One Piece: Combined Attacks but we're removing them.

[KingTempest]

You guys interpretation and your single limbed bullshit is contradicted by Chopper saying that as a counter to Oars' Bazooka.

So can the headcanon of it referencing effectiveness for single handed attacks die when
A. The statement references a bazooka
B. The only time his defective arm played any part was when he tried to do a Bazooka.

So please stop this headcanon of "effectiveness" when everything points to the double limbed move

 

[Tllmbrg]

Okay I just found something
In another site the scan says effectiveness rather than power
I even had someone verify it on the Fate discord with the Japanese scan and they it translates to offensive ability

So the original statement isn't even about cutting his power literally in half but just making him less effective in combat lol

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree 100% with King here, he blatantly stated that this multiplier needs to be looked at per character and the way they utilize it.


For instance, Kengan has an accepted 2-3 times multiplier for using the strength of your legs as opposed to the arms which is backed up by real life studies. Chopper has his statement about Oras's which should be enough.



The issue isn't the multiplier itself, it's the fact that people lack any reading comprehension whatsoever and instead of following the blatant guidelines that KingTempest laid out particular fans are only gunning for upgrades which shouldn't be a legitimate argument to throw said multiplier away.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay I just found something
In another site the scan says effectiveness rather than power
I even had someone verify it on the Fate discord with the Japanese scan and they it translates to offensive ability

So the original statement isn't even about cutting his power literally in half but just making him less effective in combat lol

Give up, we already tackled this and we use Stephen Paul's statements over Viz translations for everything. This isn't anything new

Disclaimer​

We mainly use Stephen Paul's translations prior to chapter 546 because of the bad Viz translations, and from him being the new translator for Viz after the timeskip, his translations have been deemed the official ones (since technically he is Viz for One Piece).

Example 1​

In real life, we know that attacking with 2 arms wouldn't be the force of 1 arm x 2 because of the issues of precision and such. Please don't argue with me on this point, cause I'm trying to disprove it for the series.

In One Piece, we are given a statement of Oars' attack power getting split in half when one of his arms are restricted (Stephen's translation), Chapter 477.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also that Fate discord is outright irrelevant to this discussion.

Viz has terrible translations unless you think Zoro is now called Zolo.


We have accepted translations from the RAW scans, and it's done by a trusted translator on the wiki.


Next argument please.

 

[Damage3245]

Viz has terrible translations unless you think Zoro is now called Zolo.

That's a bit of a strawman. Viz changing Zoro's name for copyright reasons and then sticking it for consistency is not a knock against every single translation from Viz for the rest of the series.

 

[LordGinSama]

That's a bit of a strawman. Viz changing Zoro's name for copyright reasons and then sticking it for consistency is not a knock against every single translation from Viz for the rest of the series.

Damage there are several instances of bad translations from Viz. We both know this as a fact given the translations for the HST they've done which don't compare to the RAW's.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I didn’t even take this scan from Viz website

 

[Damage3245]

I didn’t even take this scan from Viz website

That doesn't mean it isn't done by Viz then rehosted to where you found it.

 

[SnookB]

Bazooka is not related to this thread anyways since it's a technique so

Oars' two handed attack is the exact same as Luffy.
If we're removing it for Oars who's using Luffy's mechanics and relying entirely on his arms for the attack, we're doing it for Luffy. Those two are the only ones who should solidly keep their "two-handed" mechanic since it isn't contradicted story wise or mess the scaling up.

 

[KingTempest]

I didn’t even take this scan from Viz website

I bought viz, that's the viz translation, they just stole it on their site

That's a bit of a strawman. Viz changing Zoro's name for copyright reasons and then sticking it for consistency is not a knock against every single translation from Viz for the rest of the series.

Not coming at you, but you know as well as I do (if not more) that Viz is an issue.
Remember the doriki added statements from a while ago?

Viz can't be trusted

 

[Tllmbrg]

How about we have someone translate it here on site?
Since evidently there's the possibility that the scan does not say power we should make 100% certain it does in fact say power/strength when Chopper talking about halving Oars thing right?

 

[LordGinSama]

How about we have someone translate it here on site?
Since evidently there's the possibility that the scan does not say power we should make 100% certain it does in fact say power/strength when Chopper talking about halving Oars thing right?

We have, several times.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Where

 

[KingTempest]

How about we have someone translate it here on site?
Since evidently there's the possibility that the scan does not say power we should make 100% certain it does in fact say power/strength when Chopper talking about halving Oars thing right?

Lol. I got stuff in the translations that's been there for months. You're asking for a dead dog to bark.

If your friend made it say offensive ability and Stephen Paul says power, then it says power. That other view would just repeat the same thing.

 

[Nierre]

I agree 100% with King here, he blatantly stated that this multiplier needs to be looked at per character and the way they utilize it.


For instance, Kengan has an accepted 2-3 times multiplier for using the strength of your legs as opposed to the arms which is backed up by real life studies. Chopper has his statement about Oras's which should be enough.



The issue isn't the multiplier itself, it's the fact that people lack any reading comprehension whatsoever and instead of following the blatant guidelines that KingTempest laid out particular fans are only gunning for upgrades which shouldn't be a legitimate argument to throw said multiplier away.

Agree with Gin FRA

 

[LordGinSama]

Where

Literally in the OP where it was accepted???

 

[Tllmbrg]

Lol. I got stuff in the translations that's been there for months. You're asking for a dead dog to bark.

If your friend made it say offensive ability and Stephen Paul says power, then it says power. That other view would just repeat the same thing.

I don't care, we have a problem regarding translations it seems so we need to resolve it
Surely if several staff push for it we can get a bloody translation

 

[KingTempest]

I don't care, we have a problem regarding translations it seems so we need to resolve it
Surely if several staff push for it we can get a bloody translation

We got 2 translations that say power, 1 that says offensive ability, and 1 that says effectiveness
This is a very very very minor problem that has a company that can't translate good and a dude who took over for them.

I'd take the guy translating the recent chapters over the people that hired him to do it since they weren't good enough.

 

[LordGinSama]

I don't care, we have a problem regarding translations it seems so we need to resolve it
Surely if several staff push for it we can get a bloody translation.

Okay look, I'm gonna be respectful and succinct here. But I really don't think you have any knowledge on the verse if you think we legitimately haven't done this already.


Both King and Arc7 have translated Chopper's statement, we don't need a bloody translation since a bloody translation has already been made.

 

[KingTempest]

Btw just wanna add that this upgrades Monster Point Chopper before Wano to a High 6-C since he currently scales above Ittoryu Zoro so if this is accepted he'll scale above Zoro in general who scales above Jet Gatling

different thread, not here, not now, AKA don't talk about it

 

[LordGinSama]

Btw just wanna add that this upgrades Monster Point Chopper before Wano to a High 6-C since he currently scales above Ittoryu Zoro so if this is accepted he'll scale above Zoro in general who scales above Jet Gatling

Let's save that for another thread. This one is just for the multiplier, stop mentioning scaling every second you get.

 

[Nierre]

The issue isn't the multiplier itself, it's the fact that people lack any reading comprehension whatsoever and instead of following the blatant guidelines that KingTempest laid out particular fans are only gunning for upgrades which shouldn't be a legitimate argument to throw said multiplier away.

Also going into specifics. This is probably what irks me THE MOST about the whole multiplier situation. It's about it being abused for characters to get upgrades, they just care for upgrades, and not caring about how much sense it makes logically and thematically. It gets to the point where something so obvious like the combined attacks multiplier come into question, which as if KT created the issue, even though it's those who are not understanding what the multiplier thread was even originally created for (Luffy and Oars). These people KNOW THEMSELVES so I won't name any names, but it just shows alot about those people I'm just saying.
It's honestly disgusting.

 

[Eseseso]

Actually one point in favor of Zoro growing stronger with each sword is how he matched Killer (when Killer fought him) with two swords, yet one shot him with 2 swords and a scythe.

 

[Nierre]

Did he not use Onigiri? Isn't that one of his strongest attacks?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Actually one point in favor of Zoro growing stronger with each sword is how he matched Killer (when Killer fought him) with two swords, yet one shot him with 2 swords and a scythe.

But then you have Shishi Sonson and Rashomon and plenty of other moves that entirely contradict that

So I entirely agree with removing the multiplier for Zoro

 

[KingTempest]

But then you have Shishi Sonson and Rashomon and plenty of other moves that entirely contradict that

So I entirely agree with removing the multiplier for Zoro

We’re fine with taking this off, it’s Luffy and Oars we have a problem with

But your example isn’t good. Zoro has a hierarchy of techniques

 

[LordGinSama]

But then you have Shishi Sonson and Rashomon and plenty of other moves that entirely contradict that

So I entirely agree with removing the multiplier for Zoro

Both of those are Goken based abilities which are seperate from Zoro's physical strength. Goken allows for cutting attacks without / little to no strength involved so this doesn't make a lot of sense to me personally speaking.

 

[Eseseso]

Ok I'm fine with removing the Zoro multiplier I just wanted to bring that up.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

We’re fine with taking this off, it’s Luffy and Oars we have a problem with

I'm fine with Bazooka's staying 2x above a regular punch or kick, Bazooka's explicitly double power

 

[Eseseso]

Both of those are Goken based abilities which are seperate from Zoro's physical strength. Goken allows for cutting attacks without / little to no strength involved so this doesn't make a lot of sense to me personally speaking.

And yet we still mention those attacks in the AP section of both Zoro's profile.

Pre timeskip Zoro's goken is listed as being more powerful AP wise than base while post timeskip Zoro during the Onigashima raid has ShiShi SonSon listed as one of his strongest attacks

 

[Eseseso]

I'm fine with Bazooka's staying 2x above a regular punch or kick, Bazooka's explicitly double power

Absolutely, that's like the main thing that makes Bazooka so strong.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

But whatever. Here I go.


If you wanted to debunk this shit then you should've used more than "shoulds", and I'm disappointed in those who responded with flimsy ass arguments. I'll get to yall later.

Oh tempestade. You poor soul.

First of all, Oars is based off of Luffy, and Luffy never uses both of his feet AND his hands at the same time. Luffy barely uses his feet at all, and that isn't something he uses over and over. Luffy's strongest techniques are the ones where he applies both of his arms, and because they had the opportunity to destroy one of Oars' artificial limbs. It's stated in the magazines that Luffy primarily uses his hands for combos and such, shown by how he has a plethora of hand moves but deadass like 2 or 3 leg moves.

"Legs and arms at the same time".
Deadass just said Oars and Moriah could combine his legs for a dual attack, never said anything about combining legs and the remaining arm.

Luffy has like, two or th-

Gum-Gum Spear.

End of story.

Second of all, Oars' strongest attack was his Bazooka, and that was the attack that he spammed plus it was his strongest move. Like I said above, they had the opportunity to negate that shit. This is why when Luffy was about to hit him with the bazooka, he tried to retaliate with his own, and he couldn't because they disabled his arm.

You're responding the vacuum, I addressed Bazooka being Oars' strongest move.
Just said, strongest move /=/ Character's overall Strength.

Third of all, your "In fact, Chopper referring to Oars overall strength as exclusively the bazooka attack (which he used it once) makes no sense" is the most blatant ignoring of context I've seen all year. The move he used right before the statement of halved power is his Bazooka.

What is blatant is you cutting my argument short and ignoring my reasoning.
I said it makes no sense because, not only Oars use it once or twice for the entirety of this fight, but Chopper stating that wouldn't make sense or have narrative weight because Oars' strength with single limb attacks are already overwhelming to the crew.

Fourth of all, "Save for a single move". Gatling gun, which he used to take out both Chopper and Sanji.

Stomp Gatling. Literally in the OP.

Fifth of all, here's the thing. You're not supposed to send scans without context.
"The gang was still getting mollywhopped by regular attacks from Oars left and right" And they all got right the **** back up.
You seem to forget that Oars is stronger than every single person there by a vast amount, even without his combined attacks. So this point is just completely useless.
This is like saying that if this was for ******* Oden-

Terrible analogy. My point is that Oars single limb moves are way too overwhelming in strength for the crew, you're just agreeing by stating Oars is stronger than everyone.
Taking out his arm would just halve his body usage, thus, effective strength.

Sixth of all, it sounds like you don't understand why they deleted his arm, so I'll explain it.
Oars tries to use a Bazooka which Sanji countered, and it produced a large ass shockwave.
The arm he was using was fake. Because of that, they noticed they had an opportunity to cut his shit off, which they did, and because of that, they changed the game.

I understand why they deleted his arms.
To stop Oars from using it.

Lmao. This effective cuts his range by half and creates "a blind"/"numb" spot for free hits, cutting Oars' battle strength. I quite literally state so.


Sorry, but your response doesn't even address the logical issues and often even agree with the basis I had for them. Furthermore, if you accept Example 2 and 3 aren't even valid, then the entirety of a multiplier is being applied to a singular statement from Chopper, even if it applies just to Luffy (doesn't make sense, would be double standards for a singular character).

Now, do you believe my interpretation of the quote is not plausible?

 

[XDragnoir]

I'm fine with Bazooka's staying 2x above a regular punch or kick, Bazooka's explicitly double power

I disagree, either remove everything or keep them all, there's no in between here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I agree with the points you made for examples 3 and 2, but for example 1 with oars, Occam’s Razor far favors that “half strength” just means half AP rather than the convoluted line of reasoning you put forth. Although if Chopper is the one making the claim, questioning the validity of the source on the matter is still valid, as there would need to be some indication that Chopper is a reliable source on the matter.

That being said, I think Tllm makes a pragmatically sound point in that any character with two arms that only attacks with one would suffer from PIS, and by extension we’d have a lot of plain stupid characters. Not exactly a defeater to the arm multiplier tho, as it can just be argued that the characters are unaware/ignorant.

Also, thinking more on example 1, using the name of Zoro’s attacks to support any multiplier arguably falls under a naming fallacy as well. Although, I know some of Zoro’s attacks he “combines” his sword and overlays the point of impact (example that comes to mind is how he crosses his swords when he fights Mihawk in the beginning of the series). So in instances like that where he’s essentially he’s empowering one sword by striking the back of it with another sword, I can see a case for that being a power combination of his singular armed attacks. Although that seems to be built on a bit of a shaky foundation admittedly.

You see, Occam's Razor is a counter I can be contented with.

While half strength meaning half force is an obvious interpretation, my interpretation relies on the chance that "strength" is being used in a technical sense for "efficiency in battle", which is still a greater assumption than taking the statement at face value.

However, to counter the plain obvious, I brought up logical issues with it, to even the playing field. Chopper referring to Bazooka as Oars' strength, a move Oars used a singular time in the battle before then doesn't make sense, Oars relies exclusively on Gatling or singular limb attacks. And Oars' is strong enough to heavily damage the crew with said single linb attacks, making Chopper's statement effectively useless from a narrative standpoint.

If the statement refers to both bazooka and gatling attacks, like KT said, then it's more of a support that "strength" is referring to arsenal, rather than brute force.

I believe these factors, alongside with Chopper maybe not being the most reliable source (Knowing anatomy doesn't mean you know the physics behind punches/kicks, and wouldn't make sense to use Chopper's anatomy knowledge if you're just applying it to Luffy) are enough to make the statement itself dubious, and turning it unreliable enough to not be used.


With that said, I admit it's not a full blown debunk, I wouldn't complain if the multiplier only applied to Luffy and Oars.

 

[XDragnoir]

Also, since everyone is voicing their problems, ahem:

No, because like I said in other threads, using 2 hand

I have always thought that this is the most bullshit part of this multiplier since day 1, it allows for moves like this one to get the multiplier but moves like this one don't because having a weapon suddenly means the 2 hands wouldn't be applying extra force or whatever.

 

[LordGinSama]

Also, since everyone is voicing their problems, ahem:


I have always thought that this is the most bullshit part of this multiplier since day 1, it allows for moves like this one to get the multiplier

No it doesnt, Dragon Ball is not One Piece. Each verse has a different set of rules, you
purposely attempting to apply one example which isnt even stated (And you know that for a fact.) and comparing it to a verse where we have statements is completely different. This is low, even for you.

but moves like this one don't because having a weapon suddenly means the 2 hands wouldn't be applying extra force or whatever.

Kaidou isn't hitting you with two hands, he's holding a club with two hands. Total difference.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I do believe a single statement that's not even from an "omniscient" source (like narration or databook), that has some narrative implications/logical problems isn't enough for us to set an entire rule for the whole verse. Especially for a single individual.

However, I do believe Tempest has some more solid stuff coming.

 

[XDragnoir]

No it doesnt, Dragon Ball is not One Piece. Each verse has a different set of rules,

No, baka, i meant the style of attack, i just didn't find an example of that in OP.

 

[XDragnoir]

Kaidou isn't hitting you with two hands, he's holding a club with two hands. Total difference.

He's applying his strength to his club and then to someone else, what's the difference? It's still the strength one gets from moving both arms downwards (like the example i gave from Goku) but being "focused" on a weapon before hitting someone.