One Piece: Dinkleberg Quinkleturd Big Planet Shake

[Crobatman44]

Yes I believe based on the OP the solid rating is 2.7 exatons whereas the WB quake (whatever that gets accepted as) would be possibly. So ig if this all gets accepted they’d be like High 6-A, possibly High 6-A+/5-C, based off of solely what’s in the OP last I checked.

I have no problems with One Piece joining the based Exaton meta(alongside the other based meta that being the quettaton meta)
So i agree.

 

[DivineAura44]

In cases like these, don't you add the accepted stuff first and make an additional CRT afterwards?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

In cases like these, don't you add the accepted stuff first and make an additional CRT afterwards?

If scaling changes then yeah a new scaling crt will be made, but if scaling isn’t gonna change and this is all accepted it’ll just get added to the profiles under the already accepted scaling.

 

[KingTempest]

Side note: For weird-ass planets like this, if you want to calculate Earthquakes, just gun for it using good old fashioned KE.

Speed values here. Convert from cm/s to m/s. Works on any and all planets of all shapes and sizes. Just get the mass and you're good to go.

I'm assuming this would be factually better than using the earthquake formula OR is this just another option?

 

[KLOL506]

I'm assuming this would be factually better than using the earthquake formula OR is this just another option?

In the case of OP's planet given that it's like, way bigger than Earth, this would indeed be factually better.

 

[Ayewale]

I agree with the OP since it doesn't change Whitebeard's actual tier much.

 

[KingTempest]

In the case of OP's planet given that it's like, way bigger than Earth, this would indeed be factually better.

Huh, alright then

 

[Deceived3596]

I have a question in regards to Whitebeard's calculation.

What supports the assumption that Whitebeard's quakes are capable of shaking the entirety of the planet in a short period of time to cause this world wide destruction compared to other interpretations like Whitebeard's quakes causing mass environmental damage, over an unknown length of time, through byproducts of his ability like tsunamis, which aren't inherently scalable to the strength of his Paramecia? Especially since we know that Whitebeard's quakes can create absolutely massive and strong tsunamis as shown with Blackbeard's usage of his ability.

I'm neutral on the assumption in itself, I just want more clarifying reasons as to why this is assumed to be more probable compared to the other interpretation.

 

[KingTempest]

I have a question in regards to Whitebeard's calculation.

What supports the assumption that Whitebeard's quakes are capable of shaking the entirety of the planet in a short period of time to cause this world wide destruction compared to other interpretations like Whitebeard's quakes causing mass environmental damage, over an unknown length of time, through byproducts of his ability like tsunamis, which aren't inherently scalable to the strength of his Paramecia? Especially since we know that Whitebeard's quakes can create absolutely massive and strong tsunamis as shown with Blackbeard's usage of his ability.

#1 The tsunamis are directly scaleable to his AP
#2 He has the range for it
#3 That method calculates the distance to cause minor damage to badly built structures through the previous statement of there being the possibility of damage being dealt through the quakes, or Magnitude 6. Tsunamis are magnitude 8.
#4 Tsunamis are not being factored into the OP's calculation

 

[Damage3245]

To address the Blackbeard earthquake calc first.

The calc depends on the distance between Marineford and Sabaody Archipelago being at least 29726 kilometers apart. This figure is found by pixelscaling the distance between Mary Geoise (which is in line with Marineford) and the center of the Grand Line (which is assumed to be in line with Sabaody Archipelago), using this depiction of the One Piece planet.

I do not believe that a distance of this magnitude between the two locations is supported by the narrative and I'll explain why here:

• First, it is iterated multiple times that Marineford is close to Sabaody Archipelago here (Ch. 497), and here (Ch. 497) and here (Ch. 501).

At face value this may not mean that much; I can see it being argued that in the grand scheme of the One Piece world, 29726 kilometers is "relatively" close, however there is further context given to us.

• The arrival of an battleship with an Admiral from Marineford / Navy Headquarters is treated as an imminent threat by the people on Sabaody Archipelago (Ch. 503), with some pirates crews wanting to set sail immediately in order to avoid the danger posed by the arriving Admiral (Ch. 504).
• Between the Marines on Sabaody Archipelago getting confirmation that Kizaru is on the way from Marineford (Ch. 504), and Kizaru arriving at Sabaody Archipelago (Ch. 506), not a whole lot happens. Luffy, Law and Kid have a skirmish with the Marines outside the auction hall, the Straw Hats return to Shakky's bar and have a conversation with Rayleigh and before the conversation is even over, Kizaru has already arrived at the coast. The timespan of these events is not big; Kizaru's arrival does indeed happen soon just as the Marines were told in chapter 504. It's definitely within the same day and for all we know it's within the same hour.

This is not the only instance of there being quick travel speed by ship for characters between Marineford and Sabaody Archipelago.

• After the livestream feed gets cut off midway through the battle of Marineford, several of the Supernova set off from Sabaody Archipelago to Marineford. (Ch. 565) By the time the war is over, we see that all of the Supernovas have arrived in the sea near Marineford. (Ch. 581) It's not indicated that the Supernovas arrived only in time to see the end of the war; they may have arrived even earlier as Trafalgar Law entered the battlefield in order to rescue Monkey D. Luffy while the fighting was still ongoing (Ch. 578). While we don't know exactly how long the Paramount War took place over, we know it was all within the same day, quite possibly just in the span of a few hours or less. Yet the Supernovas could travel from Sabaody Archipelago to Marineford after setting off midway through the battle.

I know some people may not treat Kizaru's travelling by battleship or the Supernovas travelling by their pirate ships as being significant here - they're fictional ships, right? So perhaps they can travel faster than IRL ships?

But it's pretty clear that with only a few exceptions (Law's submarine, paddleboats, or animal-pulled ships), the ships in One Piece travel by sailpower; harnessing the wind in their sails to give ships speed.

• When the Marines saw the Straw Hats folding away their sails, they thought it was possible the Straw Hats were giving up on their escape (Ch. 439) - showing that ships are dependent on the wind and their sails. (Ch. 439) and the Thousand Sunny travelling at 'full speed' was by sail (Ch. 438) and it quite obviously was not racing off at incredible speeds as we still had that whole scene with Usopp's apology while the ship was sailing away.
• Furthermore, to contradict the notion that perhaps Marine Battleships are able to travel at incredible speed, we know that the Thousand Sunny can fly for one kilometer through the use of the Coup de Burst (Ch. 439). If Marine Battleships like Garp's ship could travel at the speed of sound (343 m/s) on a whim, then they would have caught up to the Thousand Sunny in less than 3 seconds. Which is something they plainly couldn't do, as they gave up the chase.
  • If Marine Battleships typically travel slower than the speed of sound, they would take well over 24 hours to travel the distance of "29726 kilometers". The multiple instances of travel time we've seen between the two locations contradict this figure.

The only evidence for the 29726 kilometer figure comes from pixelscaling the distance between where Mary Geoise is pointed to be on this diagram and where the rough "center of the Grand Line" is, as that is where it is assumed Sabaody Archipelago is.

However Sabaody Archipelago being in the exact center of the Grand Line is not actually stated on this page. It is just a rough diagram showing the different routes through the Grand Line converging. While it's pretty obvious Sabaody Archipelago is located in the vicinity of the middle of the Grand Line, that doesn't actually inform us of its exact position in relation to Mary Geoise.

This isn't really any different than using the diagram on this page to say that Marineford must be in the center of the Grand Line too as it looks like it is drawn roughly in the middle here.

Since the original diagram used in the pixelscaling only has Mary Geoise's location roughly labelled and Sabaody Archipelago or Marineford isn't indicated on the diagram, and we don't have confirmation on Sabaody Archipelago being in the exact center of the Grand Line, and the figure found from pixelscaling is heavily contradicted by the narrative - I am not in favor of the Blackbeard calc being used.

 

[KingTempest]

Ok

So that’s 1 calc down

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Are the other calcs that are being used to support the WB stuff gonna be posted in the OP? Or are they not going to be brought up in this thread?

 

[KingTempest]

Are the other calcs that are being used to support the WB stuff gonna be posted in the OP? Or are they not going to be brought up in this thread?

I really didn't intend for it to be so, but if this is now a "we're gonna tackle everything except the main point in the OP" they might as well be.

Gimme a minute

 

[Damage3245]

I really didn't intend for it to be so, but if this is now a "we're gonna tackle everything except the main point in the OP" they might as well be.

Gimme a minute

It's really not that; the Blackbeard calc was offered up in the OP as a reason for why the Whitebeard feat isn't a "far out feat", so I had to address it first.

 

[KingTempest]

It's really not that; the Blackbeard calc was offered up in the OP as a reason for why the Whitebeard feat isn't a "far out feat", so I had to address it first.

That's great.

So here is the Enel calculation, which ends up scaling to the God Tiers and brings another value to the ballpark of those same guys.

We also have the desperately not wanted to be quantified far out earthquake feats of Whitebeard affecting randomly distant islands, the several handfuls of statements saying that he can destroy the world, the possible backscaling from swinging the Bajrang Gun, and whatever else.'

 

[Damage3245]

Okay, I'll work on my next post as soon as I can.

 

[Eseseso]

That's great.

So here is the Enel calculation, which ends up scaling to the God Tiers and brings another value to the ballpark of those same guys.

We also have the desperately not wanted to be quantified far out earthquake feats of Whitebeard affecting randomly distant islands, the several handfuls of statements saying that he can destroy the world, the possible backscaling from swinging the Bajrang Gun, and whatever else.'

Woah, how exactly does the Enel calc scale to the God Tiers?

 

[KingTempest]

Woah, how exactly does the Enel calc scale to the God Tiers?

We gotta go through this in every thread?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I have a handful of issues regarding the Enel calculation as it pertains to our outlier standards. At least based on the implications of the calc now, down the line who knows this could all change. I'll go through each outline for determining an outlier by our site standards, and explain why I believe that, according to our site, Enel's feat/calc is an outlier.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power? If a character with several city destruction feats is shown to be able to destroy a mountain, we cannot necessarily consider it as an outlier, for the reason that the jump between tiers is not extreme enough to be so, despite the jump between energy values we attribute to them. If the character has very few feats, we can likely ignore this point.

Enel previous was rated as around Small City levels of power (handful of megatons) with Island level environmental destruction (handful of gigatons), and then jumps to Moon level (55 exatons). This absolutely a "big jump" in power, spanning two tiers, skipping through virtually the entirety of tier 6. Enel is not a character with just very few feats either, he has well establish scaling and feats prior to this making him consistently in that tier 7 range. Before someone jumps me and says "but he just got stronger tho" keep reading, I'll address that.

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident? If incidents of a similar level are repeated consistently over time, they are unlikely to be outliers. Usually, from the third incident onwards. If the character has very few feats, we can also likely skip this point.

For Enel, this incident is very unique/exceptional, it is quite literally his first and only feat anywhere around Moon level. Enel does not have any supportive scaling or statements that make this incident not unique as he has no scaling to any other tier 5 feats or characters. And again, he is not a character of few feats. Furthermore, there is no "third incident" for Enel to make this unlikely an outlier.

3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified? If an extreme incident is not accompanied by any kind of explanation that justifies it, it is probably an outlier. But if it can be explained by means of some power-up, vulnerability, or limiter, it is likely not. If Superman is wounded by a bullet, it's probably an outlier. But if Superman was under the influence of red sunlight or was previously weakened with Kryptonite, it is not.

This point here is for the people who's immediate response is "he just got stronger". To my knowledge, there is zero explanation for Enel jumping from 10s of megatons to 10s of exatons (a trillion times increase). We aren't told or shown by any means, implicitly or explicitly, that Enel did some special training in that short trip to the moon in order to drastically increase his power level. By our own standards, if an extreme incident, such as this, is not accompanied by any kind of explanation to justify it, it is likely an outlier.

4) Does the event break the previously established power-scaling? Here we must take into account a number of factors, such as comparable characters possessing feats or statements of a similar level to the hypothetical outlier, the outlier not being supported by fights that might suggest a similar level, or subsequent events or statements that contradict it in some way.

This event likely breaks the previously established power-scaling. There are no other characters comparable to Enel, as in there are no other characters Enel has scaling to, that possess feats or statements around similar levels. Enel doesn't scale to Whitebeard or G5 Luffy, who possess these other Moon level feats.

5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work? Many times an outlier breaks with what has been previously established or shown in a work, creating inconsistencies that are difficult to resolve unless we invalidate one of the two events. If, for example, a character claims not to be able to dodge bullets, even though he was previously seen dodging them explicitly, we are faced with a contradiction where we will probably have to resort to using the more reliable evidence.

I don't believe that Enel being Moon level inherently breaks the narrative. I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years, but that's not something I'm interested in heavily debating.

So, looking at this in totality: Enel's Moon level feat is 1) a big jump in power, 2) a unique and exceptional incident, 3) an unexplained event, and 4) is an event that breaks the previously established power-scaling. That is 4 of the 5 guidelines for being an outlier satisfied for the Enel feat, and therefore I believe that the Enel calc is an outlier by the vsbw standards. TLDR; I disagree with the usage of the Enel calc.

 

[Deceived3596]

@Crabwhale Don't comment on this thread, don't listen to Arc.

 

[SnookB]

Enel previous was rated as around Small City levels of power (handful of megatons) with Island level environmental destruction (handful of gigatons), and then jumps to Moon level (55 exatons). This absolutely a "big jump" in power, spanning two tiers, skipping through virtually the entirety of tier 6. Enel is not a character with just very few feats either, he has well establish scaling and feats prior to this making him consistently in that tier 7 range. Before someone jumps me and says "but he just got stronger tho" keep reading, I'll address that.

And yet Enel has a narrative feat where he erased Birka, a country. It's off-screen yes, but his destructive/AOE feats have always varied. We don't know Birka's size or anything, but it was likely not too different from Skypiea since it hosted a race of skypieans that shouldn't have been insignificant compared to skypiea's population. Point is: It's of narrative importance that Enel made a country "vanish without a trace" 6 years before skypiea's events, so his destructive power being assumed to be what's only presented in Skypiea in of itself isn't concrete.

For Enel, this incident is very unique/exceptional, it is quite literally his first and only feat anywhere around Moon level. Enel does not have any supportive scaling or statements that make this incident not unique as he has no scaling to any other tier 5 feats or characters. And again, he is not a character of few feats. Furthermore, there is no "third incident" for Enel to make this unlikely an outlier.

The same argument as the first.
He has the narrative backing of vaporizing a country when he was younger/possibly much weaker. We simply don't know his real power to assume it's only locked under the feats he displayed in that single arc.

This point here is for the people who's immediate response is "he just got stronger". To my knowledge, there is zero explanation for Enel jumping from 10s of megatons to 10s of exatons (a trillion times increase). We aren't told or shown by any means, implicitly or explicitly, that Enel did some special training in that short trip to the moon in order to drastically increase his power level. By our own standards, if an extreme incident, such as this, is not accompanied by any kind of explanation to justify it, it is likely an outlier.

It's not a "he just got stronger" in my opinion, it's a "he's been vague with his showings, and assuming his limit when it isn't shown is unfair" and the one time he was going all out, it was against his natural counter and did barely anything to show for it. And before asking "then why didn't he destroy skypiea easily." Well.. the whole arc speaks for itself. He wanted to host his game, prepare the maxim, etc..

Also why do we assume it was a "short trip"? Where is it stated that his trip was short? We see him at the end of skypiea severely injured and covered in blood. There's an unknown timeframe, and the cover story shows him with no injuries, bandages, or the like.

This event likely breaks the previously established power-scaling. There are no other characters comparable to Enel, as in there are no other characters Enel has scaling to, that possess feats or statements around similar levels. Enel doesn't scale to Whitebeard or G5 Luffy, who possess these other Moon level feats.

As a Logia, his power is stated to be amongst the Invincible ones.
He doesn't have to match its potency with durability. Him discharging enough power to damage things that can withstand a blast of that power doesn't tie back to him being able to have that level as an overall combatant.

I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years

According to the site that's where they are, yes. But don't forget the site (due to rules) ignores dozens of amplifiers of power that could just as easily put said prodigies in that tier far, far earlier than current time.

That is 4 of the 5 guidelines for being an outlier satisfied for the Enel feat, and therefore I believe that the Enel calc is an outlier by the vsbw standards. TLDR; I disagree with the usage of the Enel calc.

Lastly; Disagreeing with the "Enel calc" as a whole means you not only write off Enel, but the machinery that made him scale in the first place.
Enel being an outlier doesn't mean the machinery displaying the feat is.

Assuming everything you said above is correct, you can't strip the verse of that rating via the machinery itself displaying that level of power using advanced technology, which currently has shown to be capable of far greater levels of powers.

Even if Enel himself is the outlier, (which admittedly isn't hard to argue) One Piece's shown technology scaling to other advanced tech with great levels of destruction (mother flame, or any other ancient weapon statements) isn't inconsistent.
Yes, nobody scales to them, but they're still a level of power shown within the verse, and a Devil Fruit known for Worldly destruction of the same caliber (supported by a dozen statements) falling under the same umbrella on a lower scale isn't outlier.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I’ll get back to you later, it’s dinner time

 

[SnookB]

I’ll get back to you later, it’s dinner time

No rush m'boy

 

[KingTempest]

I swear I'm fighting pointless endeavors atp but idc.

Enel previous was rated as around Small City levels of power (handful of megatons) with Island level environmental destruction (handful of gigatons), and then jumps to Moon level (55 exatons). This absolutely a "big jump" in power, spanning two tiers, skipping through virtually the entirety of tier 6. Enel is not a character with just very few feats either, he has well establish scaling and feats prior to this making him consistently in that tier 7 range. Before someone jumps me and says "but he just got stronger tho" keep reading, I'll address that.

I'm only going to just reply to this cause it's pretty much the same as the others.

Enel was known to be "a god" to a bunch of tier 7s. Only reason why we don't have him at higher tiers is because the wiki is goober central.

Enel was stated to have the possibility to have a bounty of the same as Ace if he touched the Blue Sea (who scales to Whitebeard) because of how troublesome his power is, and that the only reason they survived is cause Luffy's devil fruit pulled through. Enel isn't important. The large sum of his bounty would've been pointed towards his power, throwing him on the upper echelons of power.
"Other people have far higher bounties" yonko commanders and yonko who have status there as well. Ace got a 100m bounty just for his heritage.

Enel is stated by the new magazine to have one of the most powerful devil fruits, even among logias, scaling him at least relative to the other 6 logias who would scale to Whitebeard.

Enel is stated to have one of the few "invincible" devil fruits. At that point the Straw Hats have seen 3 other logias (one of them scaling to WB), and Robin was in an organization with one of them. Never said that before.

Enel has well established scaling and feats prior to that, like "being omnipotent compared to a handful of fodder tier 7s" and "one shotting every tier 7 character that comes his way", or "utilizing focused attacks to kill only specific people being calced".

On top of that, this is not a calculation of Enel. This is a calculation of the durability of the tools the Space Pirates used for their feats. Enel just scales to that. Several times.

"I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years"
Luffy went from mountain to damn near multi cont in a week. This is nothing.
And the gap between tiers is not a counter for growth as it just depends on whatever our damn fancalcs mark it as. One day it could be "city to moon", next day it can be "large mountain to country".

What you said is just saying "We mark Enel at small city for scaling above a bunch of fodder. I think him scaling to higher end feats is an outlier."
That's the same shit as before when we had Whitebeard at mountain level for scaling above the likes of goofballs like Perospero, or Mihawk at mountain for scaling above Cracker.

 

[Eseseso]

I swear I'm fighting pointless endeavors atp but idc.

I'm only going to just reply to this cause it's pretty much the same as the others.

Enel was known to be "a god" to a bunch of tier 7s. Only reason why we don't have him at higher tiers is because the wiki is goober central.

Enel was stated to have the possibility to have a bounty of the same as Ace if he touched the Blue Sea (who scales to Whitebeard) because of how troublesome his power is, and that the only reason they survived is cause Luffy's devil fruit pulled through. Enel isn't important. The large sum of his bounty would've been pointed towards his power, throwing him on the upper echelons of power.
"Other people have far higher bounties" yonko commanders and yonko who have status there as well. Ace got a 100m bounty just for his heritage.

Enel is stated by the new magazine to have one of the most powerful devil fruits, even among logias, scaling him at least relative to the other 6 logias who would scale to Whitebeard.

Enel is stated to have one of the few "invincible" devil fruits. At that point the Straw Hats have seen 3 other logias (one of them scaling to WB), and Robin was in an organization with one of them. Never said that before.

Enel has well established scaling and feats prior to that, like "being omnipotent compared to a handful of fodder tier 7s" and "one shotting every tier 7 character that comes his way", or "utilizing focused attacks to kill only specific people being calced".

On top of that, this is not a calculation of Enel. This is a calculation of the durability of the tools the Space Pirates used for their feats. Enel just scales to that. Several times.

"I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years"
Luffy went from mountain to damn near multi cont in a week. This is nothing.
And the gap between tiers is not a counter for growth as it just depends on whatever our damn fancalcs mark it as. One day it could be "city to moon", next day it can be "large mountain to country".

What you said is just saying "We mark Enel at small city for scaling above a bunch of fodder. I think him scaling to higher end feats is an outlier."
That's the same shit as before when we had Whitebeard at mountain level for scaling above the likes of goofballs like Perospero, or Mihawk at mountain for scaling above Cracker.

Enel fanboys eating good. I hate it.

 

[Crobatman44]

I swear I'm fighting pointless endeavors atp but idc.

I'm only going to just reply to this cause it's pretty much the same as the others.

Enel was known to be "a god" to a bunch of tier 7s. Only reason why we don't have him at higher tiers is because the wiki is goober central.

Enel was stated to have the possibility to have a bounty of the same as Ace if he touched the Blue Sea (who scales to Whitebeard) because of how troublesome his power is, and that the only reason they survived is cause Luffy's devil fruit pulled through. Enel isn't important. The large sum of his bounty would've been pointed towards his power, throwing him on the upper echelons of power.
"Other people have far higher bounties" yonko commanders and yonko who have status there as well. Ace got a 100m bounty just for his heritage.

Enel is stated by the new magazine to have one of the most powerful devil fruits, even among logias, scaling him at least relative to the other 6 logias who would scale to Whitebeard.

Enel is stated to have one of the few "invincible" devil fruits. At that point the Straw Hats have seen 3 other logias (one of them scaling to WB), and Robin was in an organization with one of them. Never said that before.

Enel has well established scaling and feats prior to that, like "being omnipotent compared to a handful of fodder tier 7s" and "one shotting every tier 7 character that comes his way", or "utilizing focused attacks to kill only specific people being calced".

On top of that, this is not a calculation of Enel. This is a calculation of the durability of the tools the Space Pirates used for their feats. Enel just scales to that. Several times.

"I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years"
Luffy went from mountain to damn near multi cont in a week. This is nothing.
And the gap between tiers is not a counter for growth as it just depends on whatever our damn fancalcs mark it as. One day it could be "city to moon", next day it can be "large mountain to country".

What you said is just saying "We mark Enel at small city for scaling above a bunch of fodder. I think him scaling to higher end feats is an outlier."
That's the same shit as before when we had Whitebeard at mountain level for scaling above the likes of goofballs like Perospero, or Mihawk at mountain for scaling above Cracker.

Question out of pure curiosity(i can delete if needed),if Enel were to return to the story,around what "level" would he have to be to not break the scaling?
Like would him returning as either fodder or Top tier hurt or help the scaling?
Edit:k,thanks for the quick response.(don't want to add an extra comment just to say thanks for answering.)

 

[KingTempest]

Question out of pure curiosity(i can delete if needed),if Enel were to return to the story,around what "level" would he have to be to not break the scaling?
Like would him returning as either fodder or Top tier hurt or help the scaling?

there is no level that he would return that would break the scaling unless he scales weaker than he previously was

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

And yet Enel has a narrative feat where he erased Birka, a country. It's off-screen yes, but his destructive/AOE feats have always varied. We don't know Birka's size or anything, but it was likely not too different from Skypiea since it hosted a race of skypieans that shouldn't have been insignificant compared to skypiea's population. Point is: It's of narrative importance that Enel made a country "vanish without a trace" 6 years before skypiea's events, so his destructive power being assumed to be what's only presented in Skypiea in of itself isn't concrete.

As you say, we have no knowledge on the size or makeup of Birka, but let's follow the rabbit hole of "Enel obliterated a country". Being narratively "6-B" is still millions of times below where this calc/feat is attempting to place him. The incident of this new feat is still a big jump in power and unique/exceptional, among all the other things I referenced about our Outlier standards. Destroying a country is nowhere close to good support for being able to exert the energy required to destroy the Moon with normal attacks. Not to mention, with what we saw in the Skypeia arc, that country could have been erased with something akin to Raigou, in which we have accepted to be 6-C environmental destruction. And according to what you said, Birka is likely similar to Skypeia. So, more realistically his destruction of Birka could be akin to Raigou, which is billions of times below his Moon level lightning bolt from the calc. Finally, Enel in his strongest form got done in by like a City level attack, Golden Rifle. So, I disagree with the notion that oh he was holding back his power millions to trillions of times based on the fact that narratively he can destroy a country, a country mind you we know nothing about. All in all, "but Enel destroyed a country in the past" is poor support for a Moon level feat.

The same argument as the first.
He has the narrative backing of vaporizing a country when he was younger/possibly much weaker. We simply don't know his real power to assume it's only locked under the feats he displayed in that single arc.

Again destroying a country is not support for having the power to destroy the entire Moon, twice over. If we were arguing for a 6-B calc for Enel, I'd say you'd be right on the money.

It's not a "he just got stronger" in my opinion, it's a "he's been vague with his showings, and assuming his limit when it isn't shown is unfair" and the one time he was going all out, it was against his natural counter and did barely anything to show for it. And before asking "then why didn't he destroy skypiea easily." Well.. the whole arc speaks for itself. He wanted to host his game, prepare the maxim, etc..

I find it very hard to buy the argument "he was holding back trillions of times" when one of his strongest attacks, Raigo, is a 6-C attack. I'm not going to argue he wasn't holding back that's fine, but Raigo, an attack that requires Enel to generate thunder clouds over time to absorb the lightning and electricity beyond what he can output on his own, in order to deliver 6-C damage makes it far more likely that he is not holding back trillions of times. Furthermore, the onus would shift incredibly on you to prove he was holding back to such a degree. The notion that he can be unquantifiably stronger than Small City level, does not bypass the guidelines set by our Outlier standards.

Also why do we assume it was a "short trip"? Where is it stated that his trip was short? We see him at the end of skypiea severely injured and covered in blood. There's an unknown timeframe, and the cover story shows him with no injuries, bandages, or the like.

My main point was moreso that the trip was more likely than not shorter than Luffy's two year training time skip.

As a Logia, his power is stated to be amongst the Invincible ones.
He doesn't have to match its potency with durability. Him discharging enough power to damage things that can withstand a blast of that power doesn't tie back to him being able to have that level as an overall combatant.

This doesn't address the guideline set by our Outlier standards. I never said that his durability scaled or anything of the sorts. The fact of the matter remains that Enel's lightning bolts have 0 supportive scaling, feats, or statements of being 5-C.

According to the site that's where they are, yes. But don't forget the site (due to rules) ignores dozens of amplifiers of power that could just as easily put said prodigies in that tier far, far earlier than current time.

Unfortunately, we are operating under the site, so just because there exists avenues of scaling that might not violate any standards off site doesn't mean anything to me when evaluating things on site. Like I'm aware you can use the Hody pills to multiply OP characters far beyond their standings on vsbw, but that doesn't matter here.

Lastly; Disagreeing with the "Enel calc" as a whole means you not only write off Enel, but the machinery that made him scale in the first place.
Enel being an outlier doesn't mean the machinery displaying the feat is.

I guess I should clarify, I disagree with Enel's part of the calc. And I disagree with Enel's part of the calc because of the scaling. I'm not saying the facility can't be of a certain level of toughness, but rather the calc portion placing Enel's lightning at 5-C is what I disagree with. Which is evident by the points I bring up specifically addressing Enel.

Assuming everything you said above is correct, you can't strip the verse of that rating via the machinery itself displaying that level of power using advanced technology, which currently has shown to be capable of far greater levels of powers.

Not what I'm saying? Like if you want to say this random machinery that scales absolutely nowhere and doesn't require any deeper thought of how it interacts with the powerscaling is 5-C, I don't really have any issue with that.

Even if Enel himself is the outlier, (which admittedly isn't hard to argue) One Piece's shown technology scaling to other advanced tech with great levels of destruction (mother flame, or any other ancient weapon statements) isn't inconsistent.
Yes, nobody scales to them, but they're still a level of power shown within the verse, and a Devil Fruit known for Worldly destruction of the same caliber (supported by a dozen statements) falling under the same umbrella on a lower scale isn't outlier.

So two things: 1) I never claimed the OP technology couldn't be 5-C, I claimed Enel's lightning being 5-C was an outlier by our very own site standards, and 2) unfortunately as I outlined in my original post, Enel having 5-C attacks is an outlier going by our site standards, Enel is not offered the same benefits of isolation that the OP machinery are offered.

It seems to me, your issue with my post is misinterpreting my claims to be "the machinery in OP cannot be 5-C", when in reality my claim is "Enel having 5-C lightning bolts is an outlier by our site standards".

I swear I'm fighting pointless endeavors atp but idc.

I'm only going to just reply to this cause it's pretty much the same as the others.

Are you only refuting the "big jump" guideline of our outlier standards? Because tackling a single guideline does not tackle all guidelines.

Enel was known to be "a god" to a bunch of tier 7s. Only reason why we don't have him at higher tiers is because the wiki is goober central.

I addressed the whole "but vsbw doesn't accept this" with Snook's post.

Enel was stated to have the possibility to have a bounty of the same as Ace if he touched the Blue Sea (who scales to Whitebeard) because of how troublesome his power is, and that the only reason they survived is cause Luffy's devil fruit pulled through. Enel isn't important. The large sum of his bounty would've been pointed towards his power, throwing him on the upper echelons of power.
"Other people have far higher bounties" yonko commanders and yonko who have status there as well. Ace got a 100m bounty just for his heritage.

Last I checked, bounties aren't inherently valid as DBZ style power levels. Furthermore, possessing a vague possibility of obtaining the same Bounty as Ace does not equate to "Enel is equal in power to Ace". Having a flying ship where you can blow up enemy ships with lightning from range would make one exceedingly deadly on the seas even if said person wasn't Yonko level or Commander level or whatever. We know that bounties encompass far beyond your raw power level. So not only is having a similar bounty to Ace a shotty argument for scaling him to Ace, that's a vague unquantifiable possibility that we cannot even confirm would be true.

Enel is stated by the new magazine to have one of the most powerful devil fruits, even among logias, scaling him at least relative to the other 6 logias who would scale to Whitebeard.

All this means inherently is that the lightning fruit is stronger than many of the fruits and not that it's in the same tier as WB's fruit. I'd also be curious about the further context of the databook before I comment more regarding that statement.

Enel is stated to have one of the few "invincible" devil fruits. At that point the Straw Hats have seen 3 other logias (one of them scaling to WB), and Robin was in an organization with one of them. Never said that before.

What I said above really applies here as well, and furthermore you acknowledge in this same point that not all "invincible" fruits scale to WB. So it being "invincible" is not inherent grounds of scaling to WB's fruit.

Enel has well established scaling and feats prior to that, like "being omnipotent compared to a handful of fodder tier 7s" and "one shotting every tier 7 character that comes his way", or "utilizing focused attacks to kill only specific people being calced".

Unquantifiably above Small City level is not the same as good consistent support for having the power to destroy the Moon twice. But I address this notion in my response to Snook, so I won't repeat myself.

On top of that, this is not a calculation of Enel. This is a calculation of the durability of the tools the Space Pirates used for their feats. Enel just scales to that. Several times.

I address this misunderstanding of my argument in my post to Snook.

"I think you can make a case that Enel jumping from tier 7 to tier 5 randomly could be potentially narrative breaking when prodigies like Luffy are going from like City level to Mountain/Island level in 2 years"
Luffy went from mountain to damn near multi cont in a week. This is nothing.
And the gap between tiers is not a counter for growth as it just depends on whatever our damn fancalcs mark it as. One day it could be "city to moon", next day it can be "large mountain to country".

Luffy is Multi-Con with a single massive amped attack, he went from mountain to country in like a week. Megatons to Teratons is a million times jump over a week, Luffy would need to add that level of power onto himself a million more times to jump into Exatons, or millions of weeks aka hundreds of years.

What you said is just saying "We mark Enel at small city for scaling above a bunch of fodder. I think him scaling to higher end feats is an outlier."
That's the same shit as before when we had Whitebeard at mountain level for scaling above the likes of goofballs like Perospero, or Mihawk at mountain for scaling above Cracker.

If WB's only scaling was to 7-A, and then he had a single calc he could scale to that's 5-C, then yes, that would likely warrant due discussion over the consistency of such scaling. But I don't want to humor whataboutisms with make believe scenarios, so I won't dwell on this.

Edit: I likely won't be able to respond to any large posts tomorrow, but don't let me hold up any discussion.

 

[KingTempest]

Last I checked, bounties aren't inherently valid as DBZ style power levels. Furthermore, possessing a vague possibility of obtaining the same Bounty as Ace does not equate to "Enel is equal in power to Ace". Having a flying ship where you can blow up enemy ships with lightning from range would make one exceedingly deadly on the seas even if said person wasn't Yonko level or Commander level or whatever. We know that bounties encompass far beyond your raw power level. So not only is having a similar bounty to Ace a shotty argument for scaling him to Ace, that's a vague unquantifiable possibility that we cannot even confirm would be true.

Tackled this already

Enel was stated to have the possibility to have a bounty of the same as Ace if he touched the Blue Sea (who scales to Whitebeard) because of how troublesome his power is, and that the only reason they survived is cause Luffy's devil fruit pulled through. Enel isn't important. The large sum of his bounty would've been pointed towards his power, throwing him on the upper echelons of power.
"Other people have far higher bounties" yonko commanders and yonko who have status there as well. Ace got a 100m bounty just for his heritage.

All this means inherently is that the lightning fruit is stronger than many of the fruits and not that it's in the same tier as WB's fruit. I'd also be curious about the further context of the databook before I comment more regarding that statement.

It blatantly says it's one of the more powerful devil fruits, even among logias. We know of 13 logia fruits and 6 of them scale to Whitebeard.
He'd scale to the upper echelons of the logia fruits, the most powerful fruits in the series.
There is no further context.

What I said above really applies here as well, and furthermore you acknowledge in this same point that not all "invincible" fruits scale to WB. So it being "invincible" is not inherent grounds of scaling to WB's fruit.

Nobody stated that at all, nor did I ever acknowledge that. I said he has one of the strongest fruits in the series, rivaling the 6 dudes who have power near Whitebeard's capabilities.

Unquantifiably above Small City level is not the same as good consistent support for having the power to destroy the Moon twice. But I address this notion in my response to Snook, so I won't repeat myself.

Unquantifiably above Small City level is not a restrictor against having moon level when everybody you face that's small city level is one shot by your attacks.

I address this misunderstanding of my argument in my post to Snook.


Luffy is Multi-Con with a single massive amped attack, he went from mountain to country in like a week. Megatons to Teratons is a million times jump over a week, Luffy would need to add that level of power onto himself a million more times to jump into Exatons, or millions of weeks aka hundreds of years.


If WB's only scaling was to 7-A, and then he had a single calc he could scale to that's 5-C, then yes, that would likely warrant due discussion over the consistency of such scaling. But I don't want to humor whataboutisms with make believe scenarios, so I won't dwell on this.

This argument is ass, which I already stated.

The values that we put characters is not a counter to higher scaling. "We calced them to be small city once then we calced them to be country level later, so here's the in canon gap we have them as.

That isn't the reality of the situation.

Also, Luffy isn't Multi-Cont with a single massive amped attack. He's Multi-Cont up to Small Planet with a single massive amped attack.

 

[KingTempest]

Arc fighting the avengers

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Tackled this already

Respectfully, copy pasting a point I responded to doesn't aid in furthering the discussion and just leads to a chain of "I already addressed that". So, I'll just assume we are agreeing to disagree here, which is okay.

It blatantly says it's one of the more powerful devil fruits, even among logias. We know of 13 logia fruits and 6 of them scale to Whitebeard.
He'd scale to the upper echelons of the logia fruits, the most powerful fruits in the series.
There is no further context.

The reader seeing 13 logia =/= there only being 13 logia in existence. He can have a super powerful logia and be weaker than WB level, not being WB level does not contradict that statement.

Nobody stated that at all, nor did I ever acknowledge that. I said he has one of the strongest fruits in the series, rivaling the 6 dudes who have power near Whitebeard's capabilities.

Can you substantiate your leap in logic? Because as I've said, merely having a super strong fruit is not the same as being relative to WB.

Unquantifiably above Small City level is not a restrictor against having moon level when everybody you face that's small city level is one shot by your attacks.

It is not an inherent restriction; however, we have standards that we can abide by to determine where we set those bounds. And the fact remains, Enel has no accepted feats or scaling that supports the 5-C AP scaling from a single calc that he'd get.

Also, Luffy isn't Multi-Cont with a single massive amped attack. He's Multi-Cont up to Small Planet with a single massive amped attack.

Again single attack, and uh I don't see Low 5-B on his profile, if you can link me a thread where Low 5-B Luffy got accepted that'd be great.

 

[KingTempest]

The reader seeing 13 logia =/= there only being 13 logia in existence. He can have a super powerful logia and be weaker than WB level, not being WB level does not contradict that statement.

Can you substantiate your leap in logic? Because as I've said, merely having a super strong fruit is not the same as being relative to WB.

"This fruit is one of the strongest among logias, the class with not that many fruits. We see half the group have powers on this tier, he should be relative to half the powers on this tier."

Most of the people of that class have scaling to Whitebeard. He has one of the strongest devil fruits in that class. He scales to the people who are relative to Whitebeard.

It is not an inherent restriction; however, we have standards that we can abide by to determine where we set those bounds. And the fact remains, Enel has no accepted feats or scaling that supports the 5-C AP scaling from a single calc that he'd get.

Then it's being pushed here then

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

"This fruit is one of the strongest among logias, the class with not that many fruits. We see half the group have powers on this tier, he should be relative to half the powers on this tier."

Most of the people of that class have scaling to Whitebeard. He has one of the strongest devil fruits in that class. He scales to the people who are relative to Whitebeard.

Most inherently does not entail all, so again, that doesn't not entail Enel as among that class without further proof. Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated claim. The logia we have seen is a bit skewed with some selection bias, as of course in the story as it progresses we are going to see more and more powerful fruits, and there is less of a reason for Oda to show an irrelevant/fodder fruit as we go on, but again "we've seen 13 fruits" =/= "there are only 13 logia". So, there is even less of a reason to assume that grants Enel WB level power. And I believe we have due reason to doubt this atm when one of Enel's strongest attacks that requires him to charge up energy (Raigo) is impressive for destroying a country. Something, narratively speaking, is far below what WB is hyped as.

 

[KingTempest]

Most inherently does not entail all, so again, that doesn't not entail Enel as among that class without further proof. Otherwise it's just an unsubstantiated claim. The logia we have seen is a bit skewed with some selection bias, as of course in the story as it progresses we are going to see more and more powerful fruits, and there is less of a reason for Oda to show an irrelevant/fodder fruit as we go on, but again "we've seen 13 fruits" =/= "there are only 13 logia". So, there is even less of a reason to assume that grants Enel WB level power. And I believe we have due reason to doubt this atm when one of Enel's strongest attacks that requires him to charge up energy (Raigo) is impressive for destroying a country. Something, narratively speaking, is far below what WB is hyped as.

I'm sorry but what?

"Entail as among that class"?

Do you mean if Enel is considered a logia? Because he is a logia. He was stated by like 10 sources to be a logia, works the exact same as a logia, and is easily shown to be a logia type devil fruit.

The point is that Enel is considered one of the most powerful in the most powerful class. He would scale to the others in that class, who all scale around the level of WB's fruit

Raigo is not Enel's attack. It's the arc maxim's attack that provides large range AOE.
Enel has a very focused devil fruit that lets him destroy easily in small ranges, needing a large range technique in order to destroy a big island easily. You of all people should know AP ≠ DC.

On top of that, WB was stated to destroy the world and was stated to be able to sink islands. Is him being able to sink an island now narratively less than his destroy the world statement?

 

[KingTempest]

Edit: talked on discord about the "is enel a logia". he not saying he not

 

[Ryuga21]

How do we concretely know that the durability of the technological material that Enel damaged scales to the explosion AP?

 

[KingTempest]

How do we concretely know that the durability of the technological material that Enel damaged scales to the explosion AP?

It doesn't. I calced the durability of the material of the tools they used from the explosion. it's less than a percent of the yield of the explosion

 

[Ryuga21]

Well, the minks used technology to make explosions on the moon in the excavation project. I just think that due to the limitations of the strips, it's not very clear how the explosions are made. It's actually not clear if these explosions were even made by the excavation machines that Enel destroyed, or whether the minks were using remote explosives to open craters on the moon. And it is beyond our knowledge whether they were close or not within the range of the explosions.

 

[KingTempest]

Well, the minks used technology to make explosions on the moon in the excavation project. I just think that due to the limitations of the strips, it's not very clear how the explosions are made. It's actually not clear if these explosions were even made by the excavation machines that Enel destroyed, or whether the minks were using remote explosives to open craters on the moon. And it is beyond our knowledge whether they were close or not within the range of the explosions.

They weren't minks, they were space pirates.
They used the tools that were literally right above the craters to do so.
This is calculating the durability of the metal that was right above the craters which would've taken the shockwave from the explosion, which enel destroyed.

 

[Damage3245]

Based on Arc7Kuroi's earlier summary and his responses, I'm currently more in favor of Enel scaling to 5-C being treated as an Outlier.

Multiple characters from Skypiea such as Sanji, Zoro, Wyper, etc. could survive and endure Enel's attacks. It doesn't seem substantiated for Enel to hold himself back by a trillion times when fighting them.