Overvoid Downgrade

[DaReaperMan]

.

Speaking of check this thing out for your inevitable next CRT.

I recommend doing one God-Tier scaling group at a time to be more organized on this however.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, to elaborate more on what I meant, I actually agree with the Overvoid viewing the hierarchy of layers of existence that makes up creation as fiction, which would mean trivialising it completely as opposed to just being above some topmost layer.

That being said, I don't agree with that hierarchy being 1-A to begin with.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That being said, I don't agree with that hierarchy being 1-A to begin with.

Mmmmmmm... can't wait for that...

 

[Tarang123]

Speaking of check this thing out for your inevitable next CRT.

I recommend doing one God-Tier scaling group at a time to be more organized on this however.

He’d also get downgraded as well

 

[DaReaperMan]

He’d also get downgraded as well

I meant for the ladder tiering... he needs his own thread

 

[Teezar]

Anyway, to elaborate more on what I meant, I actually agree with the Overvoid viewing the hierarchy of layers of existence that makes up creation as fiction, which would mean trivialising it completely as opposed to just being above some topmost layer.

That being said, I don't agree with that hierarchy being 1-A to begin with.

Everything is in POM Blog.

Dc has many metaphysical realms
The sphere of gods is one of them and a platonic archetypal world so its 1A. But its seen as an outlier for the new gods, tho 1A darkseid coming up this infinite frontier.
The blog has better explanation of everything of DC cosmology and the metaphysical realms and a good explanation about the sphere of gods.
Based on the MOTM the limbo transcends the sphere of gods.
The monitor sphere is home of NIL and Nil is an archetypal world and more explanations of NiL is given in the blog that it's better for you to read then me summarising it to you.
The entirety of the monitor sphere are just thoughts of the Overvoid.
Nil is a world inhabited by primal forms.
Then we have the source wall
The Source Wall surrounds the entire DC Multiverse, separating it from the Overvoid. It exists in all realms and transects all dimensions. Due to the inconsistent nature of comics, there have been a few times where passing through the Source Wall only on a universal level allows beings to travel between universes, either into the Bleed or into past versions of Creation.
from the blog but I didn't add the promethean galaxy cause I believe you read JL2018
Tier'

Characters cannot be called 1-A, or even Tier 1, for existing in, or affecting, the Promethean Galaxy/Final Barrier/Source Wall. It should be obvious why: this realm exists on every level of reality. A Tier 4 being that portals themselves to the outer edge of their reality to the Promethean Galaxy is still a Tier 4 being, and they are only experiencing the Promethean Galaxy on a lower-dimensional level.
POM already cleared that.

Then we have the six dimension that's beyond imagination and everything in the MOTM.
And highest plane of existence in current DC it can only be accessed by the monitor brothers and perpetua their mother whose of the hands race and the creator of the six dimension.
Mr mxyzptlk could only access it cause the source wall was broken open.
The Sphere of the Gods (itself, not necessarily all the realms in it) formed around the prior Creation made by Perpetua and Alpheus called it fiction. Everything you need to know is in POM blog and they are many things I skipped intentionally or you can read everything on the blog.
The Overvoid transends this creation and the greater omniverse as explained in grant Morrison IGN page the Overvoid sees the whole of DC as fiction/story.

I tried but the blog explained better.

Anyways DC is still ongoing and with current infinite frontier,we might get good new concepts like DC always does in every arc since crisis on infinite earths.

 

[Teezar]

Speaking of check this thing out for your inevitable next CRT.

I recommend doing one God-Tier scaling group at a time to be more organized on this however.

Yeah the writer and other dc writers exists in comic book limbo.

So under the Overvoid.

 

[Tarang123]

I guess, tho writer shouldn’t have any basis for tier 0 or High 1A

 

[DaReaperMan]

I guess, tho writer shouldn’t have any basis for tier 0 or High 1A

Oh yeah, no issues on that on my end, but he definitely needs his own thread because that is its own can of worms.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Might as well chime in, since I was one of the people who got the thing to High 1-A in the first place.

This is great and all, but how tf is this High 1A?

To explain the reasoning behind that, I'll have to quote a certain tidbit from the Tiering System page:

Characters who can affect and create/destroy states or realms which are completely transcendent over infinitely-layered Outerversal hierarchies and any extensions thereof, as well as the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place.

Alright, so, elaborating a bit on what exactly is meant by "framework" in there: It should go without saying that, as it stands, the Tiering System is pretty heavily grounded on set theory at the upper parts, and each level within 1-A in fact corresponds to some space whose size is denoted by an aleph number.

And set theory, like all of math, is built upon a basic set of axioms, or in clearer terms, basic propositions from which any theorem can be derived (For instance, the Axiom of Infinity, which is just the assertion that a set with infinitely-many elements exists), as well as a language formed by well-defined syntax and semantics, which allows objects like numbers to be defined. All of these things, when put together, are called a formal system, and in the case of set theory, their existence paves way for the "Universe of Sets," where all alephs exist in.

But there is a cut-off here, too. Like this page explains, there are certain numbers known as "Large Cardinals," which in simple terms are just quantities so big that they can't be constructed or defined in the usual formal system of set theory, and as such, if we want to treat them as actual objects, we have to define a more extensive system, which includes their existence as an axiom. Otherwise, the normal framework doesn't even know what they are, so to speak, and nor can it talk about whether they exist or not. And if it wasn't obvious by now, this is pretty much what High 1-A is.

So basically, as big as the difference between each level of 1-A is, all of them are still defined within the same system/framework, and abide by the same fundamental language. Hence, something that surpasses all definition and conceptualization would already be making the jump past all of them (Note that this is distinct from something like, say, a tesseract, which is just visually incomprehensible because our brains aren't built to visualize higher-dimensional objects, but has a nature that can still be defined and conceived of pretty easily), and this is basically what the current profile for the Monitor-Mind takes it to be.

Granted, such a thing would only be High 1-A if done in contrast with a 1-A cosmology, and otherwise, it'd just be 1-A, as seen with another example of the same concept being utilized in another verse.

Moreover the Overvoid is a bit of an oddball among characters that make use of this concept because, while its other analogues in DC's Cosmology (Like The Source) are described more traditionally, as beyond the very reach of all definitions and conceptions, it is not, and in fact a big part of the creation myth described in Final Crisis and Multiversity is that the Monitor-Mind is attempting to protect itself from the concepts and narratives brought into existence by the creation of the DC Universe, which can potentially infect and "damage" its Perfection, and Morrison reiterates that in an interview:

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.

So, not too sure if the argument for High 1-A would hold even under what I laid out above, but I do admit it's certainly still possible (At least under the current interpretation of the cosmology), given the Source Wall is also defined as the hard limit to all definition and thought in the Muliverse Map.

And I guess there's another reasoning for High 1-A in the Writer's profile, too, but I came to heavily dislike that one overtime, so.

 

[Darksmash]

How is thought equivalent to definitions in that context?

 

[Saiyan40009]

I suppose that at least the god levels will be 1A and the overminotr 1 possible high 1A to trace them

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Agree with this

 

[Tarang123]

Might as well chime in, since I was one of the people who got the thing to High 1-A in the first place.


To explain the reasoning behind that, I'll have to quote a certain tidbit from the Tiering System page:



Alright, so, elaborating a bit on what exactly is meant by "framework" in there: It should go without saying that, as it stands, the Tiering System is pretty heavily grounded on set theory at the upper parts, and each level within 1-A in fact corresponds to some space whose size is denoted by an aleph number.

And set theory, like all of math, is built upon a basic set of axioms, or in clearer terms, basic propositions from which any theorem can be derived (For instance, the Axiom of Infinity, which is just the assertion that a set with infinitely-many elements exists), as well as a language formed by well-defined syntax and semantics, which allows objects like numbers to be defined. All of these things, when put together, are called a formal system, and in the case of set theory, their existence paves way for the "Universe of Sets," where all alephs exist in.

But there is a cut-off here, too. Like this page explains, there are certain numbers known as "Large Cardinals," which in simple terms are just quantities so big that they can't be constructed or defined in the usual formal system of set theory, and as such, if we want to treat them as actual objects, we have to define a more extensive system, which includes their existence as an axiom. Otherwise, the normal framework doesn't even know what they are, so to speak, and nor can it talk about whether they exist or not. And if it wasn't obvious by now, this is pretty much what High 1-A is.

So basically, as big as the difference between each level of 1-A is, all of them are still defined within the same system/framework, and abide by the same fundamental language. Hence, something that surpasses all definition and conceptualization would already be making the jump past all of them (Note that this is distinct from something like, say, a tesseract, which is just visually incomprehensible because our brains aren't built to visualize higher-dimensional objects, but has a nature that can still be defined and conceived of pretty easily), and this is basically what the current profile for the Monitor-Mind takes it to be.

Granted, such a thing would only be High 1-A if done in contrast with a 1-A cosmology, and otherwise, it'd just be 1-A, as seen with another example of the same concept being utilized in another verse.

Moreover the Overvoid is a bit of an oddball among characters that make use of this concept because, while its other analogues in DC's Cosmology (Like The Source) are described more traditionally, as beyond the very reach of all definitions and conceptions, it is not, and in fact a big part of the creation myth described in Final Crisis and Multiversity is that the Monitor-Mind is attempting to protect itself from the concepts and narratives brought into existence by the creation of the DC Universe, which can potentially infect and "damage" its Perfection, and Morrison reiterates that in an interview:



So, not too sure if the argument for High 1-A would hold even under what I laid out above, but I do admit it's certainly still possible (At least under the current interpretation of the cosmology), given the Source Wall is also defined as the hard limit to all definition and thought in the Muliverse Map.

And I guess there's another reasoning for High 1-A in the Writer's profile, too, but I came to heavily dislike that one overtime, so.

I see… thing is, I don’t think that’s High 1A, at least, not very concretely

 

[Tarang123]

Tbh, I think it would be best for Overvoid to be just 1A

 

[Xearsay]

I don’t remember the original justification, however I do remember that the Overvoid was supposed to be beyond the 1-A Multiverse to a massive degree.

As stated by the writer Grant Morrison within the Overvoid everything is possible. And as stated by Lucifer, everything in it amounts to 0. Which should include even beings like the Presence and The Source who are already transcendent to the 1-A multiverse. Additionally, it's also the blank page with everything on it being ink.

Meaning theoretically since everything is possible inside of the Overvoid, the already 1-A multiverse, The Source, The Presence could possibly extend beyond what they already are and would still amount amount to nothing on the Void.

So it should look something like this. Notice how even though the building is not infinite, since everything is possible in the white space, it could theoretically keep going on forever and never transcend the groundwork(Overvoid) it's built on. I'm not sure if this was the exact reason but I'm pretty sure this is how it was looked at it.

 

[Abu2411]

Might as well chime in, since I was one of the people who got the thing to High 1-A in the first place.


To explain the reasoning behind that, I'll have to quote a certain tidbit from the Tiering System page:



Alright, so, elaborating a bit on what exactly is meant by "framework" in there: It should go without saying that, as it stands, the Tiering System is pretty heavily grounded on set theory at the upper parts, and each level within 1-A in fact corresponds to some space whose size is denoted by an aleph number.

And set theory, like all of math, is built upon a basic set of axioms, or in clearer terms, basic propositions from which any theorem can be derived (For instance, the Axiom of Infinity, which is just the assertion that a set with infinitely-many elements exists), as well as a language formed by well-defined syntax and semantics, which allows objects like numbers to be defined. All of these things, when put together, are called a formal system, and in the case of set theory, their existence paves way for the "Universe of Sets," where all alephs exist in.

But there is a cut-off here, too. Like this page explains, there are certain numbers known as "Large Cardinals," which in simple terms are just quantities so big that they can't be constructed or defined in the usual formal system of set theory, and as such, if we want to treat them as actual objects, we have to define a more extensive system, which includes their existence as an axiom. Otherwise, the normal framework doesn't even know what they are, so to speak, and nor can it talk about whether they exist or not. And if it wasn't obvious by now, this is pretty much what High 1-A is.

So basically, as big as the difference between each level of 1-A is, all of them are still defined within the same system/framework, and abide by the same fundamental language. Hence, something that surpasses all definition and conceptualization would already be making the jump past all of them (Note that this is distinct from something like, say, a tesseract, which is just visually incomprehensible because our brains aren't built to visualize higher-dimensional objects, but has a nature that can still be defined and conceived of pretty easily), and this is basically what the current profile for the Monitor-Mind takes it to be.

Granted, such a thing would only be High 1-A if done in contrast with a 1-A cosmology, and otherwise, it'd just be 1-A, as seen with another example of the same concept being utilized in another verse.

Moreover the Overvoid is a bit of an oddball among characters that make use of this concept because, while its other analogues in DC's Cosmology (Like The Source) are described more traditionally, as beyond the very reach of all definitions and conceptions, it is not, and in fact a big part of the creation myth described in Final Crisis and Multiversity is that the Monitor-Mind is attempting to protect itself from the concepts and narratives brought into existence by the creation of the DC Universe, which can potentially infect and "damage" its Perfection, and Morrison reiterates that in an interview:



So, not too sure if the argument for High 1-A would hold even under what I laid out above, but I do admit it's certainly still possible (At least under the current interpretation of the cosmology), given the Source Wall is also defined as the hard limit to all definition and thought in the Muliverse Map.

And I guess there's another reasoning for High 1-A in the Writer's profile, too, but I came to heavily dislike that one overtime, so.

I don't think I understand.

What I believe you're saying is that the Overmonitor is completely outside of the framework in which the rest of the DC Multiverse operates inside of. But I don't see how the DC Multiverse would be able to 'threaten' the Overvoid if that's the case? Does the Overmind really exist transcendent over the framework of the DC Multiverse when it can still be affected by it, even in a minuscule way?

Regardless, the DC hierarchy itself is getting downgraded to High 1-B at best. Is that correct?

 

[Planck69]

Regardless, the DC hierarchy itself is getting downgraded to High 1-B at best. Is that correct?

While it's not set in stone, the multiverse will likely go down to 1-B or so, making this baseline 1-A. Which is why I'm OK with it being beyond the multiverse's very hierarchy but still think it should just be 1-A.

 

[Tarang123]

I don’t remember the original justification, however I do remember that the Overvoid was supposed to be beyond the 1-A Multiverse to a massive degree. However I can give information regarding everything about the Overvoids scaling.

As stated by the writer Grant Morrison within the Overvoid everything is possible. And as stated by Lucifer, everything in it amounts to 0. Which should include even beings like the Presence and The Source who are already transcendent to the 1-A multiverse. However it's also the blank page with everything on being ink on the page.

Meaning theoretically since everything is possible inside of the Overvoid, the already 1-A multiverse, The Source, The Presence could extend beyond what they already are and would still amount to 0 to the Overvoid. Since the Overvoid is not merely a higher layer above them, it's the pure consciousness that underlies them.

So it should look something like this. Notice how even though the building is not infinite, since everything is possible in the white space, it could theoretically keep going on forever and never transcend the Overvoid. I'm not sure if this was the exact reason but I'm pretty sure this is how it was looked at it.

Problem is that it's never stated. It just takes no space in the Overvoid, which would be a simple transcendence at best.

 

[Teezar]

The Overvoid transends beings that transends a 1A multiverse plus they are infinite more. And past and other creations apart from presence creation in the Overvoid.
The monitor sphere is also just thoughts of the Overvoid but I believe ultima already clarified everything above.

 

[Tarang123]

The Overvoid transends beings that transends a 1A multiverse plus they are infinite more. And past and other creations apart from presence creation in the Overvoid.
The monitor sphere is also just thoughts of the Overvoid but I believe ultima already clarified everything above.

Which is great and all, but that's still not 1A. At best, it would be 1A+, but DC's so-called transcendences are fairly questionable when you have guys like Superman physically affecting 5D imps and whatnot.

 

[Teezar]

Which is great and all, but that's still not 1A

Excuse me.

Which is great and all, but that's still not 1A. At best, it would be 1A+, but DC's so-called transcendences are fairly questionable when you have guys like Superman physically affecting 5D imps and whatnot.

I don't know shit about 1A teiring like ultima or other knowledge members so I leave that.
If you read the book you will see superman was amped with 5D space energy when he harmed that 5D being. As he jumped from being 3D to 5D and it was a temporary amp.

And it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Xearsay]

Problem is that it's never stated. It just takes no space in the Overvoid, which would be a simple transcendence at best.

Well it’s a little more than that. Morrison stated that it’s like in Buddhism where there is a pure consciousness that underlies everything. That doesn’t really sound like a simple transcendence to me. It sounds like the Overvoid transcends and sets the literal foundation for the manifestation of everything. Which would include the potentially infinite 1-A multiverses within the Void and The Source which transcends them.

So while you are right that the Multiverse does take no space in the Void, that doesn’t really address the fact that the Multiverse could theoretically become more than what it is and still be transcended by the Overvoid. As stated by Morrison, in that white space/pristine consciousness everything is possible.

 

[Teezar]

From the looks of infinite frontier many ***** are gonna change as currently the multiverse has expanded to some sort of omniverse with multiverses spamming on a constant.
That's why it's stated the current multiverse is some sort of omniverse. But still in the greater omniverse.

The map of the multiverse might change also.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

It's hard to tackle such a large and complex verse such as DC, it's why it's so outdated. You change one thing, it becomes a domino effect that no one wants to partake in.

 

[Tarang123]

Well it’s a little more than that. Morrison stated that it’s like in Buddhism where there is a pure consciousness that underlies everything. So while you are right that the Multiverse does take no space in the Void, that doesn’t really address the fact that the Multiverse could theoretically become more than what it is and still be transcended by the Overvoid. As stated by Morrison, in that white space/pristine consciousness everything is possible.

That's great and all, but it's kinda stated that Overvoid has to make a conscious effort to protect itself from the shit in the multiverse and whatnot. Putting that as an inaccessible transcendence would be probably the dumbest upgrade ever, no offense of course. I just think that there's not enough for Overvoid to be High 1A. Definitely layers into 1A, but nothing High 1A.

(tho, I'm not against having an at least 1A, possibly High 1A key)

 

[Xearsay]

That's great and all, but it's kinda stated that Overvoid has to make a conscious effort to protect itself from the shit in the multiverse and whatnot. Putting that as an inaccessible transcendence would be probably the dumbest upgrade ever, no offense of course. I just think that there's not enough for Overvoid to be High 1A. Definitely layers into 1A, but nothing High 1A.

(tho, I'm not against having an at least 1A, possibly High 1A key)

Well that was from the Thought Robot spreading narratives upon the Overvoid. And the Thought Robot is literally an extension of the Overvoid so I don’t think that really counts. Honestly this all kind of sounds like a little misunderstanding.

 

[Tarang123]

Well that was from the Thought Robot spreading narratives upon the Overvoid. And the Thought Robot is literally an extension of the Overvoid so I don’t think that really counts. Honestly this all kind of sounds like a little misunderstanding.

The fact is that the multiverse is considered as a "scab" or imperfection on the Overvoid, which goes against the notion of a transcendence factor even remotely near High 1A.

 

[Xearsay]

The fact is that the multiverse is considered as a "scab" or imperfection on the Overvoid, which goes against the notion of a transcendence factor even remotely near High 1A.

I just checked and I can’t find where it’s called a scab. And while it is considered an “imperfection” that’s just vaguely referencing how it’s basically ink on the page. It’s not like that changes the fact that the Overvoid is still superior to what’s on it.

 

[Abu2411]

It is referring to this most likely.

This highlights the fact that the multiverse wasn't just an imperfection, but a wound.

 

[Tarang123]

It is referring to this most likely.

This highlights the fact that the multiverse wasn't just an imperfection, but a wound.

If the multiverse is referred to as a wound, then that's even more evidence against High 1A Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

It is referring to this most likely.

This highlights the fact that the multiverse wasn't just an imperfection, but a wound.

Ah I see. I don’t think it’s being literal though. How can the existence of something be a wound to nothingness? That doesn’t really make sense when taken literally. It’s clearly just a metaphor.

 

[Tarang123]

Ah I see. I don’t think it’s being literal though. How can the existence of something be a wound to nothingness? That doesn’t really make sense when taken literally. It’s clearly just a metaphor.

My point is that it's very clearly stated to being something significant on the Overvoid (albeit, only barely. It's even described as a mere dot on it, but that's not too relevant), which the scan clearly suggests. It's obviously not completely literal, but it's still evidence against High 1A Overvoid.

 

[Teezar]

Seeing a 1A multiverse as a dot ain't relevant?

 

[Teezar]

It is referring to this most likely.

This highlights the fact that the multiverse wasn't just an imperfection, but a wound.

This is clearly a metaphor besides grant explained everything about the Overvoid in his IGN page.

 

[Xearsay]

My point is that it's very clearly stated to being something significant on the Overvoid (albeit, only barely. It's even described as a mere dot on it, but that's not too relevant), which the scan clearly suggests. It's obviously not completely literal, but it's still evidence against High 1A Overvoid.

While I will agree that it's something significant. We do have to remember why it's treated in such a way. It's treated as significant for simply existing because nothing existed prior to it. It's not like it's significant due to it's scale relative to the Overvoid or anything. So I still don't really see how this denies the transcendence but w.e

 

[Tarang123]

While I will agree that it's something significant. We do have to remember why it's treated in such a way. It's treated as significant for simply existing because nothing existed prior to it. It's not like it's significant due to it's scale relative to the Overvoid or anything. So I still don't really see how this denies the transcendence but w.e

Again, this is because Overvoid had to make a conscious effort to manage the multiverse, which is where the monitors come from, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Teezar]

The entirety of the monitor sphere are just thoughts of the Overvoid.

 

[Xearsay]

Again, this is because Overvoid had to make a conscious effort to manage the multiverse, which is where the monitors come from, if I'm not mistaken.

How does that deny the nature of it's transcendence though? Are you trying to say that because the Overvoid interacted with the Multiverse and tried to contain it, that it cannot be transcendent over the Multiverse to such a high degree? That doesn't really correlate. The Overvoid making an effort to contain the Multiverse only really tells us that it cared about it's perfection not being tarnished. There is nothing more to it.

 

[Teezar]

Cause me I don't even understand his debate like how he brought earth 0 superman here in a debate about the Overvoid.