably not High 1A just due to what we know of Overvoid.

Except those reasons you brought up against what Ultima said such as the Monitors being created as a defense mechanism to protect it is false. That's mentioned or implied in the story.

Overvoid viewing a 1A cosmology as fiction isn't High 1A. It's merely a layer above 1A, even then it's doubtful that it even views them as fiction due to the fact that it actually needed to make the monitors to protect itself from the multiverse and whatnot.

Of course. No one said this though so I don't know what you're arguing against.

 

[Tarang123]

Of course. No one said this though so I don't know what you're arguing against.

????? Wtf got Overvoid High 1A, then? Merely transcending the 1A cosmology isn't High 1A, nowhere close to it, tbf.

Except those reasons you brought up against what Ultima said such as the Monitors being created as a defense mechanism to protect it is false. That's mentioned or implied in the story.

first of all, it says the exact same thing that the Overvoid felt the need to protect itself from the multiverse, so the transcendence it has over the multiverse is either not very big at all or nonexistent.

Even then, the main premise of the downgrade is that no evidence for Overvoid gives a High 1A rating. In fact, even Ultima has shown that it's extremely questionable if Overvoid would even apply for such a rating anymore.

But, I think we can all agree that Overvoid is, at best, Tier 10C (paper level fodder)

Of course, I don't want to derail, so let's just stay with this argument. Please construct an actual argument against the downgrade if you disagree with it.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Evidence that goes far beyond all concepts and definitions of 1-A multiverse is insufficient as evidence of high 1-A.

Suppose there's one universe and there's a super-dimensional outside of it.

If the super-dimension is said to go beyond all the concepts and definitions of the universe, would it be 1-A?

High 1-A of the Overvoid has no strong evidence.

 

[Tarang123]

Evidence that goes far beyond all concepts and definitions of 1-A multiverse is insufficient as evidence of high 1-A.

Suppose there's only one universe and there's a super-dimensional universe out there.

If the super-dimension is said to go beyond all the concepts and definitions of the universe, would it be 1-A?

High 1-A of the Overvoid has no strong evidence.

I believe there were other things to do with it, but yes it's not High 1A.

 

[Teezar]

wtf does that even mean. I'm just saying that cause the multiverse is a bit of an oversimplification and there's more multiverses in DC, if I'm not mistaken. That's all I was saying. Not sure what you mean by "why not", but whatever.

The way you've been constantly saying this makes me see "why not" as "whatnot"

I only said this, don't get angry cause of simple texts in platforms.

????? Wtf got Overvoid High 1A, then? Merely transcending the 1A cosmology isn't High 1A, nowhere close to it, tbf.

It's what granted many verses high 1A then like CM/umineko (And I saw your post on the thread you made saying seeing 1A+ hierarchy as dream/fiction isn't high 1A before Planck corrected you. but how do you come up with that it's just high into 1A+ I could have replied you then except the thread got locked).

????? Wtf got Overvoid High 1A, then? Merely transcending the 1A cosmology isn't High 1A, nowhere close to it, tbf.



first of all, it says the exact same thing that the Overvoid felt the need to protect itself from the multiverse, so the transcendence it has over the multiverse is either not very big at all or nonexistent.

Even then, the main premise of the downgrade is that no evidence for Overvoid gives a High 1A rating. In fact, even Ultima has shown that it's extremely questionable if Overvoid would even apply for such a rating anymore.

But, I think we can all agree that Overvoid is, at best, Tier 10C (paper level fodder)

Of course, I don't want to derail, so let's just stay with this argument. Please construct an actual argument against the downgrade if you disagree with it.

Morrison: Yeah, it's a bit of that. It's also the idea that they're like angels as well. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

This is from Grant Morrison's IGN page on the Overvoid.

 

[PrinceofPein]

CM/umineko

noo, especially not CM

 

[Teezar]

The thread on CM was already done not that it changed anything just made them baseline so i heard even in teir 0. The umineko downgrade thread. The staffs on it kept it on hold also since then no news.

I just want tarang to explain to me why viewing 1A+ hierarchy as dream/fiction ain't high 1A clearly not here but in PMs to avoid derailment.

 

[PrinceofPein]

The thread on CM was already done not that it changed anything just made them baseline so i heard even in teir 0. The umineko downgrade thread. The staffs on it kept it on hold also since then no news.

yeah it did not change anything, while Umineko it is to remove the useless tier 0 rating it just wrong

I just want tarang to explain to me why viewing 1A+ hierarchy as dream/fiction ain't high 1A clearly not here but in PMs to avoid derailment.

cause the difference between to intermediate 1A level is the difference between a baseline 1A and a 3D being so its like way deeper than R/F

 

[Urshani]

umineko got downgraded?

 

[PrinceofPein]

umineko got downgraded?

not yet

 

[Teezar]

yeah it did not change anything, while Umineko it is to remove the useless tier 0 rating it just wrong

From what I remember it was a general revision not only the OG tops of fiction characters. But umineko is almost like an unbeatable franchise.

cause the difference between to intermediate 1A level is the difference between a baseline 1A and a 3D being so its like way deeper than R/F

Can you elaborate more. And I was asking why seeing 1A+ hierarchy as fiction/dream with no top or bottom as just higher into 1A+ from his perspective and not high 1A.

umineko got downgraded?

Not yet and won't be happening anytime soon.

not yet

Yeah.

Seems we've derail alot so back to purpose of this thread.

 

[Urshani]

not yet

oh ok

 

[PrinceofPein]

From what I remember it was a general revision not only the OG tops of fiction characters. But umineko is almost like an unbeatable franchise.

well Umineko has a solid 1A feat and possibly High 1A so i dont really see any downgrade aside the tier 0, and some characters losing their 1A+

Can you elaborate more. And I was asking why seeing 1A+ hierarchy as fiction/dream with no top or bottom as just higher into 1A+ from his perspective and not high 1A.

Viewing it as fiction while not existing outside of it completely is just another level, existing outside of it while viewing it as fiction is enough for H1A.
and from the reason presensted by the OP, he does not exist outside of it he is just the background so i dont think that will be enough for High 1A, it will be another layer

 

[Teezar]

Viewing it as fiction while not existing outside of it completely is just another level, existing outside of it while viewing it as fiction is enough for H1A.
and from the reason presensted by the OP, he does not exist outside of it he is just the background so i dont think that will be enough for High 1A, it will be another layer

Him seeing them as dreams/fiction does already like how we look at fictional characters on a book.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Him seeing them as dreams/fiction does already like how we look at fictional characters on a book.

well according to this wiki a character viewing a 1B as fiction is just another layer of 1B, not to talk of transcedence between 1As which will be something greater. now to now transcend the entire 1A hierachy u will need something deeper and greater than viewing 1As has fiction

 

[Teezar]

Except your legitly seeing an infinite hierarchy of 1A+ as fiction. And seeing a 1B character as fiction can mean many things without further context.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Except your legitly seeing an infinite hierarchy of 1A+ as fiction. And seeing a 1B character as fiction can mean many things without further context.

sorry what 1A+ hierachy? cause i cannot remember anything of such in DC

 

[Teezar]

sorry what 1A+ hierachy? cause i cannot remember anything of such in DC

Unwritten not DC.

The unwritten isn't canonically part of DC as it was rejected by DC. Just a writer's own story. Mike carey.

 

[Urshani]

to beat Umineko, you just throw Mathiverse at them

 

[Teezar]

Mathiverse

Isn't it just a location?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Unwritten not DC.

The unwritten isn't canonically part of DC as it was rejected by DC. Just a writer's own story. Mike carey.

it is not part of the canon DC and not regarded as one here, so No the overvoid is not above that and he will not get any rating from that

 

[Urshani]

Isn't it just a location?

then give the abilities and tier of mathiverse to someone else.
on topic; i guess with this downgrade MegaTen would beat it

 

[Planck69]

well according to this wiki a character viewing a 1B as fiction is just another layer of 1B, not to talk of transcedence between 1As which will be something greater. now to now transcend the entire 1A hierachy u will need something deeper and greater than viewing 1As has fiction

To keep it simple;

Viewing a 1-B plane of existence as fictional is higher into 1-B. Viewing that very hierarchy as fictional and any levels within it as equally insignificant to you regardless of placement, is 1-A.

That applies to 1-A as well.

 

[PrinceofPein]

To keep it simple;

Viewing a 1-B plane of existence as fictional is higher into 1-B. Viewing that very hierarchy as fictional and any levels within it as equally insignificant to you regardless of placement, is 1-A.

That applies to 1-A as well.

i know this but i cannot remember any 1A hierarchy in canon DC, so overvoid cannot be H1A

 

[Planck69]

i know this but i cannot remember any 1A hierarchy in canon DC, so overvoid cannot be H1A

Currently, there's a 1-A hierarchy of like 8 layers so the Overvoid, viewing the hierarchy in its entirety as fiction and being 0 regardless of how much larger it it gets, would be High 1-A.

Of course, that hierarchy being 1-A is BS and Overvoid should just be baseline 1-A but that revision hasn't happened yet so this thread feels weird to me.

 

[Firestorm808]

IIRC, from Grant Morrison's Cosmology, the higher dimensions of space and time end at the Monitor Sphere. Reaching the Overvoid, there is no higher dimension of space and time.

Would this match the requirement of "transcend dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level"?

 

[QuasiYuri]

IIRC, from Grant Morrison's Cosmology, the higher dimensions of space and time end at the Monitor Sphere. Reaching the Overvoid, there is no higher dimension of space and time.

Would this match the requirement of "transcend dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level"?

It wouldn't, but there's better possible 1-As proof.

 

[Teezar]

it is not part of the canon DC and not regarded as one here, so No the overvoid is not above that and he will not get any rating from that

Did you read what I typed above well or you just skimmed through it?
I said it's uncanon to DC as DC rejected mike carey addition to it so it's not canonically part of DC and any with DC has nothing to do with unwritten even the scaling.

Unwritten is just a writers book like dc/vertigo fables. Both are not Canonically part of DC despite published by it. The only reason I mentioned it is cause of Tarang claim in his last thread saying viewing 1A+ hierarchy as fiction/dream isn't High 1A just another layer in 1A+.

 

[Planck69]

IIRC, from Grant Morrison's Cosmology, the higher dimensions of space and time end at the Monitor Sphere. Reaching the Overvoid, there is no higher dimension of space and time.

Would this match the requirement of "transcend dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level, normally being portrayed as entirely external abstractions that lie outside of the applications of spatiotemporal dimensionality as a constant defined by physics on any level"?

It's good support for what current evidence exists at least, though not evidence in and of itself.

 

[Darksmash]

To keep it simple;

Viewing a 1-B plane of existence as fictional is higher into 1-B. Viewing that very hierarchy as fictional and any levels within it as equally insignificant to you regardless of placement, is 1-A.

That applies to 1-A as well.

What's the difference though? The distinction of "hierarchy" is pretty arbitrary here tbh. Someone from a higher layer, especially one that utilises R>F analogies, will obviously see any lower Reality>Fiction layers as equally insignificant. And a "hierarchy" is just a collection of multiple layers. So they would still see the entire hierarchy below them as fictional.

 

[Planck69]

I'm literally just paraphrasing the tiering system. Any issues you have with how we treat that aren't really within the scope of the thread and topic at hand.

 

[Darksmash]

I didn't really see this in any official page related to the tiering system. These aren't the definitions. These are standards. And unless I missed some important page they are pretty much just decided by consensus and very much subject to be questioned in a thread

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, but my point is this isn't the thread to discuss standards. If you can change them then be my guest.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I agree with Darkmash. It would not be 1-A to view hierarchies as fiction without strong evidence that they exist outside beyond the concept of hierarchy no matter how high the R>F hierarchy rises.

 

[Darksmash]

Yeah, but my point is this isn't the thread to discuss standards. If you can change them then be my guest.

Change what though? Standards aren't set in stone. Its literally discussions on threads like these that affect them. Unless there is an official page that lists all the standards the wiki uses they can be questioned

 

[Planck69]

Change what though? Standards aren't set in stone. Its literally discussions on threads like these that affect them. Unless there is an official page that lists all the standards the wiki uses they can be questioned

I feel like there's a misunderstanding here. I'm referring to how something can be 1-A without an infinite hierarchy, which is on the Tiering System FAQ page.

 

[Darksmash]

I feel like there's a misunderstanding here. I'm referring to how something can be 1-A without an infinite hierarchy, which is on the Tiering System FAQ page.

Yes, but the faq doesn't state that viewing a hierarchy as fiction gives you a higher tier, especially if said hierarchy is made up of R>F layers in the first place

 

[Tarang123]

I only said this, don't get angry cause of simple texts in platforms.

Apologies, I didn't mean to sound angry. I was just a bit confused on what you meant.

It's what granted many verses high 1A then like CM/umineko (And I saw your post on the thread you made saying seeing 1A+ hierarchy as dream/fiction isn't high 1A before Planck corrected you. but how do you come up with that it's just high into 1A+ I could have replied you then except the thread got locked).

Again, merely viewing a 1A hierarchy as fiction isn't High 1A. There are other factors that need to come in play.

Morrison: Yeah, it's a bit of that. It's also the idea that they're like angels as well. For me, the cool, essential idea of all stories being real creates this great cosmology to play with. It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

This is from Grant Morrison's IGN page on the Overvoid.

Again, my point had to do with the fact that Overvoid had to "protect" itself from contact with "story". It would go against High 1A to be completely disconnected from any extension of a 1A hierarchy (which technically isn't even High 1A, tbf) if one can still be affected by said hierarchy.

 

[Tarang123]

To keep it simple;

Viewing a 1-B plane of existence as fictional is higher into 1-B. Viewing that very hierarchy as fictional and any levels within it as equally insignificant to you regardless of placement, is 1-A.

That applies to 1-A as well.

Even going by that, the multiverse being insignificant for Overvoid would be a massive jump in logic and possibly even wank to some extent. Again, Overvoid shouldn't be High 1A at all. Maybe 1A, but High 1A should have never been there, anyway.

 

[Tarang123]

Currently, there's a 1-A hierarchy of like 8 layers so the Overvoid, viewing the hierarchy in its entirety as fiction and being 0 regardless of how much larger it it gets, would be High 1-A.

Of course, that hierarchy being 1-A is BS and Overvoid should just be baseline 1-A but that revision hasn't happened yet so this thread feels weird to me.

Yeah, but it barely views them as fiction. Still capable of being affected by said hierarchy removes any kind of chance of a High 1A transcendence (if that's even a thing). Basically, there's no business for Overvoid being anything other than 1A.