Overvoid Downgrade

[Ultima_Reality]

I see… thing is, I don’t think that’s High 1A, at least, not very concretely

Definitionally, it is High 1-A, yeah, at least when done in contrast to an 1-A cosmology, like I said. Unless there's some additional context that prevents it from being that high, which there likely is, in this case.

What I believe you're saying is that the Overmonitor is completely outside of the framework in which the rest of the DC Multiverse operates inside of. But I don't see how the DC Multiverse would be able to 'threaten' the Overvoid if that's the case? Does the Overmind really exist transcendent over the framework of the DC Multiverse when it can still be affected by it, even in a minuscule way?

It's not exactly threatening the Overvoid in a physical, direct way, no. The point is moreso that, previously, there was nothing but the pristine, non-dual "Perfection" of the comic's blank page, and the insertion of the DC Multiverse ("The Flaw") within that expanse of nothingness caused Perfection to create concepts to contain it, and start to define itself by its relationship to the Flaw, and since Perfection is limitless and devoid of all definitions, it has no way to defend itself from thus process, and starts to become infected by the narratives and concepts coming from The Flaw, with the Monitor Sphere as a whole being basically the cage which it built to halt the spread of this infection.

So, like I said, it qualifies for the "Exists outside of the framework in which 1-A entities are defines" part of High 1-A, but it doesn't seem like it's portrayed as unreachable to the things and definitions that make up this framework, at least under Morrison's interpretation of the setting, which makes it a weird case compared to similar characters.

Then again, Morrison also makes it pretty clear that all concepts and definitions "crumble" upon reaching the Overvoid, and in the context of Final Crisis alone, at least, Mandrakk was completely dissolved down to the idea of his character after falling off the Monitor Sphere (Before The Unexpected retconned that, of course), so it's possible I'm misinterpreting something here, too.

Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting – Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

 

[Tarang123]

Definitionally, it is High 1-A, yeah, at least when done in contrast to an 1-A cosmology, like I said. Unless there's some additional context that prevents it from being that high, which there likely is, in this case.

Thing is, the statement by Grant Morrison (I think it was by him) seems to suggest that the Monitors were specifically made to manage the multiverse for Overvoid and whatnot, which goes against the nature of High 1A completely. Even at a highball, that would only be a crap ton of layers into 1A or 1A+.

It's not exactly threatening the Overvoid in a physical, direct way, no. The point is moreso that, previously, there was nothing but the pristine, non-dual "Perfection" of the comic's blank page, and the insertion of the DC Multiverse ("The Flaw") within that expanse of nothingness caused Perfection to create concepts to contain it, and start to define itself by its relationship to the Flaw, and since Perfection is limitless and devoid of all definitions, it has no way to defend itself from thus process, and starts to become infected by the narratives and concepts coming from The Flaw, with the Monitor Sphere as a whole being basically the cage which it built to halt the spread of this infection.

So, like I said, it qualifies for the "Exists outside of the framework in which 1-A entities are defines" part of High 1-A, but it doesn't seem like it's portrayed as unreachable to the things and definitions that make up this framework, at least under Morrison's interpretation of the setting, which makes it a weird case compared to similar characters.

I never said it was threatening it. However, I think the problem with High 1A Overvoid is that you've clearly admitted that it's likely not completely unreachable or inaccessibly above everything else, which is exactly what goes against High 1A.

 

[Teezar]

Thing is, the statement by Grant Morrison (I think it was by him) seems to suggest that the Monitors were specifically made to manage the multiverse for Overvoid and whatnot, which goes against the nature of High 1A completely. Even at a highball, that would only be a crap ton of layers into 1A or 1A+.

Can I see scan of this, I only remember it stated that monitor sphere are just thoughts of the Overvoid and this multiverse is just 1 of infinite multiverses made by the hands.

 

[Tarang123]

Can I see scan of this, I only remember it stated that monitor sphere are just thoughts of the Overvoid and this multiverse is just 1 of infinite multiverses made by the hands.

Ultima posted it, but I'll just quote it.

"In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse."

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I never said it was threatening it. However, I think the problem with High 1A Overvoid is that you've clearly admitted that it's likely not completely unreachable or inaccessibly above everything else, which is exactly what goes against High 1A.

Yeah, I'm not really arguing that it should keep the High 1-A (Or that it should go to 1-A) here, just entertaining both possibilities.

 

[Xearsay]

Also here’s the statement by Morrison from his Wired interview.

As far as I'm aware. No one has gone from being in a level within the Multiverse to the Overvoid. So it should be actually unreachable.

 

[Tarang123]

Yeah, I'm not really arguing that it should keep the High 1-A (Or that it should go to 1-A) here, just entertaining both possibilities.

Alright, so in a vote count, would you count yourself as neutral?

 

[Tarang123]

As far as I'm aware. No one has gone from being in a level in the Multiverse to the Overvoid. So it should be actually unreachable.

Wait, but I already showed that it's not, tho...

And being unreachable to 1A realms could just be seen as another layer into 1A just due to how alephs and cardinals work and whatnot.

 

[Xearsay]

Wait, but I already showed that it's not, tho...

And being unreachable to 1A realms could just be seen as another layer into 1A just due to how alephs and cardinals work and whatnot.

Yeah but it has to function that way. And the problem here is that the Overvoid really just doesn't fit that way. If it was simply another layer of 1-A it would be another sphere within the Multiverse. However the Overvoid seems to function as something that both transcends and underlies everything. As I tried to show in my drawing.

Combine that with it being essentially devoid of all definition and that gives us an entity outside of the 1-A framework while being simultaneously unreachable.

 

[Tarang123]

Yeah but it has to function that way. And the problem here is that the Overvoid really just doesn't fit that way. If it was simply another layer of 1-A it would be another sphere within the Multiverse. However the Overvoid seems to function as something that both transcends and underlies everything. As I tried to show in my drawing.

Notice how it's underneath everything, upholding existence while also transcending it.

That's not at all how that would work. Overvoid being in another layer of 1A could still apply even when it's disconnected from the rest of it. It upholding everything and transcending everything as well doesn't really mean High 1A. In fact, the same could still apply, again, if Overvoid was just a layer of 1A above it. It being inaccessible to the rest of the cosmology wouldn't entail for High 1A at all if no further context is given.

Combine that with it being essentially devoid of all definition and that gives us an entity outside of the 1-A framework while being simultaneously unreachable.

Again, I already showed that it's not really inaccessible to everything else as it literally requires the Monitors to manage the multiverse to "protect" it. That contradicts it being unreachable to said 1A multiverse.

 

[Tarang123]

Yeah but it has to function that way. And the problem here is that the Overvoid really just doesn't fit that way. If it was simply another layer of 1-A it would be another sphere within the Multiverse. However the Overvoid seems to function as something that both transcends and underlies everything. As I tried to show in my drawing.

Notice how it's underneath everything, upholding existence.

Combine that with it being essentially devoid of all definition and that gives us an entity outside of the 1-A framework while being simultaneously unreachable.

Also, did you just draw a picture? If you could show actual scans, that would be nice.

 

[Tarang123]

It is for entire verse, not god tiers only.

Agree with Overvoid downgrade btw.

How big is this incoming downgrade going to be?

 

[Xearsay]

That's not at all how that would work. Overvoid being in another layer of 1A could still apply even when it's disconnected from the rest of it. It upholding everything and transcending everything as well doesn't really mean High 1A. In fact, the same could still apply, again, if Overvoid was just a layer of 1A above it.

So you're saying it could still be another layer of 1-A despite not being a part of the Multiverse? I'll actually agree with this. Whether it's a part of the Multiverse or not definitely has nothing to do with whether it's 1-A. However I just don't think the Overvoid fits as just a layer above a 1-A realm because because it's not simply beyond the Monitor Sphere. It's beyond The Source as well which is the foundation for all things. Including these 1-A realms like Comic Book Limbo, The Monitor Sphere, and The 6th dimension.

Also I never said upholding everything meant high 1-A. I was just describing my illustration.

It being inaccessible to the rest of the cosmology wouldn't entail for High 1A at all if no further context is given.

Agreed. "If" no further context is given that is.

Again, I already showed that it's not really inaccessible to everything else as it literally requires the Monitors to manage the multiverse to "protect" it. That contradicts it being unreachable to said 1A multiverse.

The Monitors weren't protecting the Overvoid. They were just managing the Multiverse for it. This doesn't really have anything to do with whether it's unreachable or not. All this really means is that the Overvoid is lazy.

 

[Tarang123]

So you're saying it could still be another layer of 1-A despite not being a part of the Multiverse? I'll actually agree with this. Whether it's a part of the Multiverse or not definitely has nothing to do with whether it's 1-A. However I just don't think the Overvoid fits as just a layer above a 1-A realm because because it's not simply beyond the Monitor Sphere. It's beyond The Source as well which is the foundation for all things.

Also I never said upholding everything meant high 1-A. I was just describing my illustration.

Oh, nvm. As I said, it's simply 1A. How high into 1A is a completely different question.

The Monitors weren't protecting the Overvoid. They were just managing the Multiverse for it. This doesn't really have anything to do with whether it's unreachable or not. All this really means is that the Overvoid is lazy.

Well, it was implied that they were created as a self-defense mechanism for the Overvoid after it noticed the Multiverse.

 

[Xearsay]

Oh, nvm. As I said, it's simply 1A. How high into 1A is a completely different question.

I'm just gonna agree to disagree then.

Well, it was implied that they were created as a self-defense mechanism for the Overvoid after it noticed the Multiverse.

They weren't though. They were simply meant to study the flaw while functioning as an interface between Monitor Mind and the Multiverse.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

im just waiting for dc/marvel to be High 1-C

 

[Elizio33]

To me, the Grant Morrison's cosmology including Limbo and the Monitor Sphere should be High 1-C and 1-A for the Overvoid but it's just my opinion.

 

[Tarang123]

The reasoning for the downgrade is different than what I had in mind but he has no business being in High 1-A anyway. So I suppose I agree. The justifications can be tackled with the later DC Comics revisions.

what exactly would your reasoning for a downgrade be?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

im just waiting for dc/marvel to be High 1-C

marvel has infinite dimensions unlike DC

 

[Tarang123]

I guess so, but that's kinda derailing. I think we should stay on topic for this downgrade

 

[Darksmash]

Existing as the background of the cosmology shouldn't really warrant that big of a tier jump. Most 1-A layers act as conceptual backgrounds to each other. It doesn't really prove anything significant.

 

[Tarang123]

Exactly, I don't think the evidence proposed for Overvoid is enough for a solid High 1A rating.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

I agree to downgrade because Overvoid is ambiguous to be High 1-A

 

[Tarang123]

Just a quick question for everyone, but is there like a requirement for the number of people required to agree, so that changes can be implemented.

 

[Abu2411]

We could start counting votes.

But shouldn't this be covered in the DC downgrade CRT after infinite frontier ends? The Omniverse sounds like a higher version of 2-A.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm just gonna agree to disagree then.

They weren't though. They were simply meant to study the flaw while functioning as an interface between Monitor Mind and the Multiverse.

However, it's stated in the comic that it was essentially a self-defense mechanism

 

[Tarang123]

We could start counting votes.

But shouldn't this be covered in the DC downgrade CRT after infinite frontier ends? The Omniverse sounds like a higher version of 2-A.

I guess if votes can be counted, people that disagree with the downgrade should make their opinions a bit more blatant.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm kinda stupid, so for everyone here, just put in whether you agree or disagree, so I can tally up the votes for now.

 

[Xearsay]

However, it's stated in the comic that it was essentially a self-defense mechanism

Where? I read the entirety of Final Crisis and Multiversity and I see nothing mentioning that. Also the scan I showed you is from the comic as well.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes.

 

[Planck69]

what exactly would your reasoning for a downgrade be?

The hierarchy beneath it not being 1-A to begin with, which would make the Overvoid baseline 1-A by its current reasoning.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Alright, so in a vote count, would you count yourself as neutral?

Kind of? I can see where a justification for a downgrade from High 1-A may come from, but I think the rating itself is still possible, given what I outlined up there (And in the paragraph I edited into my previous post, if you haven't seen it yet), so, seeing that being addressed would probably stabilize my stance on the matter.

 

[Teezar]

To me, the Grant Morrison's cosmology including Limbo and the Monitor Sphere should be High 1-C and 1-A for the Overvoid but it's just my opinion.

Limbo and monitor sphere are 1A realms

 

[Tarang123]

Limbo and monitor sphere are 1A realms

Proof?

 

[Teezar]

POM explaination on the trinity:
Despite generally being associated with different parts of DC cosmology, these various entities are actually one entity when viewed in their transcendent whole as the Void beyond all Creations. One God, with each of the three being points of view or potentially emanations, all existing as completely transcendent to the Greater Omniverse.

God has appeared in various aspects to lower beings but is in truth an unbounded Void, infinite and eternal, where all things become one and, simultaneously, none. We saw above that all the Creations of the Greater Omniverse sum up to zero in comparison.

Another way some writers refer to the state of ultimate oneness and nothingness is Brahman/Sea of Brahma, the universal spirit, God's unconscious, etc. As described, they are the exact same thing as the previous three, just referred to in a different way.

 

[Darksmash]

Nvm I am dumb

 

[Deagonx]

And the Thought Robot is literally an extension of the Overvoid

This was never stated in the comic.

They were simply meant to study the flaw while functioning as an interface between Monitor Mind and the Multiverse

That was their 2nd origin, yes, but not the original background nor their most current origin, so it doesn't really matter.

morrison cosmology is 1C to High 1C. Its based on string theory

This is my problem with most things regarding Morrison on battleboards. Morrison waxed philosophical in plenty of interviews over the years, but nearly none of that ever made it into an actual comic book. If we stuck solely to what was actually printed by DC rather than any wild thing Morrison said in any given interview about his works, we don't have anything close to a 1-A rating. Nothing about string theory or M theory was ever in a DC comic book by Morrison.

Very little was actually said about Overvoid even in the comics, and a lot of it was vague. There are huge leaps and assumptions in the Overvoid page itself. For example:

Dax Novu became infected with them and collapsed the defenses of the Monitor-Mind in the process, dividing itself into Mandrakk the Dark Monitor and The Thought Robot

The notion that Thought Robot was half of the split of the probe is purely conjecture, it's never stated or implied.

After this event, the Overvoid too, became seemingly plagued by narratives and speculations regarding the Flaw and the events unfolding within and around it, condensing countless narratives and stories out of itself, giving origin to the race of The Monitors.

This is no longer canon.

Overvoid is a very good example of why splitting DC by authors makes sense. In Morrison's time, here's some of what Overvoid did:

Created the Monitors, killed Mandrakk, created the Orrery of Worlds (at least, according to a Morrison interview, the 'concept' created to contain the flaw was the Orrery, not the universes but rather the construct that held them), etc.

However, in current DC canon, the Monitors were fragments of Mar Novu, Mandrakk didn't die and was later defeated by the Unexpected, and Perpetua's backstory more or less retcons the notion that Overvoid created the Orrery, since it doesn't fit into her creation of the multiverse with her sons.

If modern DC canon is to be followed (which generally speaking it should), then Overvoid is little more than a giant void. If you go with what was canon in DC during Morrison's time on top, see above. If you also consider interviews canon (you shouldn't, aside from clarifications about actual comic book scans), then suddenly DC has tons of wild philosophical shit that was never actually printed, which to me is bad news bears.

 

[Tarang123]

Nvm I am dumb

Y?

 

[Firestorm808]

Considering the nature of the Overvoid in Final Crisis elaborated by Grant Morrison, I consider it to be at least 1-A.

For it to be High 1-A, we need to identify the "states or realms which are completely transcendent over infinitely-layered Outerversal hierarchies and any extensions thereof, as well as the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place" below it. We would need to find the justification of the 6th Dimension or Monitor Sphere that matches this requirement.

 

[Tarang123]

This was never stated in the comic.

That was their 2nd origin, yes, but not the original background nor their most current origin, so it doesn't really matter.

This is my problem with most things regarding Morrison on battleboards. Morrison waxed philosophical in plenty of interviews over the years, but nearly none of that ever made it into an actual comic book. If we stuck solely to what was actually printed by DC rather than any wild thing Morrison said in any given interview about his works, we don't have anything close to a 1-A rating. Nothing about string theory or M theory was ever in a DC comic book by Morrison.

Very little was actually said about Overvoid even in the comics, and a lot of it was vague. There are huge leaps and assumptions in the Overvoid page itself. For example:



The notion that Thought Robot was half of the split of the probe is purely conjecture, it's never stated or implied.

This is no longer canon.

Overvoid is a very good example of why splitting DC by authors makes sense. In Morrison's time, here's some of what Overvoid did:

Created the Monitors, killed Mandrakk, created the Orrery of Worlds (at least, according to a Morrison interview, the 'concept' created to contain the flaw was the Orrery, not the universes but rather the construct that held them), etc.

However, in current DC canon, the Monitors were fragments of Mar Novu, Mandrakk didn't die and was later defeated by the Unexpected, and Perpetua's backstory more or less retcons the notion that Overvoid created the Orrery, since it doesn't fit into her creation of the multiverse with her sons.

If modern DC canon is to be followed (which generally speaking it should), then Overvoid is little more than a giant void. If you go with what was canon in DC during Morrison's time on top, see above. If you also consider interviews canon (you shouldn't, aside from clarifications about actual comic book scans), then suddenly DC has tons of wild philosophical shit that was never actually printed, which to me is bad news bears.

Interesting…