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One Piece - 6-C revision
- Thread starter CinCameron20
- Start date
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This seems pretty cut and dry to me. We have several examples of charcaters resisting/tanking Issho's gravity and clashing with Issho directly. if there were some massive difference between the two I could understand the conservativism, but we're talking about 900 VS 1900 megatons.
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@Fix
It is cut and dry: it doesnt scale. The feats support my conclusion. Its the only rational one if oneself has no inherent bias since I provided explicit scans to support it.
Notice how every other conclusion relies on extrapolation from evidence. Mine relies on INTERpolation. One of these is superior in any case I can think of. Luffy clashes, Luffy fails to overcome, Issho overpowers. That's not scalable to calcs
It is cut and dry: it doesnt scale. The feats support my conclusion. Its the only rational one if oneself has no inherent bias since I provided explicit scans to support it.
Notice how every other conclusion relies on extrapolation from evidence. Mine relies on INTERpolation. One of these is superior in any case I can think of. Luffy clashes, Luffy fails to overcome, Issho overpowers. That's not scalable to calcs
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Others have been incorrect and the explicit evidence disproves their argumentation, as a few staff have pointed out. My argument is stronger due to actually having objective support, @Dr. Fix. Simply claiming I'm wrong while saying I cannot do the same is....well, it's a tactic alright
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Lifting strength is what that would be since he was flat on his back and flexing out of it; there's a marked difference between overwhelming Issho's gravity with an attack, and simply flexing oneself out of it. I'd be more than fine scaling Zoro to [X] Lifting Strength, if [X] could be calc'd for Issho's gravity's 'weight' as it wereDr.Fix said:
Eminiteable
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Looking over it you made the assumption that Fujitora has some unknown Physical attack that he could have used against sabo and Luffy, this is a massive assumption since he's never shown or been implied to have another form of attack other than using gravity or cutting dudes(from my memory), so the obvious option would be that he used the means of attack he uses most: his gravity, which via sabo has been proven to be utilized with Haki (and it's not out of nature in one piece for attacks like this to utilize haki)
Then you claimed that you can't use same force for for a named attack compared to him lifting the rubble; but solution 1 takes into account if he is restricted in some way, and an unnamed attack typically is trumped by named ones in literally every case in one piece, so why assume every attack has its own AP.
Then you claimed that you can't use same force for for a named attack compared to him lifting the rubble; but solution 1 takes into account if he is restricted in some way, and an unnamed attack typically is trumped by named ones in literally every case in one piece, so why assume every attack has its own AP.
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@Eminiteable; there is clearly an explicit different in the power of Fujitora's attacks seeing as his clashes with Luffy didn't knock him back but focusing his gravity powers did.
The main issue is trying to scale his casual clashes with Luffy to his highest possible showing with gravity powers.
The main issue is trying to scale his casual clashes with Luffy to his highest possible showing with gravity powers.
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Like Xulrev just explained regarding Zoro that would mean Luffy's lifting strength wouldn't scale, also I can't remember who mentioned this but Luffy mid-air when he was hit; gravity being amplified would obviously push him back.
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Him lifting the rubble is clearly a casual feat for Fujitora compared to Ferocious Tiger; after performing lifting the rubble he shows no effort, no change in facial expression literally nothing (at least from what I'm seeing) yet when he used ferocious tiger against Luffy he's seen sweating and huffing he's even shown using a lot more expression using it; pretty simple stuff that a named attack that he puts considerably more effort into should be superior or at least equal to a casual feat.
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Lifting the rubble = several panels long feat that took concentration
Ferocious Tiger = a single panel and a single swing
When he used the technique against Luffy, he had already been dodging several attacks and was appalled at the absurdity of the entire fight: the boy who showed pity on a blind man, the boy who had been genuinely, unfalteringly kind to him when the boy didn't know who on earth he was, the boy who is pure unfettered honesty and good-will and the savior of the very country they're fighting in, was facing him down and forcing him into a horrid decision of Duty vs Conscience
So yes, of course Issho was having a bit of mental strain during the Ferocious Tiger feat, methinks.
Ferocious Tiger = a single panel and a single swing
When he used the technique against Luffy, he had already been dodging several attacks and was appalled at the absurdity of the entire fight: the boy who showed pity on a blind man, the boy who had been genuinely, unfalteringly kind to him when the boy didn't know who on earth he was, the boy who is pure unfettered honesty and good-will and the savior of the very country they're fighting in, was facing him down and forcing him into a horrid decision of Duty vs Conscience
So yes, of course Issho was having a bit of mental strain during the Ferocious Tiger feat, methinks.
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@Eminiteable; even if we accepted that Ferocious Tiger scaled to Fujitora's highest showing Luffy's Gear 3 still wouldn't scale to it due to Luffy being completely overpowered.
Stefano4444
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I would also like to bring another option for 6-C, which is by using Zunisha's Feat, since recently it was evaluated and the Low End 15 Seconds can be used, which is 4.92282866 Gigatons of TNT.
This because not only Jack was able to took his Trunk and survive it without be severely injured, but because by his own words he was going to "gouge out its eyes and cut off its tongue" or "rip through its belly from the inside out", which should be enough to make the scaling valid.
This because not only Jack was able to took his Trunk and survive it without be severely injured, but because by his own words he was going to "gouge out its eyes and cut off its tongue" or "rip through its belly from the inside out", which should be enough to make the scaling valid.
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Luffy flying back has already been explained by others.
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It taking more panels to show the scale from every characters perspective doesn't mean it's superior to Ferocious Tiger.Xulrev said:
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@Stefano, that kind of scaling falls apart for so many reasons. Doing chip damage to a massive creature in its weak spots is not a reason to scale.
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We have a few "overlooked" feats we might have to bring back, actually.
Stefano4444
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Since when gourge out someone's eyes or someone's belly from the inside is considered chip damage?Damage3245 said:
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Cannon balls have also harmed Whitebeard, and so have regular pistols; that isn't a strong argument.Xulrev said:
Stefano4444
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Since cannonballs harming it is an objective occurence. I presume Jack hits harder than a cannonball, and unless we want 6-C cannonballs....
Considering that those cannonballs where able to generate massive explosions which destroyed large chucks of flesh from Zunesha's leg (a leg which Is like several kms in length), i think we can presume that cannonballs in One Piece are more comparable to real life nukes in term of DC rather than real life cannonballs.
So no, that doesn't make invalid the scaling.
Considering that those cannonballs where able to generate massive explosions which destroyed large chucks of flesh from Zunesha's leg (a leg which Is like several kms in length), i think we can presume that cannonballs in One Piece are more comparable to real life nukes in term of DC rather than real life cannonballs.
So no, that doesn't make invalid the scaling.
Stefano4444
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Dying old man getting injured isn't exactly the best refutation of my point, methinks
A dying Old Man who was above East Blue fodders, aka Large Durability level+ characters.
A dying Old Man who was above East Blue fodders, aka Large Durability level+ characters.
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Chip damage may have the wrong term, but you can't use Zunesha's trunk swing to find the durability of its eyeballs. Never mind the fact that this was hypothetical damage anyway.
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Zunesha losing "large" chunks of flesh is wrong. The perspective doesn't show anything as large as you want to suggest it is, and no mention of said injuries after Chopper healed the leg nor a visual indication that such thing happened when the leg got bandaged.
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- Thread starter
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... uh, massive difference: Both of them are charging into eachother. The first hit has Fujitora putting up a guard in response to Luffy charging him.Xulrev said:
- Also, presumption, but it does not look like Luffy is attacking, but rather blocking. We've never seen him go for a back-hand w/ Gear 3rd, and instead see him defend with his arm at similar positions.
Again, Fujitora keeping the rubble in the sky consistently shows how casual the feat is, and he kept it afloat for x amount of minutes without being bothered in the slightest. He even lifted it without strain (You claim concentration, when all we see is him lifting his arm up, and he shows not a single sign of being stressed).
- Suddenly, his DF enhanced sword strikes--which btw left him panting in the middle of their fight, and even fatigued him by the end of it--are to be assumed dramatically weaker than his casual display of power? It makes 0 sense.
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The whole argument is simply ridiculous. We see clear evidence that Fujitora (Who's using his DF in his attacks btw) and Luffy are struggling against one another, yet it's to be suggested that Luffy drop down to 7-A+, making 0 sense (Even making less sense if the Pica downgrades go through to 7-B).
A potential 7-B... putting up an equal contest of power against a High 7-A... that's not a small gap.
A potential 7-B... putting up an equal contest of power against a High 7-A... that's not a small gap.
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@Cin
It's consistent, is the thing. His base power is enough to entirely halt Luffy's strikes, his offensive uses simply don't harm Luffy due to being....rubber. Almost as if gravity is akin to blunt force, both by common sense and by the feats shown to us.
Luffy doesn't overcome the most base usage of Issho's power. The entire bit of 'keeps it floating without being bothered' is simply a passive ability, as evidenced by him simply forgetting about it (similar to Shiki's ability to just let things float passively and not require constant attention, similar fruits and all).
It makes perfect sense. Gravity power = superior to Luffy. Luffy = not harmed cuz blunt damage.
It's like the Moriah island-bust. Punch = superior to Luffy. Luffy = not harmed cuz blunt damage
It's consistent, is the thing. His base power is enough to entirely halt Luffy's strikes, his offensive uses simply don't harm Luffy due to being....rubber. Almost as if gravity is akin to blunt force, both by common sense and by the feats shown to us.
Luffy doesn't overcome the most base usage of Issho's power. The entire bit of 'keeps it floating without being bothered' is simply a passive ability, as evidenced by him simply forgetting about it (similar to Shiki's ability to just let things float passively and not require constant attention, similar fruits and all).
It makes perfect sense. Gravity power = superior to Luffy. Luffy = not harmed cuz blunt damage.
It's like the Moriah island-bust. Punch = superior to Luffy. Luffy = not harmed cuz blunt damage
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- Thread starter
- #114
Except Moriah did hurt Luffy despite Luffy's protest, unless it's another case of the reappearing wounds 5 chapters after they happened.
Also, suggesting/assuming Fuji didn't require energy to keep the objects afloat suggests he was not being held back against Luffy, further supporting Luffy scaling to Fuji.
Also, suggesting/assuming Fuji didn't require energy to keep the objects afloat suggests he was not being held back against Luffy, further supporting Luffy scaling to Fuji.
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@CinCameron20; if the Pica revisions are going to affect this, perhaps it would be better to put this on hold until those are completed?
All things considered I still currently believe Xulrev makes the most sense here, but more things are coming up which could impact this. Calaca has mentioned that he has found some more feats too.
> Suddenly, his DF enhanced sword strikes--which btw left him panting in the middle of their fight, and even fatigued him by the end of it--are to be assumed dramatically weaker than his casual display of power?
It does make sense to me; it's like how a character can have planetary striking strength but extremely weak lifting strength. They're two different applications of power.
Fujitora's strikes haven't been shown to be anywhere near as impressive as his rubble feat.
All things considered I still currently believe Xulrev makes the most sense here, but more things are coming up which could impact this. Calaca has mentioned that he has found some more feats too.
> Suddenly, his DF enhanced sword strikes--which btw left him panting in the middle of their fight, and even fatigued him by the end of it--are to be assumed dramatically weaker than his casual display of power?
It does make sense to me; it's like how a character can have planetary striking strength but extremely weak lifting strength. They're two different applications of power.
Fujitora's strikes haven't been shown to be anywhere near as impressive as his rubble feat.
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@Damage - Like how any character scales from one feat, yet most of their other attacks lack in destructive power. That type of argument does not matter when I can pull various straw-man examples, or even direct examples from the manga to prove my point. We literally scale characters to other attacks, or some of their strongest attacks.
@Xulrev - You've provided nothing. And I've provided facts.
Fact: Luffy was undamaged by Raging Tiger and YES, Luffy does resist blunt force trauma, however: Luffy's elasticity is lost upon using Armament Haki (Except during Gear 4th), yet blunt damage from Fuji's attack did nothing to his arm, not even a scratch.
Fact: Fujitora hit Sabo--a LOGIA--with Raging Tiger.
Fact: Luffy blocked Fujitora's Gravity attacks, and took other hits off-panel.
Fact: We see both characters clash.
Now do me a favor: Show me Fujitora overpowering an attack from Luffy. He does no such thing. He sends Luffy flying, who is in a guard position, very similarly to the reverse happening. Both can break the other's guard and match attacks. AP and Dura both scale.
@Xulrev - You've provided nothing. And I've provided facts.
Fact: Luffy was undamaged by Raging Tiger and YES, Luffy does resist blunt force trauma, however: Luffy's elasticity is lost upon using Armament Haki (Except during Gear 4th), yet blunt damage from Fuji's attack did nothing to his arm, not even a scratch.
- So in other words, Luffy's resistance helped him no-sell the attack, and even without it (via Haki, which however amps his defense), still no-sold it.
Fact: Fujitora hit Sabo--a LOGIA--with Raging Tiger.
- Implication: Fuji can and has used Haki in his DF attacks.
- Implication: Fujitora uses his gravity attacks to damage both, and both can take hits.
Fact: Luffy blocked Fujitora's Gravity attacks, and took other hits off-panel.
Fact: We see both characters clash.
- Implication: We can suggest they are both comparable in attack power.
Now do me a favor: Show me Fujitora overpowering an attack from Luffy. He does no such thing. He sends Luffy flying, who is in a guard position, very similarly to the reverse happening. Both can break the other's guard and match attacks. AP and Dura both scale.
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> Fact: Fujitora hit Sabo--a LOGIA--with Raging Tiger.
This point is ignoring that Sabo only recently became a DF user, and likely doesn't have the ability to automatically turn into fire on reflex when hit. It looks to me like he is hit by the gravity, sure, and then consciously turns himself into fire.
That doesn't look like proof of Fujitora imbuing his gravity with Haki.
This point is ignoring that Sabo only recently became a DF user, and likely doesn't have the ability to automatically turn into fire on reflex when hit. It looks to me like he is hit by the gravity, sure, and then consciously turns himself into fire.
That doesn't look like proof of Fujitora imbuing his gravity with Haki.
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Sabo actually does automatically turn into fire on reflex: https://v93.**********.com/manga/One-Piece-Digital-Colored-Comics/0751-007.pngDamage3245 said:
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