One Piece: Combined Attacks but we're removing them.

[KingTempest]

He's applying his strength to his club and then to someone else, what's the difference? It's still the strength one gets from moving both arms downwards (like the example i gave from Goku) but being "focused" on a weapon before hitting someone.

You’re trying to say 2 hands 1 club is the same as 2 hands 2 clubs, which is dumb, wrong, and doesn’t make sense

 

[SnookB]

Also, since everyone is voicing their problems, ahem:


I have always thought that this is the most bullshit part of this multiplier since day 1, it allows for moves like this one to get the multiplier but moves like this one don't because having a weapon suddenly means the 2 hands wouldn't be applying extra force or whatever.

The first example isn't even workable. Goku's throwing his hole ass body into that. he reason Luffy and Oars get 2 handed advantages is because they STRETCH THEIR ARMS BACK
AND SHOOT THEIR ARMS FORWARD simultaneously. It's all in the arms.
If Luffy's kinetic energy from 1 single arm stretching back and hitting you is 2 megatons, then doing the exact same thing with TWO arms hitting you at the exact same time via STRETCHING or other rubber mechanisms should be double that. It isn't a "two handed" thing, it's a "Luffy" thing because of how his fruit works.
The only exception to Luffy not getting this would be if he scaled to a value only with Bazooka or Cannon, otherwise they'll always be stronger than his one handed attacks.

 

[XDragnoir]

You’re trying to say 2 hands 1 club is the same as 2 hands 2 clubs, which is dumb, wrong, and doesn’t make sense

...

I never claimed these two things were the same? Just literally look at the first example, an attack using both hands clenched would get the multiplier under the currently accepted rules while an attack doing the exact same motion with a club added wouldn't.

I could have used Bazooka as an example but i wanted a two hand attack that resembled a motion also done with a weapon.

 

[KingTempest]

...

I never claimed these two things were the same? Just literally look at the first example, an attack using both hands clenched would get the multiplier under the currently accepted rules while an attack doing the exact same motion with a club added wouldn't.

I could have used Bazooka as an example but i wanted a two hand attack that resembled a motion also done with a weapon.

You would need 2 weapons for it

Zoro with 2 swords and Zoro with 2 hands using 1 sword isn’t the same

 

[XDragnoir]

You would need 2 weapons for it

Zoro with 2 swords and Zoro with 2 hands using 1 sword isn’t the same

...

That's what is currently accepted, i am aware of that, i am literally saying that logic isn't valid for all cases. Heck, Zoro himself has Shi Shishi Sonson as one of his strongest moves, that makes no sense even when taking things like Goken into account given Goken can be applied to all of his sword styles.

I literally just gave an example where the exact same 2 hand motion is actually strengthened by the addition of a weapon when compared to that motion without an weapon but we don't apply the multiplier cause... Idk really, the basis for the multiplier is the amount of limbs behind an attack not the amount of hands touching the target.

 

[Eseseso]

Aren't Goken and Shishi sonson the same thing?

 

[SnookB]

This is literally exactly why Yonko's 2 handed attacks were denied to be over Fujitora's meteorite by double the value. it doesn't work like that.

 

[LordGinSama]

Aren't Goken and Shishi sonson the same thing?

ShiShi Sonson utilities Goken. ShiShi Sonson is just another Iai attack if it doesn't utilize Goken.

 

[XDragnoir]

This is literally exactly why Yonko's 2 handed attacks were denied to be over Fujitora's meteorite by double the value. it doesn't work like that.

Thought that was cause there was no proof they would scale with a single hand?

Anyway, what i am talking about applies to all two hand+weapons in the verse, not just the Yonko.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

@XDragnoir You're stating some very irrelevant nit-picks. I must ask you to not to continue this if you wish for this multiplier to be removed, it just needlessly increase the length of the debate.

Either way, I believe I made some tangible points on my last post to Arc, so if anyone would like to add or respond to that.

 

[Magmag]

the thing is, i believe some small parts of the multiplier should stay, like luffy and oars, but it gets really faulty and funky with swordsmen(or just weapon users in general). so then what do we do is the question. just give certain fighting styles multipliers(brawlers)? or do we have to handpick carefully the exacts techniques used by everyone...

 

[SnookB]

I believe these factors, alongside with Chopper maybe not being the most reliable source (Knowing anatomy doesn't mean you know the physics behind punches/kicks, and wouldn't make sense to use Chopper's anatomy knowledge if you're just applying it to Luffy) are enough to make the statement itself dubious, and turning it unreliable enough to not be used.

So, the thing here is. Chopper has the Scan ability, which while we didn't see him use- he had to have somehow found out the arm was fake through. He also knew Luffy's nature enough since they're crewmates. He witnessed the Bazooka attack firsthand iirc when done on Wapol and there should be no doubt the smarter straw hats are aware of how rubber works (ie, stretching back and snapping forward builds greater oomf)

Once Moria took Luffy's shadow and allowed Oars to stretch, they basically started fighting a giga-sized Luffy, even used the meat gag to distract him and all. The anime does say "offensive power" right after Oars uses the Bazooka attack, which everyone were commenting on being hella powerful and told Sanji to run instead of trying to stop it.

And Oars' is strong enough to heavily damage the crew with said single linb attacks, making Chopper's statement effectively useless from a narrative standpoint.

This goes both ways. If they're aware he can damage them with singular moves then why bother destroying one of his arms at all? It won't make a difference because any hit is an incredibly dangerous one, unless they were specifically trying to restrict his stronger/more dangerous moves (bazooka, gatling)

I wouldn't complain if the multiplier only applied to Luffy and Oars.

Same. They're the only two who I can confidently say it would make zero sense removing it for. It isn't so much the 2 handedness as it's the nature of Luffy/oars' stretching/KE delivery

 

[Damage3245]

I'm currently more in favor of just removing the multiplier completely.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

You see, Occam's Razor is a counter I can be contented with.

While half strength meaning half force is an obvious interpretation, my interpretation relies on the chance that "strength" is being used in a technical sense for "efficiency in battle", which is still a greater assumption than taking the statement at face value.

However, to counter the plain obvious, I brought up logical issues with it, to even the playing field. Chopper referring to Bazooka as Oars' strength, a move Oars used a singular time in the battle before then doesn't make sense, Oars relies exclusively on Gatling or singular limb attacks. And Oars' is strong enough to heavily damage the crew with said single linb attacks, making Chopper's statement effectively useless from a narrative standpoint.

If the statement refers to both bazooka and gatling attacks, like KT said, then it's more of a support that "strength" is referring to arsenal, rather than brute force.

I believe these factors, alongside with Chopper maybe not being the most reliable source (Knowing anatomy doesn't mean you know the physics behind punches/kicks, and wouldn't make sense to use Chopper's anatomy knowledge if you're just applying it to Luffy) are enough to make the statement itself dubious, and turning it unreliable enough to not be used.


With that said, I admit it's not a full blown debunk, I wouldn't complain if the multiplier only applied to Luffy and Oars.

Can Chopper even sense someone’s power level?

 

[Jibz]

Truly the most difficult evidence to debunk, it's literally stating that removing one of Oars limbs will result in a decrease in strength, I really believe I cannot fully debunk it. There is some logical problems with this, however. Taking out one of Oars' arms wouldn't half his strength at all, actually. He still have 3 other very healthy limbs which he could use to attack, two of which are not affected by this in any way.

I mean if he loses one arm he drops his strength by half, so is his other arm not worth as much in terms of strength? If there’s no discernable difference in the strength of his arms then it stands to reason each arm would be 50%. Losing both would mean his strength would be cut by the same margin, which is 50% of the original, thus he’d have no power left. Which makes 0 sense. I can see why this is a disconcerting matter.

 

[KingTempest]

...

That's what is currently accepted, i am aware of that, i am literally saying that logic isn't valid for all cases. Heck, Zoro himself has Shi Shishi Sonson as one of his strongest moves, that makes no sense even when taking things like Goken into account given Goken can be applied to all of his sword styles.

I literally just gave an example where the exact same 2 hand motion is actually strengthened by the addition of a weapon when compared to that motion without an weapon but we don't apply the multiplier cause... Idk really, the basis for the multiplier is the amount of limbs behind an attack not the amount of hands touching the target.

No, because what you want applied is shit.

Kaidou is 6-A with a hand and his Kanabo. Adding another hand doesn't double that. He needs to double EVERYTHING he uses in the other limb for it to be a 2x multiplier.

If he uses a knife, he needs 2 knives.
If he uses a sword, he needs 2 swords.
If he uses a kanabo, he needs 2 kanabos.

2 hands isn't enough when you use a weapon. Unless you scale without any weapon, then it's shit.

 

[XDragnoir]

No, because what you want applied is shit.

Kaidou is 6-A with a hand and his Kanabo. Adding another hand doesn't double that. He needs to double EVERYTHING he uses in the other limb for it to be a 2x multiplier.

If he uses a knife, he needs 2 knives.
If he uses a sword, he needs 2 swords.
If he uses a kanabo, he needs 2 kanabos.

2 hands isn't enough when you use a weapon. Unless you scale without any weapon, then it's shit.

Kaido isn't the only example of a character with a two handed weapon, ****, i never said he should be 2x that or half this, i am saying i have a problem with the multiplier not allowing 2 handed weapons to begin with,not even in cases where we have a tier for the character without any weapon.

And like, this is my only problem with the multiplier, really, i think the combination attacks as well as the statement from Chopper are enough proof.

 

[Magmag]

yeah no, the multiplier makes less and less sense the more scenarios u think about that do and don't apply to the multiplier.

 

[KingTempest]

yeah no, the multiplier makes less and less sense the more scenarios u think about that do and don't apply to the multiplier.

a dude stretching and hitting with 1 hand is half as strong as the dude hitting with 2 hands

how does that not make sense

 

[Magmag]

a dude stretching and hitting with 1 hand is half as strong as the dude hitting with 2 hands

how does that not make sense

so then it only applies to luffy and oars with this logic, thats the only way it makes sense. or it only applies to brawlers who don't use weapons.

He needs to double EVERYTHING he uses in the other limb for it to be a 2x multiplier.

cuz with ur reasoning for weapons, its not the limbs giving the multiplier but rather the weapon.

 

[KingTempest]

so then it only applies to luffy and oars with this logic, thats the only way it makes sense. or it only applies to brawlers who don't use weapons.

cuz with ur reasoning for weapons, its not the limbs giving the multiplier but rather the weapon.

if they scale to a certain value while using a weapon, then they'd need to double the weapon to double the yield.

If Kaidou scales to a person for smacking them with a Kanabo, why would an extra hand double it when the yield came from the Kanabo

 

[Magmag]

if they scale to a certain value while using a weapon, then they'd need to double the weapon to double the yield.

so then its a weapon multiplier not a limb multiplier?

If Kaidou scales to a person for smacking them with a Kanabo, why would an extra hand double it when the yield came from the Kanabo

bc the entire basis is limbs doubling strength in one piece, atleast according to the current standards.

 

[KingTempest]

so then its a weapon multiplier not a limb multiplier?

bc the entire basis is limbs doubling strength in one piece, atleast according to the current standards.

whatever is causing the yield needs to be doubled

if it's a limb, it's twice a limb

if it's a weapon and a limb, it's twice a weapon and a yield

if it's a bomb, it's 2 bombs

it's very simple

 

[Magmag]

whatever is causing the yield needs to be doubled

if it's a limb, it's twice a limb

if it's a weapon and a limb, it's twice a weapon and a yield

if it's a bomb, it's 2 bombs

it's very simple

well not really simple cuz ur logic is not making any sense.
whatever the yield is doubled with limbs unless we're saying weapons amp

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

To bring a little reality into this argument, you can put more of your body into a single fist punch than a double fist punch, hence why people throw single fist punches in actual combat, because they’re stronger. Not that that is inherently the case in fiction, but I read “how does that not make sense” in reference to double fist punch being inherently 2x single fist punch and thought I’d explain why.

 

[Magmag]

i dont wanna be the "analogy/scenario" type guy but says whoops kaidos kanabo slips out his hand and he double hammer fists luffy, so then does the multiplier suddenly come into effect?

 

[KingTempest]

well not really simple cuz ur logic is not making any sense.
whatever the yield is doubled with limbs unless we're saying weapons amp

IF I SMACK A DOG WITH A HAND AND A STICK, I WOULD NEED 2 HANDS AND 2 STICKS FOR THAT TO BE DOUBLED

IT'S A MULTIPLIER FOR THE AMOUNT OF THINGS YOU USED TO CAUSE THE ORIGINAL YIELD

IF I SMACKED THE DOG WITH MY HAND ALONE, THEN 2 HANDS REGARDLESS OF WEAPON AMOUNT WOULD SCALE

BUT IF I ONLY SMACKED IT WITH MY HAND AND A STICK, THEN I WOULD NEED ANOTHER HAND AND A STICK FOR IT TO DOUBLE.

This not even difficult, yall just struggling to understand how math works.

If the hand is X and the stick is 4, this would be X + 4
Another hand is X

X + 4 + X is not the same as 2x

You would need to add another X + 4 instead of just an X to double it.


Now if the yield was only caused with an x, you'd only need to do 2x for that to go through.

 

[Magmag]

IF I SMACK A DOG WITH A HAND AND A STICK, I WOULD NEED 2 HANDS AND 2 STICKS FOR THAT TO BE DOUBLED

IT'S A MULTIPLIER FOR THE AMOUNT OF THINGS YOU USED TO CAUSE THE ORIGINAL YIELD

IF I SMACKED THE DOG WITH MY HAND ALONE, THEN 2 HANDS REGARDLESS OF WEAPON AMOUNT WOULD SCALE

BUT IF I ONLY SMACKED IT WITH MY HAND AND A STICK, THEN I WOULD NEED ANOTHER HAND AND A STICK FOR IT TO DOUBLE.

This not even difficult, yall just struggling to understand how math works.

If the hand is X and the stick is 4, this would be X + 4
Another hand is X

X + 4 + X is not the same as 2x

You would need to add another X + 4 instead of just an X to double it.


Now if the yield was only caused with an x, you'd only need to do 2x for that to go through.

so then its weapon amps...

 

[KillerH]

a dude stretching and hitting with 1 hand is half as strong as the dude hitting with 2 hands

how does that not make sense

Taking gomu gomu bazooka

If hands are straight, in terms of its total force yes it is correct. In terms of damage it is not exactly twice because it is done on 2 different spots.

If hands are not straight in the first place and focus at one point then 1 hand is not half of 2 hand whether it is total force done or damage. You can approximate it as twice but not exactly twice.

 

[KingTempest]

so then its weapon amps...

Oh my ******* gosh

 

[Magmag]

Oh my ******* gosh

well u added a +4 to the weapon suggesting it is indeed amping character a, so yes, very faulty logic in the multiplier. ill wait on other people to comment more.

 

[KingTempest]

well u added a +4 to the weapon suggesting it is indeed amping character a, so yes, very faulty logic in the multiplier. ill wait on other people to comment more.

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying at all.

If I punch the shit out of a wall and it gives me wall level, I would need to use 2 hands to double that.

If I chop a tree with my 1 arm and 1 axe, adding 1 arm doesn't double that, I would need 1 arm and 1 axe.




I don't understand how you can possibly think this means "so it's a weapon's amp". With all due respect, you just lack the ability to comprehend this statement.

 

[Deceived3596]

To bring a little reality into this argument, you can put more of your body into a single fist punch than a double fist punch, hence why people throw single fist punches in actual combat, because they’re stronger.

Yes, this is true.... i know from experience....

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, this is true.... i know from experience....

who punched u bro

 

[Deceived3596]

who punched u bro

Not that way goober.

 

[Magmag]

You're clearly not understanding what I'm saying at all.

If I punch the shit out of a wall and it gives me wall level, I would need to use 2 hands to double that.

If I chop a tree with my 1 arm and 1 axe, adding 1 arm doesn't double that, I would need 1 arm and 1 axe.




I don't understand how you can possibly think this means "so it's a weapon's amp". With all due respect, you just lack the ability to comprehend this statement.

no im simply using the logic here, its the weapon filling the "gap" here...

it would simply be X(hand) + 0(weapon)= x
then x(hand) + 0(weapon) + x(hand)= 2x

 

[KingTempest]

it would simply be X(hand) + 0(weapon)= x
then x(hand) + 0(weapon) + x(hand)= 2x

is this counting if there's no weapon?

 

[Magmag]

is this counting if there's no weapon?

its counting the weapon as having no amp value. so technically yes, cuz weapon=0.

 

[KingTempest]

its counting the weapon as having no amp value.

who told you the weapon has no amp value

this don't make no ******* sense

you went against everything i just said

weapon is not 0. Weapon is a value, and you need to double the amount of weapons you use to double the value

2 ( x[hand] + 3[weapon ] ) = x[hand] + 3[weapon] + x[hand] + 3[weapon]
it's deadass simple math.

if the weapon assisted in the yield, you would need to multiply the entire equation by 2 to double the yield, which means you double the amount of weapons, and as the weapon has a value, you'd need to double the weapon

 

[MonkeyOfLife]

It's honestly disgusting.

No it's not (I think), you're overreacting...

This upgrade only thing happens very rarely compared to other verses I have seen, idk your comment just felt very vague and a way to restrict OP from allowing to get any upgrades, especially when you said it's honestly disgusting

But that's all I wanted to say because I don't want to derail or debate about this, your comment just felt kinda weird to me, maybe I'm the one overreacting/overthinking but