Overvoid Downgrade

[Tarang123]

POM explaination on the trinity:
Despite generally being associated with different parts of DC cosmology, these various entities are actually one entity when viewed in their transcendent whole as the Void beyond all Creations. One God, with each of the three being points of view or potentially emanations, all existing as completely transcendent to the Greater Omniverse.

God has appeared in various aspects to lower beings but is in truth an unbounded Void, infinite and eternal, where all things become one and, simultaneously, none. We saw above that all the Creations of the Greater Omniverse sum up to zero in comparison.

Another way some writers refer to the state of ultimate oneness and nothingness is Brahman/Sea of Brahma, the universal spirit, God's unconscious, etc. As described, they are the exact same thing as the previous three, just referred to in a different way.

Wait, how does this relate to the monitor sphere or limbo?

 

[Teezar]

Proof?

The Sphere of the Gods​

The Sphere of the Gods is the overarching realm containing the godly and magical realms of the DCU, and possesses an immaterial, metaphysical nature. It is home to the Archetypal Powers and Intelligences of the DCU (note here the blatant references to Plato and Plotinus). The realm is stated to be made of literal possibility, and formed as an encompassing sphere around Creation before Creation had even finished forming. It is deeply tied to, and possibly indistinguishable from, the ideas and beliefs of mortals.

The very first thing you should note here is from the Map itself. Refer back to Wonderworld, stated to orbit creation itself on the utmost limit to space and time. From that, it is quite clear that Morrison is taking his Platonic references seriously, as the Realm of Ideas is supposed to completely transcend the concepts of space and time by their very nature.

The Sphere's realms, inhabitants, and stories, from an in-universe point of view, are made of pure narrative/idea, with its inhabitants playing out predetermined roles[104]. Inhabitants in these realms, such as in Faerie, have to make their own "time" in order for events to happen, as the actual material time does not touch them, as shown in various subsections below. It is notable that both demons and angels are imprisoned and punished by subjecting them to time.

Beginning with the absolute basics: what is the Sphere of the Gods, literally? It is pure possibility, not part of the material world, contains Platonic, archetypal worlds populated by living ideas, and is "fiction" (narrative).

The sphere of gods already qualifies for a 1A realm but seen as outlier for new gods(tho no one has told me the reason since I entered this platform) waiting for 1A darkseid this infinite frontier

The comic book limbo is higher-D above the sphere of gods in the MOTM.

Comic Book Limbo​

Limbo, but more accurately defined in Animal Man as Comic Book Limbo, is the realm where the forgotten of the Orrery end up. It is not a permanent consignment - characters that were forgotten but are later reintroduced in stories leave Limbo and return to lower levels of reality. There are no stories in Limbo except for the Book of Infinite Pages, which contains every story of Creation. By definition, and it is explicitly stated to be so, this means that Limbo has no space and no time, much like the Sphere of the Gods. It goes one step further into nothingness, however, since the Sphere of the Gods is made of story, while Comic Book Limbo does not even have that.

Limbo exists separately from the Orrery, floating between it and the Thought Robot. It was stated that, when crashing out of the Orrery to end up in Limbo, the Ultima Thule was drifting into the Void.

The monitor sphere is higher-D than the comic book limbo.

The Monitor Sphere​

The Monitor Sphere is home to Nil, the world of the Monitor race. As the mystery of the Orrery and Thought Robot caused Monitor-Mind to invent narratives to go along with it, the Monitor Sphere and Nil took shape outside the Sphere of the Gods. Recall from the prior section how moving from the multiverse to Comic Book Limbo required passing through the Void. This is reflected in the statements that Nil is part of the Void and that Monitor nanotech arrives from the Void to attack Limbo[224]. As you will see in this section, the Monitor Sphere is, similar to Science Monitor Dax Novu, a part of the Overvoid given shape by hyper-stories.

The beings of this world are notable for being the only ones (that we know of) capable of bottling and consuming Bleed as a tangible substance[225]. This is extremely significant: we know that, from the perspective of lower mortal "germs", Bleed is the Bulk Space enclosing the worlds of the Orrery. We know also that Bleed is the substance of Life, from Zillo Valla, and Imagination, from Mxyzptlk. In metafictional terms, it is what gives life to the stories of the DCU. But the Monitors are capable of extracting it as a tangible substance, draining Creation dry. This interpretation is confirmed by Morrison himself: what Mandrakk is doing by extracting Bleed as a consumable is sucking the life out of the story. See the scans below:

Mandrakk, by sucking all of the Bleed extracted toward his sepulchre, sucked the life out of the story[226]
Draining the Bleed out drained the meaning and story from the DCU[227]
On to Nil itself. You may have noticed a pattern by now of elevating levels of existence corresponding to less and less "real-ness" as we would think of it in real life. Beings in the Orrery are made of matter and operate within physical space and time. Beings in the Sphere of the Gods are pure idea and operate within metaphysical story. Beings in Limbo lack even story. And Nil takes this pattern to the next level, as far as reasonably possible before achieving the pure absolute Nothingness/Oneness of the Overvoid.

The world of the Monitors is the Blank, the Nil, the Gone, the edge of everything where form and meaning surrender to the nothingness of the Overvoid. Its inhabitants have 5555 terms for "nothing", and presumably a similar number of types of nothing. See the scan[228] below:

Nil's nothingness
As a quick aside, Monitor tech operates in concept space and can be used to construct realities[229]. Note once again the adherence to Platonic, "form --> matter" cosmology.

Moving on to more concrete properties, we begin with Grant Morrison. According to him, Nil is an archetypal world. We could have gathered as much from the reference to Primal Forms (note for the umpteenth time in this article the on-the-nose reference to the World of Forms concept) in a Fundamental World, but it's always good to have direct confirmation. We then move on to the oft-misinterpreted lines regarding scale, space, and time being more profound in Nil. In the above scan, note that Nil is where "form and meaning surrender to the Overvoid". This is because the entirety of the Monitor Sphere/Nil are the thoughts of the Overvoid[230], making a narrative for itself based on the Orrery and the Thought Robot. Everything is more meaningful and profound in Nil because, unlike the lower realms, Superman is interfacing with the active mind of the Overvoid. For example, time, rather than being an abstract temporal dimension, is a clockwork pattern painted across the sky. And to further distinguish Nil from the Sphere of the Gods and the Orrery, Nil's "story" is a hyper story that self-assembles with the thoughts of the Overvoid.

Nil is an archetypal world[231]Captain Adam's epiphany on how to send the essence of Superman and Ultraman to Nil is that there are no dualities[232]The narrative of the Monitors is a hyper story, distinct from the stories of the Orrery[235]
Nil is a Fundamental world inhabited by Primal Forms"Time" in Nil refers to the clockwork pattern in the sky[233]Scale, space, time, everything is more meaningful and profound in Nil[234]
Finally, although the writing quality is subjective, the Unexpected series did not make Nil just a normal place people can travel to. It was accessed because a unique Nth Metal isotope resonated with Ultramenstruum to create a hole in reality, sending the team outside the multiverse[236].


It's all from prince of morning blog. All credits goes to him and whosoever was involved in making the blog with him.

 

[Teezar]

Wait, how does this relate to the monitor sphere or limbo?

I never said it relates to them. I just said it gives a little explanation about the Overvoid.

 

[Tarang123]

I never said it relates to them. I just said it gives a little explanation about the Overvoid.

Oh alr

 

[Darksmash]

About the "thoughts don't reach beyond the source wall" thing

I don't think I have seen enough evidence to assume this is referring to all possible ideal conceptualizations of hierarchies based on the system in the verse. This is more likely just referring to things that are made up of thoughts in the verse, like CAS himself. So yea I disagree with this reasoning even remotely being enough for a tier jump regardless of whether the lower cosmology is 1-B or 1-A.

Y?

Nothing, I forgot I had already agreed with the thread

 

[Planck69]

Pretty much all of that doesn't qualify for 1-A anymore. But that's something to be tackled later on.

 

[Teezar]

Considering the nature of the Overvoid in Final Crisis elaborated by Grant Morrison, I consider it to be at least 1-A.

For it to be High 1-A, we need to identify the "states or realms which are completely transcendent over infinitely-layered Outerversal hierarchies and any extensions thereof, as well as the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place" below it. We would need to find the justification of the 6th Dimension or Monitor Sphere that matches this requirement.

Prince of morning did cover them all.

 

[Teezar]

About the "thoughts don't reach beyond the source wall" thing

I don't think I have seen enough evidence to assume this is referring to all possible ideal conceptualizations of hierarchies based on the system in the verse. This is more likely just referring to things that are made up of thoughts in the verse, like CAS himself. So yea I disagree with this reasoning even remotely being enough for a tier jump regardless

The Source Wall surrounds the entire DC Multiverse, separating it from the Overvoid. It exists in all realms and transects all dimensions. Due to the inconsistent nature of comics, there have been a few times where passing through the Source Wall only on a universal level allows beings to travel between universes[259], either into the Bleed or into past versions of Creation.

The Source Wall is beyond any known measure of space and time and spans all dimensions (realms)[260]The realm containing the Promethean Galaxy is a place without measure, a dimension without name or number, beyond space and time[262]The realm of the Promethean Galaxy is an "un-place"[264]
The Source Wall transects all realities so that, assuming one can get past the Promethean Galaxy and Final Barrier, it will always be in front of you no matter what direction you go[261]The Source Wall exists in all parallel universes simultaneously[263]The Source Wall is extradimensional, beyond space and time, existed before time, and is both everywhere and nowhere[265]
'Tier'

Characters cannot be called 1-A, or even Tier 1, for existing in, or affecting, the Promethean Galaxy/Final Barrier/Source Wall. It should be obvious why: this realm exists on every level of reality. A Tier 4 being that portals themselves to the outer edge of their reality to the Promethean Galaxy is still a Tier 4 being, and they are only experiencing the Promethean Galaxy on a lower-dimensional level.

 

[Teezar]

Pretty much all of that doesn't qualify for 1-A anymore. But that's something to be tackled later on.

However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size.[3]

I remember it stated true platonic grants 1A also.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I remember it stated true platonic grants 1A also.

It doesn't anymore, and shouldn't have to begin with.

 

[Firestorm808]

Prince of morning did cover them all.

The issue of the blog is that it doesn't sort out each writer's definition of the limit of space/geometric dimensions and time/meta-time of which there are several.

 

[Planck69]

I remember it stated true platonic grants 1A also

That was the old Conceptual Manipulation page and tiering system. Nowadays, it doesn't grant anything beyond what's shown in the story.

 

[Teezar]

It doesn't anymore, and shouldn't have to begin with.

Ok

 

[Teezar]

The issue of the blog is that it doesn't sort out each writer's definition of the limit of space/geometric dimensions and time of which there are several.

But the 6th dimension explanation does seem accurate like how we all read it.

 

[Deagonx]

Copy-pasting from POM's blog is not an appropriate way to conduct a discussion.

 

[Teezar]

Theirs nothing wrong as it's also a factor in making them higher teir.

 

[Deagonx]

Theirs nothing wrong as it's also a factor in making them higher teir.

Okay, but at a minimum you should be giving an explanation as to why specifically you believe that evidence makes it 1-A in reference to the tiering system, rather than just copy-pasting giant sections of a blog and saying "This is the evidence for 1-A"

 

[Teezar]

Ok then thank you.

 

[Xearsay]

Pretty much all of that doesn't qualify for 1-A anymore. But that's something to be tackled later on.

Isn’t 1-A just viewing something high 1-B as fiction?

 

[Tarang123]

Isn’t 1-A just viewing something high 1-B as fiction?

No, there’s more to it

 

[Deagonx]

Isn’t 1-A just viewing something high 1-B as fiction?

1. No
2. Overvoid doesn't see the multiverse as fictional. Even beings from the Overvoid like Supercelestials do not perceive beings from the multiverse as fictional. There's no R>F layers between the top tiers of DC and the bottom tiers.

 

[Tarang123]

1. No
2. Overvoid doesn't see the multiverse as fictional. Even beings from the Overvoid like Supercelestials do not perceive beings from the multiverse as fictional. There's no R>F layers between the top tiers of DC and the bottom tiers.

I mean, Overvoid being the paper from which everything was drawn on would entail at least some level of transcendence, tho it’s definitely nothing high 1A

 

[Planck69]

Isn’t 1-A just viewing something high 1-B as fiction?

No, it requires a lot more elaboration.

 

[Tarang123]

No, it requires a lot more elaboration.

Otherwise, it's either Low 1A or a mere layer above High 1B, correct?

 

[Planck69]

Otherwise, it's either Low 1A or a mere layer above High 1B, correct?

I've heard either. As far as I'm aware though, the wiki treats it as Low 1-A if all we have to go off of is "views insert High 1-B multiverse here as fiction".

 

[PrinceofPein]

Otherwise, it's either Low 1A or a mere layer above High 1B, correct?

low 1A

anyway yes i agree with the downgrade, after the cosmology seperatrion it will be lower anyway

 

[Xearsay]

2. Overvoid doesn't see the multiverse as fictional. Even beings from the Overvoid like Supercelestials do not perceive beings from the multiverse as fictional. There's no R>F layers between the top tiers of DC and the bottom tiers.

You can keep peddling this narrative all you want. It's still wrong. It's shown to us that beings in comic book limbo are reading the lower beings of reality like a story.

The Cathexis see the world across flat screens from their realm.

The eonymous see the world across a tv screen.

And universes appear as screens from Bleed space.

 

[Tarang123]

You can keep peddling this narrative all you want. It's still wrong. It's shown to us that beings in comic book limbo are reading the lower beings of reality like a story.

The Cathexis see the world across flat screens from their realm.

The eonymous see the world across a tv screen.

And universes appear as screens from Bleed space.

That's great and all, but nothing has been provided to support High 1A Overvoid. Tbf, it's pretty hard to even give Overvoid anything higher than a few layers above baseline 1A.

 

[Teezar]

This thread will probably get closed like other threads like this till the main DC revision.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Main revision that has been stagnant for years?

 

[Teezar]

You think it's easy to do a full revision on a verse like DC comics? The members working on it then left or were banned so the one's currently working on it are trying their best to find a good statistics for DC comics.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You think it's easy to do a full revision on a verse like DC comics? The members working on it then left or were banned so the one's currently working on it are trying their best to find a good statistics for DC comics.

feels like some sherlock holmes stuff is going on if the ones working on it got banned, Damn DC must have sime really good supporters

 

[Teezar]

Lol, It's been mentioned on past threads.
Every franchise has good supporters and surprisingly the numbers of DC experts are less currently. And they are rumours it's gonna happen after infinite frontier.

 

[Urshani]

You think it's easy to do a full revision on a verse like DC comics? The members working on it then left or were banned so the one's currently working on it are trying their best to find a good statistics for DC comics.

what happened to make them get banned

 

[Teezar]

I only know of Matthew don't know of the rest.
Tho I was expecting him to return but I heard rumours he isn't gonna comeback. But it's possible he will return but it depends on him.

 

[Xearsay]

That's great and all, but nothing has been provided to support High 1A Overvoid. Tbf, it's pretty hard to even give Overvoid anything higher than a few layers above baseline 1A.

I'm pretty sure Ultima already expressed how high 1-A Overvoid is possible if we accept that the DC multiverse is 1-A.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

Overvoid do not view multiverse as fiction because they try not to be contaminated by the multiverse.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm pretty sure Ultima already expressed how high 1-A Overvoid is possible if we accept that the DC multiverse is 1-A.

Again, he offered a possible explanation, something that I said is probably not High 1A just due to what we know of Overvoid. Overvoid viewing a 1A cosmology as fiction isn't High 1A. It's merely a layer above 1A, even then it's doubtful that it even views them as fiction due to the fact that it actually needed to make the monitors to protect itself from the multiverse and whatnot.

 

[Teezar]

whatnot

The way you've been constantly saying this makes me see "why not" as "whatnot"

 

[Tarang123]

The way you've been constantly saying this makes me see "why not" as "whatnot"

wtf does that even mean. I'm just saying that cause the multiverse is a bit of an oversimplification and there's more multiverses in DC, if I'm not mistaken. That's all I was saying. Not sure what you mean by "why not", but whatever.