One Piece: Combined Attacks but we're removing them.

[GodlyCharmander]

Combined Attack Multipliers are currently help together by ducktape and some sticks. It's getting abused, and when something this iffy is being abused to this extent, I believe opening a new debate on it is best. I will begin by stating a counterargument for our current interpretation. From easiest to hardest to counter. It was accepted here.

Example 3
"36, 72, 108" pound ho.

This is the easiest to address because it's quite literally just a naming for the attack, the closer it is to Zoro's current max strength, the higher the number is. It acts only as a support evidence, and it does not prove definitely that any limb multipliers are in place.

Furthermore, the pound cannon value cannot be used to prove one multiplier but at the same time ignoring the fact that Post Timeskip Zoro's Pound Cannon is multiplied by a factor of 10. (Even less going by the additional evidence's logic). We don't consider the latter, thus, we cannot consider the former. It's either linear or not, there is no in-between. I believe I can safely say this evidence, even as a support, is not really useful for proving number of limbs are a factor in strength. Same can be said about the additional evidence which rely on the same logic.

There is no "It wouldn't work to measure strength linearly between the keys, but it can be measured linearly for individual limbs." That is the worst case of double standards I've seen in the last 24 hours.

Example 2
Luffy destroys the spear part of a spear-bomb, and says Krieg's power is halved.

First, Krieg himself doubts this statement in the very panel it's stated. Second, this does not act as evidence to number limbs = double the force, because the force of the bomb is not dependent on the spear, and the strength of Krieg's swing isn't halved by not having a piece of metal at the end of the stick.

What Luffy likely meant, is that Krieg's strength, as in, means to harm him, are now halved. He could either stab, or blow Luffy up, but now he can't do the former, thus, halving his limited arsenal (on his hand). It doesn't half literal force, impact, explosion, or swinging strength. This example does not do anything for the combined attack argument, and honestly couldn't even be supportive.


Example 1
Truly the most difficult evidence to debunk, it's literally stating that removing one of Oars limbs will result in a decrease in strength, I really believe I cannot fully debunk it. There is some logical problems with this, however. Taking out one of Oars' arms wouldn't half his strength at all, actually. He still have 3 other very healthy limbs which he could use to attack, two of which are not affected by this in any way.

Oars knows how to knee, kick, and most importantly for the purposes of this thread, Oars knows how to stomp. Thus, not halving his strength like Chopper said it would, Oars and Moria could still combine their foot. So Chopper was wrong? No, I believe there is a plausible explanation for this.

In fact, Chopper referring to Oars overall strength as exclusively the bazooka attack (which he used it once) makes no sense, the gang was getting mollywhopped by regular attacks from Oars left and right. Chopper's statement would have no weight, because even though he can't do 2x attacks, he still is effectively as strong as he has been the entire battle, save for a singular move. So what was Chopper talking about? A much plausible interpretation of that quote is Oars' battle strength dropping by about half, as in, the same way Krieg's weapon had it's power "cut by half". It's options to attack, with his arms disabled, effectively half of Oars body is useless for any sort of attack, save for kicks, but that is still 50% of your body (much longer arms) unable to counter any sort of attack, thus, "cutting Oars effective Strength by half", rather than the force behind his attacks, which again wouldn't make any sort of sense, or weight to say, because non-bazooka attacks are already too much.



Remember, this thread intends to reopen the discussion, you can defend this multiplier, you can add further justification as to why it's not correct. Just be civil, and discuss.

 

[speedster352]

Looks fine I agree with the op

 

[Damage3245]

I'll await to see what other arguments are made, but so far I'm leaning in favor of the OP.

The Don Krieg example didn't sit right with me in the first place.

 

[Nierre]

Following.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I fully agree with removing them.
I'd like to mention that if using multiple limbs or something would be a multiplier in One Piece why would anyone ever use fight with only one hand?
Is Brook utterly inept where he just uses one arm for his fights, surely he'd just go for stabs with 2 arms to double his strength there right? (This fight is even more relevant since it's from the same arc as Example 1, you'd think someone would comment "Hey why are using an objectively weaker style")
And it's not like later on he changes his style so yah

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I fully agree with removing them.
I'd like to mention that if using multiple limbs or something would be a multiplier in One Piece why would anyone ever use fight with only one hand?
Is Brook utterly inept where he just uses one arm for his fights, surely he'd just go for stabs with 2 arms to double his strength there right? (This fight is even more relevant since it's from the same arc as Example 1, you'd think someone would comment "Hey why are using an objectively weaker style")
And it's not like later on he changes his style so yah

Everyone would min-max to become Killer B if this was true.

 

[SnookB]

I don't know how the Don Krieg thing was accepted- It's obviously Luffy just saying things.
The only instances I agree with an attack multiplier is with Luffy's two handed attacks because they're literally two hits of Luffy's base value (which is usually one-handed) at once, and Doflamingo's strings for obvious reasons.
Everything else is iffy.
Using more swords doesn't equate to a "multiplication", and barrages (Like Shigan Madara) shouldn't even be considered since they're more or less done in succession rather than at once. Always assuming more of a thing is a multiplier is definitely abusing it.

 

[Tllmbrg]

The only instances I agree with an attack multiplier is with Luffy's two handed attacks because they're literally two hits of Luffy's base value (which is usually one-handed) at once, and Doflamingo's strings for obvious reasons.

Tbf logically hitting someone with your two arms isn't a multiplier either, they're just getting two attacks of equal value (Which I imagine against people who don't just outclass him would hurt plenty since you're just taking 2 hits at once) and I have my issues with Donflamingo's strings
But the latter isn't really relevant to this thread so I'll keep that for a later date

 

[SnookB]

Tbf logically hitting someone with your two arms isn't a multiplier either, they're just getting two attacks of equal value (Which I imagine against people who don't just outclass him would hurt plenty since you're just taking 2 hits at once)

Most of Luffy's ratings come from single-handed attacks. His two-handed ones are always both hands hitting at the same time. There are also instaces where his single-handed attacks don't worry on an opponent but his two-handed ones do. They always hit far harder, and if his single-punch has a value, then two at once should have the combined of 2 hits simultaneously.
This isn't to be confused with attacks like Gatling Gun where he does use two hands but punches consecutively instead of throwing both fists out at once.

Like I said- I partially agree. "More" doesn't always equate to more of the same value, but there are obvious exceptions.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I agree with the points you made for examples 3 and 2, but for example 1 with oars, Occam’s Razor far favors that “half strength” just means half AP rather than the convoluted line of reasoning you put forth. Although if Chopper is the one making the claim, questioning the validity of the source on the matter is still valid, as there would need to be some indication that Chopper is a reliable source on the matter.

That being said, I think Tllm makes a pragmatically sound point in that any character with two arms that only attacks with one would suffer from PIS, and by extension we’d have a lot of plain stupid characters. Not exactly a defeater to the arm multiplier tho, as it can just be argued that the characters are unaware/ignorant.

Also, thinking more on example 1, using the name of Zoro’s attacks to support any multiplier arguably falls under a naming fallacy as well. Although, I know some of Zoro’s attacks he “combines” his sword and overlays the point of impact (example that comes to mind is how he crosses his swords when he fights Mihawk in the beginning of the series). So in instances like that where he’s essentially he’s empowering one sword by striking the back of it with another sword, I can see a case for that being a power combination of his singular armed attacks. Although that seems to be built on a bit of a shaky foundation admittedly.

 

[SnookB]

I fully agree with removing them.
I'd like to mention that if using multiple limbs or something would be a multiplier in One Piece why would anyone ever use fight with only one hand?
Is Brook utterly inept where he just uses one arm for his fights, surely he'd just go for stabs with 2 arms to double his strength there right? (This fight is even more relevant since it's from the same arc as Example 1, you'd think someone would comment "Hey why are using an objectively weaker style")
And it's not like later on he changes his style so yah

I get where you're coming from, but the issue with this is- Brook acknowledges his "style" is inferior to a more strength based one like Ryuma's/Zoro's. It isn't that he forgets to use two arms or anything, it's that his sword-style isn't reliant on strength multiplication to begin with.
Using him as an example is a bit flawed imo. The fact that he didn't adopt Goken after saying it's more powerful shows that he just doesn't care about the strength based aspect, or it wouldn't work with his own sword style.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is fine IMO

 

[Tllmbrg]

I get where you're coming from, but the issue with this is- Brook acknowledges his "style" is inferior to a more strength based one like Ryuma's/Zoro's. It isn't that he forgets to use two arms or anything, it's that his sword-style isn't reliant on strength multiplication to begin with.
Using him as an example is a bit flawed imo. The fact that he didn't adopt Goken after saying it's more powerful shows that he just doesn't care about the strength based aspect, or it wouldn't work with his own sword style.

Maybe Brook wasn't the best example but the logic should still apply to anyone else who actually fights in melee
Why doesn't Hakuba use two hands for slashing when his thing is just wanting to murder people, why with Hajrudin it wasn't even noted that his strength got caught in half when his arm was ****** up.
Heck if amount of limbs is a multiplier wouldn't Nico Robin be a massive power house considering her devil fruit?

 

[KingTempest]

Me personally, I don't care if you remove example 3 and 2 and make it only for Oars and Luffy, but you're not trying to do that, you're trying to remove it for everybody altogether. And that's where my issue lies.

And I'm pissed because everyone ignored everything I said in the thread, where I said we need to pay close attention and not hand it out for everything, specifically saying that things like gatling attacks shouldn't count.

And the limbs still need to be "attacking together" for this to apply, right? So Gomu Gomu no Bazooka would get a multiplier while Gatling wouldn't

Yeah this. Back to back attacks wouldn’t count unless they have a statement of being superior to the double limbed one

But no, it's the multiplier's fault instead of those who don't look at it regularly.

But whatever. Here I go.

Example 1
Truly the most difficult evidence to debunk, it's literally stating that removing one of Oars limbs will result in a decrease in strength, I really believe I cannot fully debunk it. There is some logical problems with this, however. Taking out one of Oars' arms wouldn't half his strength at all, actually. He still have 3 other very healthy limbs which he could use to attack, two of which are not affected by this in any way.

Oars knows how to knee, kick, and most importantly for the purposes of this thread, Oars knows how to stomp. Thus, not halving his strength like Chopper said it would, Oars and Moria could still combine their foot. So Chopper was wrong? No, I believe there is a plausible explanation for this.

In fact, Chopper referring to Oars overall strength as exclusively the bazooka attack (which he used it once) makes no sense, the gang was getting mollywhopped by regular attacks from Oars left and right. Chopper's statement would have no weight, because even though he can't do 2x attacks, he still is effectively as strong as he has been the entire battle, save for a singular move. So what was Chopper talking about? A much plausible interpretation of that quote is Oars' battle strength dropping by about half, as in, the same way Krieg's weapon had it's power "cut by half". It's options to attack, with his arms disabled, effectively half of Oars body is useless for any sort of attack, save for kicks, but that is still 50% of your body (much longer arms) unable to counter any sort of attack, thus, "cutting Oars effective Strength by half", rather than the force behind his attacks, which again wouldn't make any sort of sense, or weight to say, because non-bazooka attacks are already too much.

If you wanted to debunk this shit then you should've used more than "shoulds", and I'm disappointed in those who responded with flimsy ass arguments. I'll get to yall later.

First of all, Oars is based off of Luffy, and Luffy never uses both of his feet AND his hands at the same time. Luffy barely uses his feet at all, and that isn't something he uses over and over. Luffy's strongest techniques are the ones where he applies both of his arms, and because they had the opportunity to destroy one of Oars' artificial limbs. It's stated in the magazines that Luffy primarily uses his hands for combos and such, shown by how he has a plethora of hand moves but deadass like 2 or 3 leg moves.
Second of all, Oars' strongest attack was his Bazooka, and that was the attack that he spammed plus it was his strongest move. Like I said above, they had the opportunity to negate that shit. This is why when Luffy was about to hit him with the bazooka, he tried to retaliate with his own, and he couldn't because they disabled his arm.
Third of all, your "In fact, Chopper referring to Oars overall strength as exclusively the bazooka attack (which he used it once) makes no sense" is the most blatant ignoring of context I've seen all year. The move he used right before the statement of halved power is his Bazooka.
Fourth of all, "Save for a single move". Gatling gun, which he used to take out both Chopper and Sanji.
Fifth of all, here's the thing. You're not supposed to send scans without context.
"The gang was still getting mollywhopped by regular attacks from Oars left and right" And they all got right the **** back up.
You seem to forget that Oars is stronger than every single person there by a vast amount, even without his combined attacks. So this point is just completely useless.
This is like saying that if this was for ******* Oden or something, Oden using 1 on fodder is dumb because he's capable of using 2 swords, when they're all drastically weaker than him. On top of that, these guys were all fatigued before the fight even started
Sixth of all, it sounds like you don't understand why they deleted his arm, so I'll explain it.
Oars tries to use a Bazooka which Sanji countered, and it produced a large ass shockwave.
The arm he was using was fake. Because of that, they noticed they had an opportunity to cut his shit off, which they did, and because of that, they changed the game.

 

[Kachon123]

Leaning towards agreeing with the OP.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Fully agree

 

[KingTempest]

I fully agree with removing them.
I'd like to mention that if using multiple limbs or something would be a multiplier in One Piece why would anyone ever use fight with only one hand?
Is Brook utterly inept where he just uses one arm for his fights, surely he'd just go for stabs with 2 arms to double his strength there right? (This fight is even more relevant since it's from the same arc as Example 1, you'd think someone would comment "Hey why are using an objectively weaker style")
And it's not like later on he changes his style so yah

Let's ignore narrative significance.

Brook is a fencer who's technique is based on speed. Him swinging left and right with one sword is because that's the technique he was taught and that's what he stayed with as part of his fighting style.

A lot of people use Meito, and they try not to use multiple weapons if they don't have multiple swords of good quality or else they'd break, which is why Zoro couldn't use Santoryu to the best of his ability because his swords weren't up to par with his force.

Some people use the strength of their whole body in 1 blade, like Zoro does with Shishi Sonson or Rayleigh's fighting style where he uses 2 arms. Some people are capable of emitting more force in 1 than they can in 2. Some people use 1 limb because it's easier to maneuver.

So no, not everything is about power.

Everyone would min-max to become Killer B if this was true.

People can barely use 1 sword efficiently and you want them to use shit throughout their body.

That being said, I think Tllm makes a pragmatically sound point in that any character with two arms that only attacks with one would suffer from PIS, and by extension we’d have a lot of plain stupid characters. Not exactly a defeater to the arm multiplier tho, as it can just be argued that the characters are unaware/ignorant.

This isn't PIS, this is ignoring that there's more to a fight than strength.
People like Brook, Tashigi, Hakuba, and more use 1 hand and 1 sword to minimize force but to maximize speed. Brook uses Iaido and Fencing,

Also, thinking more on example 1, using the name of Zoro’s attacks to support any multiplier arguably falls under a naming fallacy as well. Although, I know some of Zoro’s attacks he “combines” his sword and overlays the point of impact (example that comes to mind is how he crosses his swords when he fights Mihawk in the beginning of the series). So in instances like that where he’s essentially he’s empowering one sword by striking the back of it with another sword, I can see a case for that being a power combination of his singular armed attacks. Although that seems to be built on a bit of a shaky foundation admittedly.

The basis on this wasn't just the names of his moves. It was that Zoro doubled the value when alongside someone of equal strength.

 

[KingTempest]

Why doesn't Hakuba use two hands for slashing when his thing is just wanting to murder people

Because he uses Juken, a sword style where speed is the primary focus, and it's much easier to swing shit around with 1 hand than with 2.

Why do u think people use knives with 1 hand to maximize speed and efficiency.

why with Hajrudin it wasn't even noted that his strength got caught in half when his arm was ****** up.

Surface area. Machvise fit on 1 hand.
Special move, using 1 hand with the force of your whole body

Heck if amount of limbs is a multiplier wouldn't Nico Robin be a massive power house considering her devil fruit?

It is.
We just don't use it because the people on this site bitch about massive amps.
Which is why we lowballed the pill multiplier.

 

[SnookB]

Which is why we lowballed the pill multiplier.

Everybody scared of 6A Hody

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The basis on this wasn't just the names of his moves. It was that Zoro doubled the value when alongside someone of equal strength.

Aka the name.

This isn't PIS, this is ignoring that there's more to a fight than strength.
People like Brook, Tashigi, Hakuba, and more use 1 hand and 1 sword to minimize force but to maximize speed. Brook uses Iaido and Fencing,

Glad you brought that up, that’s a good point

 

[Tllmbrg]

A lot of people use Meito, and they try not to use multiple weapons if they don't have multiple swords of good quality or else they'd break, which is why Zoro couldn't use Santoryu to the best of his ability because his swords weren't up to par with his force.

This doesn't really prove anything, just that people won't use subpar weapons
Also yah he can't use his full strength with weapons that would break under the pressure, again this doesn't prove anything

Some people use the strength of their whole body in 1 blade, like Zoro does with Shishi Sonson or Rayleigh's fighting style where he uses 2 arms. Some people are capable of emitting more force in 1 than they can in 2. Some people use 1 limb because it's easier to maneuver.

So no, not everything is about power.

So some people just hit stronger with one arm because reasons?
Like I'm trying to follow but from what I'm reading you're saying people can just apply the multiplier through a single weapon or limb anyways?
So is the argument is that some people can just amp their physicals at any moment???

This isn't PIS, this is ignoring that there's more to a fight than strength.
People like Brook, Tashigi, Hakuba, and more use 1 hand and 1 sword to minimize force but to maximize speed. Brook uses Iaido and Fencing,

Brook was already discussed but for the others I fail to see why they won't just take a basically free boost for AP lol

Because he uses Juken, a sword style where speed is the primary focus, and it's much easier to swing shit around with 1 hand than with 2.

Why do u think people use knives with 1 hand to maximize speed and efficiency.

This is still a dumb decision, the guy is absurdly fast anyways, you telling me a sword genius can't figure quick slashes with two hands?
Unless the guy just loses an insane amount of speed in what world is it better to fork over an x2 buff to your attack (Which is not minor at all) over being slower to an unknown degree?

Surface area. Machvise fit on 1 hand.
Special move, using 1 hand with the force of your whole body

Again can people just bust the multiplier whenever?
Also my question wasn't why he didn't two hand him (Although he could've just held his hands together or something for one punch) my question was why in universe it wasn't ever addressed?

The basis on this wasn't just the names of his moves. It was that Zoro doubled the value when alongside someone of equal strength.

It still can easily argued as a naming scheme thing

It is.
We just don't use it because the people on this site bitch about massive amps.
Which is why we lowballed the pill multiplier.

So why doesn't Robin just fodderize anyone who's even anywhere near her strength wise, her amp would be ridiculous.
She's not considered weak yet she's also nowhere the top of her crew so why when she can easily in theory boost the most?


In general you'd think a concept like this would not be mentioned so half hazardly throughout a story, like other actual buffs like Gears and Diable Jambe get a direct explanation for how they work while here you need to take several things that are frankly unrelated to each other to make a case

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm ok with completely abolishing this whole arm multiplier situation

Bazooka still being 2x amp is sorta ok IMO tho considering that it's kinda combining the power of two hands into one, that's the idea, but even then, I'm ok with abolishing it if we want

 

[KingTempest]

This doesn't really prove anything, just that people won't use subpar weapons
Also yah he can't use his full strength with weapons that would break under the pressure, again this doesn't prove anything

People can't use subpar weapons so they don't use those techniques.

So some people just hit stronger with one arm because reasons?
Like I'm trying to follow but from what I'm reading you're saying people can just apply the multiplier through a single weapon or limb anyways?
So is the argument is that some people can just amp their physicals at any moment???

Who is bringing up a multiplier right now.
I said the dude who can swing while visibly using his entire body to swing isn't getting a multiplier for using 2 hands.

Brook was already discussed but for the others I fail to see why they won't just take a basically free boost for AP lol

Same reasons for them.

This is still a dumb decision, the guy is absurdly fast anyways, you telling me a sword genius can't figure quick slashes with two hands?
Unless the guy just loses an insane amount of speed in what world is it better to fork over an x2 buff to your attack (Which is not minor at all) over being slower to an unknown degree?

Do you know why he's fast? Because of that sword style.
Like I don't understand why people can't comprehend that other stats depend on more than just speed.

Again can people just bust the multiplier whenever?

No, because like I said in other threads, using 2 hands for 1 weapon doesn't show any 2x boost in strength.

Also my question wasn't why he didn't two hand him (Although he could've just held his hands together or something for one punch) my question was why in universe it wasn't ever addressed?

You didn't read that his arm didn't work?

It still can easily argued as a naming scheme thing

So you gonna ignore my point? Alright.

So why doesn't Robin just fodderize anyone who's even anywhere near her strength wise, her amp would be ridiculous.
She's not considered weak yet she's also nowhere the top of her crew so why when she can easily in theory boost the most?

You do realize that she uses her strongest moves against people that the top tiers of the crew would fodderize right?
She used her strongest shit on Diamante, she wasn't able to touch Monet. Everybody she fought she either stomped them or got stomped.

In general you'd think a concept like this would not be mentioned so half hazardly throughout a story, like other actual buffs like Gears and Diable Jambe get a direct explanation for how they work while here you need to take several things that are frankly unrelated to each other to make a case

Diable Jambe's heat dura neg shit was spoken about once.
Asura never got an explanation i nthe manga.
The gears are used in every Luffy fight.

All because something is explained a small amount of times doesn't make it less credible.

 

[Tllmbrg]

People can't use subpar weapons so they don't use those techniques.

Who is bringing up a multiplier right now.
I said the dude who can swing while visibly using his entire body to swing isn't getting a multiplier for using 2 hands.

So this again proves nothing, literally what was your point with the second one
And first one again proves nothing

Do you know why he's fast? Because of that sword style.
Like I don't understand why people can't comprehend that other stats depend on more than just speed.

What
How is him running around the arena dicing people and basically blitzing everyone related to his style?
If he puts two hands on his sword does he suddenly run slower, does he now move his entire body slower, do his bloody reactions become slower?

You didn't read that his arm didn't work?

Again I'm not asking why he didn't use two arms, I'm asking why it wasn't ever ******* noted that him having one functional arm cuts his strength in half

So you gonna ignore my point? Alright.

Yes, because your point doesn't prove anything
How is him giving a new name for a combined attack with someone he views as equal supports it being a literal multiplier more than it just being a naming convention?

Diable Jambe's heat dura neg shit was spoken about once.
Asura never got an explanation i nthe manga.
The gears are used in every Luffy fight.

You notice how all of this are mechanics for 1 character right?
I think a universal strength mechanic that can apply to basically everyone should have more direct reference to outside a doctor saying that if you cut a giant's arm his strength gets cut in half or the attack names of a dude (Also Asura shouldn't be a definite multiplier imo, also also if DJ is dura neg why does Sanji's page lists his rating as higher with it?)

 

[KingTempest]

So this again proves nothing, literally what was your point with the second one
And first one again proves nothing

I'm gonna say this in an easy to understand way.
The multiplier applies for characters who use only their arms to attack. Not their waist. Not their chest. Their arms.
Somebody turning their entire body means that they aren't just using 1 arm to attack (which can be multiplied by 2), but they're using the force of their entire body.
Using 2 hands for a 2x multiplier means using the force of only a hand produces only 1x the force, and 2 hands produces 2x the force.

Using the force of your entire body and 1 hand needs something like a whole other body to complement the force of the other hand if you want it to be a multiplier.
Unfortunately, he turns his entire body.

What
How is him running around the arena dicing people and basically blitzing everyone related to his style?
If he puts two hands on his sword does he suddenly run slower, does he now move his entire body slower, do his bloody reactions become slower?

So you missed the knife example?
He can hit more efficiently.
Efficiency is a big factor in how people fight, and it can decide their freedom or restrictions in movement.
Go grab a stick and run around trying to shank trees with 1 hand, then try it with 2 hands on the same stick. You'll see the difference.

Again I'm not asking why he didn't use two arms, I'm asking why it wasn't ever ******* noted that him having one functional arm cuts his strength in half

IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE MENTIONED

Your argument is "they didn't say anything here so it's not the case".

Armament Haki was stated to blatantly resist heat once. Do we need a statement against EVERY DAMN HEAT ATTACK for it to apply?
You're overly strict on blatant statements. You're arguing a personal preference.

You notice how all of this are mechanics for 1 character right?
I think a universal strength mechanic that can apply to basically everyone should have more direct reference to outside a doctor saying that if you cut a giant's arm his strength gets cut in half or the attack names of a dude

YOU think.

A person who studies people saying that a mechanic raises the potency of an attack is how the characters will be treated.

Chopper also spoke about straightening his spine lets him take more force and how that's for everybody. Do we need more statements of that as well?

(Also Asura shouldn't be a definite multiplier imo, also also if DJ is dura neg why does Sanji's page lists his rating as higher with it?)

Because it's dura neg with increased force as well. You know things can be dura neg and have force right?

 

[The_Pink_God]

Tllmbrg makes the most sense for me, although I will stay neutral on Example 1 of whether using it to not

 

[Axxtentacle]

Durability Negation isn't a power itself, really. It's something abilities have. There's still force behind an explosion that you spawn inside someone's heart, but it doesn't really matter because it's negating their durability by hitting a weak point. You're not actually powernulling someone's physically durability just because you have something that we qualify as Durability Negation.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

why does Sanji's page lists his rating as higher with it?

Things can have force and also be dura neg; the two aren’t mutually exclusive

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'm gonna say this in an easy to understand way.
The multiplier applies for characters who use only their arms to attack. Not their waist. Not their chest. Their arms.
Somebody turning their entire body means that they aren't just using 1 arm to attack (which can be multiplied by 2), but they're using the force of their entire body.
Using 2 hands for a 2x multiplier means using the force of only a hand produces only 1x the force, and 2 hands produces 2x the force.

Okay

So you missed the knife example?
He can hit more efficiently.
Efficiency is a big factor in how people fight, and it can decide their freedom or restrictions in movement.
Go grab a stick and run around trying to shank trees with 1 hand, then try it with 2 hands on the same stick. You'll see the difference.

If I tried stabbing someone with 1 hand vs 2 hands the 2 hands attempt would be more successful, again unless somehow putting two hand on the handle just ***** his speed to an insane degree he should be able to just use his sword with two hands just fine with a strength boost.

IT DOESN'T NEED TO BE MENTIONED

Your argument is "they didn't say anything here so it's not the case".

Armament Haki was stated to blatantly resist heat once. Do we need a statement against EVERY DAMN HEAT ATTACK for it to apply?
You're overly strict on blatant statements. You're arguing a personal preference.

You're trying to argue a universal multiplier mechanic, yes I think it should have more than a few scattered sorta proving it statements
As for the Haki no, since from what I read on the page it's just a character going "Hey this thing allowed me to do X" which is cut and clear.
Chopper's thing meanwhile as shown by Charmander can viewed in a different way than a literal multiplier

YOU think.

A person who studies people saying that a mechanic raises the potency of an attack is how the characters will be treated.

Chopper also spoke about straightening his spine lets him take more force and how that's for everybody. Do we need more statements of that as well?

Yes I think.
Basically a single statement should not be enough for something so major, also personally I view Chopper's statement as being about how many attacks Oars can send anyways rather than his strength literally being halved
Also do we use the spine thing for a multiplier, if not then this doesn't matter as an example

 

[KingTempest]

Okay

If I tried stabbing someone with 1 hand vs 2 hands the 2 hands attempt would be more successful, again unless somehow putting two hand on the handle just ***** his speed to an insane degree he should be able to just use his sword with two hands just fine with a strength boost.

The 2 hand attempt would be more successful because more force would be applied when striking with 2 hands, but the 1 hand approach is better if you're trying to swing easier or in motion.

You're trying to argue a universal multiplier mechanic, yes I think it should have more than a few scattered sorta proving it statements
As for the Haki no, since from what I read on the page it's just a character going "Hey this thing allowed me to do X" which is cut and clear.
Chopper's thing meanwhile as shown by Charmander can viewed in a different way than a literal multiplier

His is headcanon based on nothing at all which has been tackled already by me and Arc.

You're arguing what you think. As long as it isn't contradicted, a single statement is fine.

Yes I think.
Basically a single statement should not be enough for something so major, also personally I view Chopper's statement as being about how many attacks Oars can send anyways rather than his strength literally being halved

A single statement is good enough if it makes enough sense. This makes enough sense.
And again, the other interpretation makes no sense, as like Char said, "he has legs".

Also do we use the spine thing for a multiplier, if not then this doesn't matter as an example

It matters as an example, because it's a mechanic of the verse.
It doesn't need to be a multiplier for it to be a strict verse mechanic.

 

[SnookB]

Chopper's statement as being about how many attacks Oars can send anyways rather than his strength literally being halved

If Chopper and Co were fighting Luffy and getting assaulted by his Bazooka attacks, in the context of Oars, they'd say the exact same thing. Disable one arm and he won't be able to hit as hard with Bazooka.
I agree with KT. In terms of combined attacks/multi-limbed ones, Oars and Luffy should stay untouched.

 

[KingTempest]

If Chopper and Co were fighting Luffy and getting assaulted by his Bazooka attacks, in the context of Oars, they'd say the exact same thing. Disable one arm and he won't be able to hit as hard with Bazooka.
I agree with KT. In terms of combined attacks/multi-limbed ones, Oars and Luffy should stay untouched.

This

Yall wanna remove it for the whole verse? Whatever

Keep it for the people the technique was intended for

 

[Paul_Frank]

I'm gonna have to agree with Tllm and the OP here

 

[Eseseso]

Oars and Luffy stay untouched, the rest should go.

 

[KingTempest]

Yall agreeing with shit that has been COUNTERED.

What are you guys even agreeing with atp

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Yall wanna remove it for the whole verse? Whatever

If you don’t think the argument is sound as a debunk don’t just drop it with a whatever

 

[KingTempest]

If you don’t think the argument is sound as a debunk don’t just drop it with a whatever

they want it gone for the whole verse.

i don't care if they want it out for everybody

i care if they want it out for the people the statement was intended for, since those originally were the only people affected by it

 

[Tllmbrg]

If Chopper and Co were fighting Luffy and getting assaulted by his Bazooka attacks, in the context of Oars, they'd say the exact same thing. Disable one arm and he won't be able to hit as hard with Bazooka.
I agree with KT. In terms of combined attacks/multi-limbed ones, Oars and Luffy should stay untouched.

Bazooka is not related to this thread anyways since it's a technique so

The 2 hand attempt would be more successful because more force would be applied when striking with 2 hands, but the 1 hand approach is better if you're trying to swing easier or in motion.

Again unless the difference ends making him beyond slow, like so slow he gets no benefit from it than he has no reason to not use a stronger stab
This is a series where somehow holding a sword in your mouth actually works as a move, a guy can block three swords with a tiny ass knife and other ridiculous stuff.
Regular swordsmanship clearly does not apply at all, why are you trying to use it to justify a dude who can just run around the whole field to slash people not using two hands?
Heck you're not even consistent, if you're using IRL logic to support my Cavendish doesn't use two arms than I can just use it to show why the two arms thing is illogical because IRL punching with two hands at once does not make your attack stronger at all lol

His is headcanon based on nothing at all which has been tackled already by me and Arc.

Evidently people still find my arguments more compelling

A single statement is good enough if it makes enough sense. This makes enough sense.
And again, the other interpretation makes no sense, as like Char said, "he has legs".

It doesn't make sense at all no, Char's interpretation of the scene makes more sense since cutting Oars effective battling strength makes more sense in context when the guy was moping them with single limb attacks the whole time

It matters as an example, because it's a mechanic of the verse.
It doesn't need to be a multiplier for it to be a strict verse mechanic.

Yes it's not the same because the example on the page for the heat resistance is a Haki user saying "Hey this thing that's being used on me, yah I'm countering it with my haki"
Chopper's thing is just "Hey cut his arm, it'll drop his power by two" which he doesn't really elaborate much at all and is the only supposed evidence for this.
Not to mention I would hope Haki has more than 1 feat of resisting heat otherwise we can discuss how valid that is at a later date

 

[KingTempest]

Bazooka is not related to this thread anyways since it's a technique so

Bazooka is the REASON for the multiplier. What are you talking about

Again unless the difference ends making him beyond slow, like so slow he gets no benefit from it than he has no reason to not use a stronger stab

Frankly I don't care unless you have an argument that isn't "I don't think he'd do this".
He does that because that's his fighting style. Deal with it. Power aint everything, which is why Luffy sometimes punches without his gomu powers, or Zoro uses 1 handed moves over 2 handed ones occasionally.

This is a series where somehow holding a sword in your mouth actually works as a move, a guy can block three swords with a tiny ass knife and other ridiculous stuff.
Regular swordsmanship clearly does not apply at all, why are you trying to use it to justify a dude who can just run around the whole field to slash people not using two hands?

You mean the guy who trained his jaw and mouth is now the precedence for the verse's swordsmanship?

Heck you're not even consistent, if you're using IRL logic to support my Cavendish doesn't use two arms than I can just use it to show why the two arms thing is illogical because IRL punching with two hands at once does not make your attack stronger at all lol

Irl punching somebody with 2 arms is stronger. It's not 2x stronger due to surface area, but it's stronger.

We use irl logic unless inverse contradicts it.

Evidently people still find my arguments more compelling

If "I think this works" is an argument then I guess we gotta change how this entire site works, since fallacy based arguments founded on "I think" and "this should" aren't usually working here.

It doesn't make sense at all no, Char's interpretation of the scene makes more sense since cutting Oars effective battling strength makes more sense in context when the guy was moping them with single limb attacks the whole time

You clearly didn't read the fight, when he dusted 2 members with a gatling, and the statement was said directly in response to a double limbed attack.

You're deadass just ignoring the context. Chopper responded to a double limbed attack and said "cut his arm so he can't do that shit no more", and you guys are ignoring it for a random interpretation.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

After reading through everything, I believe the amp should remain for Luffy and Oars' Bazooka techniques.

But I don't really think the other stuff is very solid, so axe that.

Basically, I agree with KT.