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On consideration to Re-instate the Sailor Moon Speed Feat

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Iamunanimousinthat

Iamunanimousinthat

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A few weeks ago, one of the main speed feats of the Sailor Moon verse game under question. It was decided that this feat was misinterpreted and should be regarded as an immeasurable speed feat. And then it was considered that the immeasurable speed feat would be considered an outlier for the series. But I do not believe that is the case. In this thread I will show you that this is not the case at all.

We will begin with the first feat in question:

028.jpg


029.jpg


The light of Sailor Moon's crystal reaches the end of space-time seemingly instantly. This was deemed an immeasurable feat, and then an outlier.

I disagree with the case that this is an outlier as this is a major plot point and turning point in the story. In the second arc, Sailor Moon while in the future, could not use her Silver Crystal because the presence of the Silver Crystal of the future. The silver crystal can only work in the time period it's from.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act20/041.jpg

Neo Queen Serenity gives Sailor Moon a power up and allows her to use her crystal in the future. This is done by cutting across space and time. In other words, the silver crystals sends power from the past across time into the future for Sailor Moon to use.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act22/037.jpg

https://66.media.tumblr.com/20fc60706636a53287b73409f6a9f5b4/tumblr_inline_p23ww07gJK1sozx3j_540.png

Other supporting actions that happen, to show that this is not an outlier:

The power of the Black Crystal, the Silver Crystal's opposite, can move backwards and attack people across time:

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/032.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/033.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/034.jpg

Death Phantom's power created a storm inside the Corridor of the Space-Time Door:

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act22/006.jpg

Corridor of the Spacetime Door is a area where Time does not flow, Outside of Spacetime, Has no concept of distance or direction, literally indefinite place that erases things from existence

https://66.media.tumblr.com/4cce9cc16132789012ba2ec969079cf0/tumblr_ovkbkmKRjv1wyqlhjo1_1280.jpg

https://66.media.tumblr.com/5ca5c16d6144b3f66bdc42a0548378ee/tumblr_ovkbkmKRjv1wyqlhjo2_1280.jpg

It should be noted, Sailor Pluto naturally exists in this area, and is described to be outside of time and space. And a person needs Sailor Pluto's power in the form of a time key, in order to traverse this area safely

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act20/023.jpg

More Supporting evidence is that Death Phantom does a variation of the original feat. He distorts spacetime, and entire cast falls through darkness to the end of Space-time. Sailor Moon is able to do that destruction to spacetime, and bring everyone back from the end of spacetime.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/040.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/041.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/043.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/044.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/045.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/046.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/047.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/048.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/049.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act26/003.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act26/004.jpg

So in conclusion:

To list all the feats:

1. The light of the Silver Crystal is able to reach the end of space-time instantly.

2. The silver crystal cut's across time and space

3. The dark crystal can attack backwards across time

4. Death Phantom can create storms in an area that has no concept of distance or direction and time does not flow

5. Sailor Pluto naturally exists within this area, and her power allows people to travel here without harm

6. Death Phantom can distort spacetime and physically move people to the end of space-time

7. Sailor Moon can undo that distortion and move people away from the end of space-time

These are more than enough to show that the immeasurable attack speed rating is not an outlier but a conisstent part of the arc and shouldn't be left out of the profiles.
 
Okay so here's the thing:

1) Sailor Crystal having 4D power is not the issue here. And neither is Sailor Crystal's attack speed. Issue is how the characters such as Usagi and NQS are able to utilize it properly. Because while the Crystal has shown 4D stuffs, it wasn't done properly or utilized properly by the users. The Sailor Crystal light empowering Sailor Moon and reaching at the end of Space-Time was done on a one time thing and that too when Sailor Moon's and NQS's life were endangered. It doesn't always do that or attack an enemy by hitting it's past present future. Furthermore, we haven't seen Usagi repeat any Immeasurable speed attack feat consistently in any other arcs barring Arc 5. Hence, Going by your argument we would rate Arc 1 Usagi as Low 2-C. Why? Because she could use the Sailor Crystal back then too and Sailor Crystal was stated numerous times to be infinite and Transcending Space-Time and has shown to distort Space-Time

2) Black Crystal works by Distorting Space-Time. That's a straightforward Space-Time Manipulation feat. Not the same requirements that match Immeasurable Speed

3) We have Timeless Voids Standards for that and the Space-Time Corridor isn't a void. It's a realm between Space-Time (As shown by the Scans you posted) that connects all the different eras of the Universe. Moreover, even Arc 2 Chibiusa, Mamoru, Sailor Senshis,etc could exist, walk, and interact with their surroundings freely. So it's not a true timeless void as the argument is presented to be. Furthermore the "Erased into the Depths of Space-Time" isn't literal but rather metaphorical as it means that anyone wandering into the realm without a Space-Time key would be lost forever without having any chance of being found as the realm is endless in size. Case in Point, Chibiusa was lost too and wasn't even erased.

4) By Arc 2, Sailor Moon already got BFR that can send anyone to anywhere and herself having resistance to Space-Time Manipulation. So for her to undo that distortion and move people away from the end of space-time isn't something that grants her Immeasurable Speed. Same thing for Black Phantom.


So Immeasurable Speed for anything above Arc 5 is a no no. There are other impressive feats to calc from such as The Stars meeting each other after crossing 25 Light Years, Hotaru reaching to Pluto when Galaxia arrives there,etc. Immeasurable Speed here is just an inconsistency before Arc 5 used by any Sailor Senshi.
 
1. The feat is repeated in the 4th arc, as confirmed by Kakyuu in the 5th arc, that the light of crystal spread across all space and time. (I can post the scan if needed) And the crystal sending power across time and space to work in the future is a major plot point in the entire arc.

2. "Black Crystal works by Distorting Space-Time. That's a straightforward Space-Time Manipulation feat. Not the same requirements that match Immeasurable Speed"

That's not he argument I made. The Black Crystal was able to send attacks backwards through time. The speed page specifically states (Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. )

3. Sailor Pluto says that Time does not flow in the Corridor. She also said that there is no concept of distance or direction. I've posted the scans above. I don't believe I called it a void in my original post, but it is Timeless as confirmed by Sailor Pluto's statements.

"Erased into the depths of Space-time" isn't a metaphor. That doesn't make sense for it to be taken as one. Sailor Pluto was explaining in detail the nature of the Void and why it was dangerous for Usagi to look for Tuxedo and Chibi-usa. Also Chibi-usa was abducted by Death Phantom and taken away from the Corridor shortly after being lost.

4. Death Phantom, distorted and destroyed spacetime, and we saw the team physically fall to the end of spacetime (confimred by their own statements). Sailor moon reversed this action. It's not a simple BFR. The damaged that was done needed to be undone or they would have no planet to return to.


And I don't think there are any incosistences to prevent this rating.

A) the senshi are not tagged by anything or anyone that isn't supernatural in nature or on their level.

B) Senshi are able to travel places instantly. All their attacks seem to have instant impact. And later one, their even able to attack across dimensions and unvierses.


And Antvasima I have asked some people to comment on this. Hopefully they are able to voice their opinion on this.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
And Antvasima I have asked some people to comment on this. Hopefully they are able to voice their opinion on this.
Click to expand...
Okay. That is appreciated.
 
Well, on our speed page, one of the qualifications of having immeasurable speed is by moving forwards and or backwards in time - " can go everywhere and everywhen." The Black Crystals first uses was to attack 20th Tokyo from 1000 years into the future as shown above Silver Crystal of the past cannot be used because of the Silver Crystal from the future, but she was able to use it's power in that moment as well as accessing the future Silver Crystal through NQS, stalemating it for a short time.
Crystayl Tokyo Shine


the amount of space-time breaching, distorting, countering and repairing are insane in Black Moon. I believe that it's a combination of both hax and immeasurable speed.
 
Actually the Silver Crystal have some 5-D powers due to transcend space and time

Anyway, tbh, i really don't think sailor moon in the 2nd arc is Immeasurable, yeah, there exist proof but in major case, she didn't scale to them (aka attacks speed) and is very doubtful that she had it, it would mean that even the fodder of the arc 3 sacle to this speed

But in my opinion, the one who can have possibly an immeasurable and don't scale to anyone is Death Phantom, he can appears anywere in the space time corridor, to the end of space time ect...
 
Oh I didn't see Iamunanimous's reply but here:

1) The Speed feat wasn't repeated in 4th Arc iirc. Kakyu showed how future Usagi's marriage lit up the Space-Time continumm. That doesn't equate to Arc 4 Usagi having the power as Future Usagi marriage takes place after 5th arc, when Usagi hits immeasurable.

2) Black Crystals Are Manipulating Space-Time to do so.

3) It being timeless doesn't match the Timeless Voids Standards on the wiki based on which infinity and immeasurable attack speed is given. You can literally see everyone walk into the place so no it's not a real timeless void unless you're telling me even Arc 2 Characters are Infinite Speed. Even then we haven't seen anyone getting erased or anything in the Corridor neither do we have sufficient proof.

4) Like I said before, it's a BFR but a powerful one that sends people throughout Space-Time. It doesn't grant them Immeasurable Speed because they aren't moving, walking, running,etc and reaching at different points in time in different places.

It's completely inconsistent because it'd upgrade everyone from Arc 1 to 5 as Immeasurable even though 95% have not showed any proper feat. This is extrapolation without any proper proof. Unless you can show me Senshis from Arc 1 to 4 moving through Space-Time via their movements alone.
 
@Dodo you do have a good point tbh

But again, I'm skeptical since Death Phantom uses a lot of Space Time warping hax
 
1. https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act54/022.jpg

Kakyuu says says specifically the light of their power traveling through space-time. Sailor Moon doesn't need to reach her final power to be considered Immeasurable. The speed page speceficially says, that the in order to be considered, "Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. "

Throughout the second arc and again in the 4th arc, we see the energy of the crystal and black crystal being able to traveling across both space and time.

2. The Black Crystal manipulates spacetime, but it also is sending attacks backwards through time. Tha'ts not just spacetime manipualtion.

3. It matches perfectly. Sailor Pluto says that time does not flow, and that direction and distance does not exist in the place. She also specifically states that in order for a person to travel there safely they need a timekey, which is an extension of her power. She also specifically states that anyone who travels without will become lost in time or erased from existence. This more than enough qualifies past the requirement for timeless voids.

When the girls are traveling thorugh the void, they are with Sailor Pluto. They also worry about Chibi-Usa and Tuxedo getting lost and try to find them before something bad happens to them.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/4cce9cc16132789012ba2ec969079cf0/tumblr_ovkbkmKRjv1wyqlhjo1_1280.jpg

https://66.media.tumblr.com/5ca5c16d6144b3f66bdc42a0548378ee/tumblr_ovkbkmKRjv1wyqlhjo2_1280.jpg

4. It is not just BFR. Death Phantom physically moves them to the end of spacetime. They physically fall to the end of spaceime. They aren't teleported.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act25/044.jpg
 
1) Again, it was a post Arc 5 Usagi who did the feat when Marrying Mamoru. It's not Usagi herself in any arcs previous to arc 5 that did such a feat.

2) That IS Space-Time Manipulation. Occam's Razor dictates that they used Space-Time Manipulation to do those feats.

3) No it absolutely doesn't due to the fact that it Exists Between Time and Space and not beyond or outside Space-Time. If it matched then no Senshi and Mamoru would be able to travel in there. Again they are not even in the slightest Infinite Speed in Arc 2 as it requires more proof for them to be Infinite Speed.

4) Refer to my 2nd comment. What Usagi does is BFR. What Death Phantom does is Space-Time Manipulation.
 
1. Lancer, you're mistaken. Look closely again at the scan I psoted. That's a scene from the 4th Arc. Specifically this one. That's not their marriage. That's their coronation.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act49/030.jpg

2. I'm not simply Space-Time Manipulation. It's more than that. Black Lady launched a Black Crystal monolith into the Earth of the Future, and that monolith send shockwaves backwards through time and attacked senshi in the past. It's not just simple space-time manipulation. It's another example of power physically traveling thorugh time.

3. I'm sorry. But I cannot acccept that. You're ignoring direct statements from Sailor Pluto herself about her own dimension. She says:

A) Time does not flow there

B) There is no concept of Distance and Direction

C) To move there safetly you need a time key, an extension of her power.

D) Those who do not have a time key are at risk of getting lost forever, being erased, or being swallowed up and vanished

Everyone who travels there are either with Sailor Pluto or have a timekey. When Tuxedo and Chibi-Usa are lost in the area without a time key, everyone is afraid for their safety and wellbeing and try looking for them with Pluto' s help and guidance.

4. You're ignoring everyone physical falling to the end of space-time. Death Phantom does not teleport them, he moves them and Sailor Moon undoes his action by moving everyone back and undoing his spatial destruction. Even if, you argue that what SM did was BFR, she would still scale to Death Phantom being able to physically move to the end of spacetime and force other people to do it.
 
1) My mistake. I forgot about that Coronation Part in Arc 4. However, it's Sailor Crystal only lighting up the Space-Time continumm under a certain condition (The Coronation of Mamoru and Usagi) which was previously done in Arc 2 too under a different condition (Powering up a depowered Usagi). For them to have Immeasurable attack speed, you'd have to show that Usagi is capable of attacking an opponent normally and consistently through Space-Time. And iirc there really isn't any such feats besides these two instances where Sailor Crystal only lit up the Space-Time continumm.

2) It is just a good Space-Time Manipulation and nothing suggests it's Immeasurable Speed. If the black monolith could send shockwaves throughout the time then the timeline would've been disrupted instead of only Usagi and the gang getting affected along with the area. Heck the very existence of Black Monolith could affect the entire Timeline due to it's passive radiation and erasure. There is also the argument that NQS timeline is a separate timeline than the mainstream timeline but that argument is for another day.

3) If it doesn't follow the Timeless Voids Standards then it doesn't qualify in the wiki. But let's look at the stuffs. Pluto says Time doesn't flow in there as well as having no concept of distance or direction. As cool as it sounds, it is still a realm which is situated between Space and Time. Moreover, there is only one statement of Time Not Flowing There while the standards say that you'd have to consistently have statements of it being Timeless as well as it being completely Timeless as in characters inside the realm would not be affected by time flowing outside. As per the given requirements of the page, Space-Time Corridor would qualify as a Type 1: Timeless Void. Moreover, having the Space-Time key doesn't grant anyone Infinite Speed or anything. It just helps to guide you through the place to an exit.

4) The Physically falling part was an effect of his Space-Time Manipulation. It's literally stated multiple times in the scan you posted from Act 25 that Death Phantom distorted Space-Time and time travelled dragging the Senshis and Mamoru to the end of Space-Time. Usagi won't even Scale because all she does is BFR the Senshis to Earth.
 
1. Throughout the entire second Arc, the crystal of the present sends power cross time and space so Usagi can use her crystal in the future. Everytime she uses her power in the future, she's attacking someone through spacetime. This is explained many times several times.

2. https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/036.jpg

Sailor Moon even tells Sailor pluto that the shockwave "reached them through time". That's pretty much cut and dry. The Black Crystal can send attacks through time. Just as the Silver Crystal can for sailor moon.

3. It does follow the Timeless Void Standars. As the page states: "Voids that are stated to be timeless and are expressively shown to be such. They have many properties that would come with timelessness" Nothing says that there as has to be a repeated statement or that stating it once will disqualify it.

Properties that would come with timelessness is also in detail described by Pluto. Having a time key allows one to be able to travel in Corridor without being ffected by those properties.

4. The scan says that Death Phantom distorted spacetime and then every falls to the end of spacetime. It does not mention or say that he time travelled them there. Sailor Moon, says "We're slowly being drawn to the darkness".
 
1) Wut? It's NQS empowering Usagi who was depowered in the same era. Not the same thing as attacking some through Space-Time. Nothing implied that Everytime she uses her power in the future, she's attacking someone through spacetime unless you can show me proof.

2) No it's not cut and dry for the fact that Death Phantom Arc had a massive display of Space-Time distortion hax in the entire series. You have characters that can distort Space-Time easily and time travel almost twice every act in that arc along with showing other Space-Time haxes. So even if you say The Black Crystal can send attacks through time, most of the same it isn't the case of Immeasurable Speed and it's just Black Crystals are warping Space-Time to make their attacks reach into Usagi's Present Era.

3) This is the requirements from the page itself

  • The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing.
  • The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time.
  • Although not necessary per se, and not entirely accurate either, the characters who traverse it being described as "beyond the space-time" or "beyond time" would be supporting evidence.
Only Pluto states once that time does not flow. We clearly see passage of time whenever the characters are in the realm as the time they spend inside the realm is passed outside too. Everyone relevant in Arc 2 can move inside that realm. Having a Time Key only serves as a guide for the user to navigate through the realm and enter and exit out of gates and nothing more. So no, nothing stated or shown have enough proof to warrant Infinite Speed. It's the same thing with the Demon Realm in DBH. Not enough proof to warrant it as a true timeless void.

4) Refer to my 2nd point.
 
1. I already proved it in the OP

https://66.media.tumblr.com/20fc60706636a53287b73409f6a9f5b4/tumblr_inline_p23ww07gJK1sozx3j_540.png

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act22/037.jpg

After the power up from Neo Queen Serenity, Sailor Moon can use her powers despite the time differences by cutting across space and time. It's even shown in the scan Scarlet Moon posted as well. This is a major plot point in the arc.

2. I'm not following your logc. Because the characters have massive amounts of space-time hax, it makes it unbelievable that they can send attacks backwards through time? The Black Crystal Monolith sent shockwaves backwards through time, and Usagi says the shockwave reached them in their time. There is no reason to try to explain this away with a complicated explanation when it's written plainly in the text.

3.

"The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing."

Pluto says it's TImeless. Check.

"The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time."

Pluto says that realm has no concept of distance or direction. Speed = distance/time. When Distance = 0 and Time =0, Speed is indefinite.

Other than cinematic time, there is no depiction of time passing. When the girls return to the present from the future, no character asks them where they have been or comments on them being gone for sometime. It's like they're back as soon as they left or barely any time has passed.
 
1) Again, no one is denying Silver Crystal having 4D speed. It's the context in which it was used as no one besides Lambda Usagi and Sailor Cosmos were able to fully utilize the power of the Silver Crystal. I've already addressed the Silver Crystal crossing through Space-Time part. It was done inconsistently under specific circumstances as throughout Arc 1-4, Usagi's regular or normal attacks did not attack at Immeasurable Speed.

2) Dude, it's just Space-Time Hax which they are using to send their attacks in the past. Nothing implies they have Immeasurable Attack Speed as the entire arc focused heavily on Space-Time continumm and it's distortion.

3) Pluto only says once and the statement was Time Doesn't Flow Here which isn't fully clear. Furthermore, only Pluto says that. So that part is not fulfilled.

No Concept of Distance Ôëá Not having Time. We clearly see passage of time whenever the characters are in the realm as the time they spend inside the realm is passed outside too. You can literally see time passing in NQS era when they were in the Realm. And no, they weren't gone for that long for people to comment on their whereabouts.

So again, re-read the Timeless Voids Standards as there have been multiple Verses (Prominent Example is the Demon Realm in DBH) where similar realms with similar statements were shown and they weren't accepted as true voids.
 
1. I'm sorry that just doesn't make sense or seem fair at all.

You agree that the crystal has 4D power, but that isn't applicale to Sailor Moon because you don't think she's powerful enough to use it? It's her power. Her gaining that power was essential to her defeating Death Phantom. It was part of the plot. Why would she lose that power when she gets stronger in the next arc? And Sailor Moon recreated the Silver Crystal as Super Sailor Moon in the 4th arc before becoming Eternal Sailor Moon. She doesn't need to be Lambda usagi or Sailor COsmos to unlock it's full power, especially when those versions of her use all the Sailor Crystals not just the silver crystal.

It's not like she's ever got tagged by characters or objects that aren't supernatural in the other series. There is no reason she shouldn't get her ability

2. Again that's not a reason. A character having spacetime hax doesn't negate a character from also being immeasurable. A spacetime attack can also have immeasurable speed.

3. She says it. She doesn't need to repeat a statement for it to be true. That makes no sense. THat's just being redundant and bad story telling. She's the gaurdian of Time and daughter of Chronos the Father of Time. Why would her statements not be taken seriously. You would need to prove taht she's an untrustworthy source which is just impossible.

Time does not flow here, is 100% clear. There is nothing vague about that statement. And this is going to be the last comment because we're just going back and forth. And I don't think I could ever convince you.
 
Bumping this since it wasn't resovled.

To tally the opinons:

Scarletmoon56 agrees with this

TheCausality has some reservations but agrees that the character Death Phantom should get the update

Lancer45 disagrees with this
 
Forgot about this but let's see:

1) I agree Silver Crystal has 4D power which I have stated at the beginning of the thread. But it doesn't automatically give Sailor Moon all the powers and benefits of it as throughout the series she had to discover her powers and unlock them all to finally utilize the full power of Silver Crystal. That's what the story tells and shows about her power progression and limits in early arcs. If you think Usagi can fully utilize Silver Crystal then it'd make her Uni+ in Arc 1 but it's not the case at all. And being powered by 4D object doesn't mean you have Immeasurable speed especially when you have no concrete proof to back it up. Otherwise Naraku would have Immeasurable Speed too for having powers tied to Shikon Jewel that transcends Space Time.

2) By that logic every insta time Traveling character would be Immeasurable since they have Space-Time Hax.

3) You would need more proof for the Realm to fill in the criteria of True Void because i) It's located between Space and Time and not Beyond it, ii) It doesn't state anything about being a Timeless Void and only a vague statement that Time Doesn't Flow in there which is false as time passes for outside the same as inside the realm as Pluto could feel events unfold and not like every event is there all at once plus the fact that it lies between Space and Time, iii) Arc 2 Characters like Mamoru, Senshis, Chibiusa could move through that realm which contradicts it as none of the characters have displayed Immeasurable or Infinite Speed on their own and even in later arcs it takes them time to reach a place.

There is lack of substantial concrete proof of Space-Time Corridor being a True Void and based on the Strict Guidelines of Timeless Voids Standards, it'd only fall under Type 1. You need to have more proof as even Demon Realm in Dragon Ball Heroes have more proof comparatively of being Type 3 Void but is rejected as they aren't substantial or abundant. And honestly having Immeasurable speed Sailor Moon in Arcs 1-4 would cause massive error in Powerscalling as everyone and their mothers would be Immeasurable via Powerscalling. So like I said, I disagree with Arc 1-4 SM having Immeasurable Speed feats simply because lack of sufficient proof and contradictions both in terms of story and power progression.
 
1. Usagi doesn't utilize the full power of the silver crystal in the second arc, but she does unlock it's power to cut across space and time. This is essential to defeating the enemies in the second arc. Without it, she would be able to use her powers in the future. It makes no sense for this power to become locked away once the next arc starts unles

2.I don't understand what you're saying or reffering to by that comment. I never said that having space-time hax gives you immesurable speed. I said that is possible that a character can have immeasurable speed and spacetime hax

3. I made a seperate thread about the Corridor of Spacetime being a true void. There's no need to argue it here.

And can you list the specific contradictions in the story that go against it?
 
1) She uses the Light of Silver Crystal which illuminates the Space Time. It's not the same as attacking as Throughout the Series barring Arc 5, Usagi has shown no attacks aside from Light Manipulation that can attacks Space-Time.

2) A spacetime attack can also have immeasurable speed. That's what you said and there honestly is no proof of Immeasurable speed.


The contradictions are simple. If you go by Powerscalling you will have everyone from Mamoru, Chibiusa, Queen Serenity, Venus, Neptune, Nehelinia, Galaxia,etc having Immeasurable speed because they compare to Arc 2 Usagi in some ways. But let's just say that everyone relevant who scale off of Arc 2 Usagi are Immeasurable, then it makes Pharoah 90 Immeasurable but yet he takes time to drag his Galaxy for Assimilation with Earth, or how Nehelinia and Queen Serenity who are Immeasurable and yet took time to scout the Galaxy for immigration and not being able to move back or forth in Time to kill Usagi (in case of Nehelinia), or how Usagi and Senshis struggle against Uranus and Neptune and yet they haven't at all shown anything Immeasurable, or how Chibiusa and Sailor Amazons are Immeasurable in speed but can't move back and forth Time without using Time Travel,etc.
 
1. Every attack she uses in the future, crosses space and time to work. That's the point of the whole upgrade.

2. Because a spacetime attack can also have immeasurable speed. I'm not saying that the attack has immeasurable speed because it's a spacetime attack. Or all spacetime attacks have immeasurable speed. That's a false equivalence.

Releasing an attack in the future that reaches someone in the past is an example and proof of immeasurable speed.


3. This thread is for immeasurable attack speed not thier physical movement. If anyone would get physical movement it would be Death Phantom.

A. Pharaoh 90 doesn't take time to drag the the Tau Star System to earth. It appears instantly in the sky after he is released and tries to assimilate the earth. Nothing in the text states it took a while to get there.

B. Taking your time to find your next home isn't a contradiction to immeasurable speed. We don't know even know how long it took them. No time frame is given. It was said in other threads on this site that a c haracter doesn't have to constatnly show infinite or immeasurable speeds at all time to be considered immeasurable.

And again, this thread is about attack speed. Queen Nehehllenia can actually stop people from time traveling and put the earth in a timeloop.

C. Again, this is about attack speed. It fits that the other senshi and other characters can react to immeasurable attacks and have immeasurable attacks. The Silver Crystal can cut across space and time and Tellu was able to to counter it. The outer senshi scale to that.

It should be noted on their profile that they can react and block attacks that can cut across space and time.
 
1) Proof of that? Because she only ever used Light Manipulation to do that. Nothing else as far as I can remember.

2) You would need more proof that it's not Space-Time hax but Immeasurable Speed and I'm highly against that because, again, it makes Arc 2 Usagi and Chibiusa have Immeasurable Speed attacks via scaling

3) Refer to 1) and yes it Powerscales to everyone.

A) Yes it did take time. Chapter 37 is proof of that where Pharoah 90 opens a portal in the sky and the Senshis see the Tau System approaching. It was a Galaxy Sized system and didn't just appear in the sky because is completely impossible for a Galaxy to fit in the sky. It was approaching towards the Earth where the Galaxy would ultimately merge through the portal.

B) Having Immeasurable Speed doesn't allow you to take time because you are ignoring Time Itself. Even the Speed page makes it clear that Immeasurable Speed requires the characters to move back and forward in Time which they haven't done at all. Even regarding attack speed they have to show that their attacks always ignore Space-Time or attack anyone beyond Space-Time. Nehelinia stopping Time Travel and Timelooping earth is just Time Hax and not Immeasurable Speed.

C) Let's talk about attack speed. Your premise for Immeasurable Attack Speed is that Sailor Moon's light Manip can cross Space-Time and as such everyone scales to that. Which is false because no one reacts to her Light Manipulation and neither are all her attacks Cut through Space-Time. You're basing your entire argument on one ability of Usagi that can cross Space-Time and using that you're extrapolating everyone's attack speed as Immeasurable. For them to have Immeasurable attack speed, you would need substantial proof that Sailor Moon's attacks besides Light Manipulation is Immeasurable Speed. A similar case is with Golden King whose Grotesque Hand has Immeasurable Speed as it is the only ability of his that crosses Space Time but we don't give every other ability of his Immeasurable Speed scaled off from that. Heck the profile even states Speed of Light combat and reaction speed for his other attacks.
 
1. I posted the scans above in the OP. Sailor Moon's powers doesn't work in the future. After her update, she is able to cut across space and time to use her abilities in the future.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act20/041.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act22/037.jpg

Crystayl_Tokyo_Shine.jpg


https://66.media.tumblr.com/20fc60706636a53287b73409f6a9f5b4/tumblr_inline_p23ww07gJK1sozx3j_540.png

2. Black Lady launched the Black Crystal monolith into the earth of the future, and the monolith sent shockwaves throughout spacetime that reached the girls in the present. Unless the Black Crystal has a mind of it's own and can purposely

3.

A. Pharaoh 90 was assimilating the earth and then taking the earth to Galaxy. Not the galaxy to the earth.

B. See number 1.

C. My argument is that both the Silver Crystal and the Black Crystal have sent attacks across time. The Silver Crystal sending light to the end of space time and cutting across time and space to allow sailor moon to use her power in the future. The Black crystal sending shockwaves backwards in time. These two crystals have shown immeasurable capabilites. To block attacks from the silver crystal and the black crystal, you must be able to block attacks that can travel across time.
 
1) Because Silver Crystal is 4D and has the same power no matter what era they go? Your scans aren't proving any thing of them having all their attacks being able to cross Space-Time. Just Light Manipulation and the ability to draw power from Silver Crystal.

2) I have already addressed in my comments above. This is Space-Time hax at it's finest as the entire arc was focused on Space-Time shenanigans and nowhere does it state that the attack sent shockwaves throughout spacetime but that the attack reached Sailor Moon's time which is, like I said before, Space-Time hax as nothing about their attacks were stated to Cross Space-Time even when Black Lady was spamming Black Monoliths in the NQS Earth.

A) Again, it was clearly taking time and not an instantaneous process.

C) Again, Space-Time Hax is at play here. We don't see all of their attacks reach throughout Space-Time even when loads of Monoliths appeared in NQS Earth. And like I've said before in my 1st point as well as in the previous comment, drawing energy from a 4D power source that transcends Space Time and sending Lights across Space Time doesn't mean every attack you have has Immeasurable speed. This is extrapolation without proof and for all her attacks to have Immeasurable Speed, concrete proof of her having consistently shown to have Immeasurable attack speeds for regular attacks like energy blasts needs to be shown. I have even provided an example of Golden King who has loads of abilities but yet only his Grotesque Hand has shown the ability of having Immeasurable attack speed for which it was specifically mentioned instead of Generalizing every attack he has into Immeasurable. Moreover, Tellu didn't block it but rather Tanked both Jupiter's attack and Usagi's Moon Spiral Heart Attack none of which are Immeasurable speed.
 
I think that Lancer45Man makes sense here.

It is also better to be cautious with these types of significant upgrades.
 
1. Read the scans. They say that Sailor Moon cannot use her power in the future. After Neo Queen Serenity gives her and upgrade, she can send her power across time and space to be used in the future. The scans all desscribe and say that.

2. It doesn't say it. It shows it. Black Lady hit the earth with them monolith and that sent shockwaves backwards through time. It's on the page clear as day. Black Lady > attacks earth of the futue with the monolith > monolith sends shockwaves backwards through time > shockwaves almost dimensionally rips the past apart.

A) Becasue the senshi were actively trying to stop him.

C). That's deliberately false. We see shockwaves reach the present. We see the light of the silver crystal reach the end of space time. We see Death Phantom physically move everyone to the end of space time. These are all physical actions we see on panel.

The golden king example doesn't apply. The Silver crystal is the source of Sailor Moon's power. All her abilities come from the Silver Crystal.
 
And Lancer. You already agreed in thelast thread that this was an immeasurable feat. You were the first one to say that. Now you're back tracking and saying it's not? Your problem was that it was an outlier.
 
1) Again, empowering someone isn't the same as attack speed. And given the statements of how Silver Crystal transcends Space and Time and has unchanging power, drawing power from it isn't the same as attacking with Immeasurable speed.

2) Again that's Space-Time Hax and now you're strawmanning with no proof of your claims. You claimed it sent Shockwaves Throughout Space-Time but it only sent Shockwaves in the past to Usagi's era. The scan never states anything about it being sent throughout Space-Time nor does it say it Dimensionally Rips the past

A) They were helpless and had their energies drained and still it was shown that time passed between them being beaten and Saturn being summoned.

B) That's Space-Time Hax my dude. And it's not the first time that it happened in Fiction. Even Lavos can BFR/drag beings at the end of Time and we still don't give him Immeasurable Speed even though there are physical actions shown in the game when he does that.


And funny thing you mention the previous thread because I have said the same things there which I said here. I only considered the Space Time lighting as Immeasurable and only Arc 5 Usagi gets anything Immeasurable for being able to use the full power of Silver Crystal. I even commented how empowering someone through space time isn't Immeasurable attack speed and none of her attacks are stated to move through Space-Time minus her Light Manipulation. And no you're again Strawmanning here since Usagi cannot fully utilize the full power of Silver Crystal and getting powered by a 4D power source isn't the same as Having Immeasurable Speed otherwise all versions of DC's Flashes would have Immeasurable Speed for being powered by The Speed Force that exists outside the Multiverse.


This thread is honestly going nowhere as you're bring the same stuff from last thread plus some more which doesn't give anyone barring Lambda Usagi, Sailor Cosmos and Sailor Chaos Immeasurable Speed but only proves that how Sailor Moon's Light Manip has Immeasurable Speed.
 
"Again, empowering someone isn't the same as attack speed."

I never said that.

nd given the statements of how Silver Crystal transcends Space and Time and has unchanging power, drawing power from it isn't the same as attacking with Immeasurable speed.

Sailor Moon power is the silver crystal. Her entire existence is tied to the silver crystal. Super Sailor Moon, recreated the Silver Crystal herself in the 4th arc. You agree the Silver Crystal has an imemasurable speed feat: that scales directly to Sailor Moon. It's literally her power.

FACT: Sailor Moon cannot use her crystal in the future because it's from the present.

FACT: In order to use her crystal in the future, Neo Queen Serenity gave Sailor Moon a power upgrade that allows her to user her crystal in the Future by bringing power from the PAST into the FUTURE. That's power traveling across time.

I posted MULTIPLE scans showing people saying this is exactly what's happening.

2) Again that's Space-Time Hax and now you're strawmanning with no proof of your claims. You claimed it sent Shockwaves Throughout Space-Time but it only sent Shockwaves in the past to Usagi's era. The scan never states anything about it being sent throughout Space-Time nor does it say it Dimensionally Rips the past

It doesn't have to say it. IT SHOWS IT. Look at the scan. It literally shows shockwave tearing space apart. Sailor Moon says her body is being torn apart.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/034.jpg

Sailor Moon then tells Sailor Pluto that a shockwave REACHED her in the present. REACHED. In order for something to REACH someone it has to travel a distnce, in this case the distance was time. She did not say someone "time traveled shock waves to our time to attack us" or "Some sent shock waves to the past". She said, "Has something happened? A shcokwave distorition reached us in our time."

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act23/036.jpg

A) They were helpless and had their energies drained and still it was shown that time passed between them being beaten and Saturn being summoned.

Read the story again. That is 100% false. They lost their power AFTER the Galaxy was brought to the earth. And even after they all lost their energy, Sailor Moon was still fighting him and right after she sacrificed her self Sailor Saturn appeared and stopped Pharaoh 90. There was no waiting period or down time. It was non stop action after action.

B) That's Space-Time Hax my dude. And it's not the first time that it happened in Fiction. Even Lavoscan BFR/drag beings at the end of Time and we still don't give him Immeasurable Speed even though there are physical actions shown in the game when he does that.

Again! Read the scan. Death Phantom did not BFR anyone. He physically moved them to the end of Spacetime. There was no teleportation. It was all physically done.

I even commented how empowering someone through space time isn't Immeasurable attack speed and none of her attacks are stated to move through Space-Time minus her Light Manipulation.

This is bad argument. Sailor Moon's attacks use Light Manipulation. Princess Kaguya directly calls Sailor Moon's Rainbow Heart Ache a light. So if you say that

And no you're again Strawmanning here since Usagi cannot fully utilize the full power of Silver Crystal and getting powered by a 4D power source isn't the same as Having Immeasurable Speed otherwise all versions of DC's Flashes would have Immeasurable Speed for being powered by The Speed Force that exists outside the Multiverse.

This is another bad analogy. The Speed force exists independtly of the Speedsters. The Silver Crystal and Sailor Moon are directly reliant on each other. If you erase Barry Allen, the speed force doesn't get erased. If you erase Sailor Moon, the silver crystal gets erased as well. They are one in the same. Sailor Moon doesn't draw power from it. It is her power. Without it she is powerless.

Sailor Moon's Light Manip has Immeasurable Speed.

And now we finally have it. Yes. Sailor Moon's light manipulation has immeasruable speed. You agree with this. That's 100% agreement right here.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/117.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/118.jpg

Super Sailor Moon, uses Rainbow Moon Heart Ache, and Kaguya calls it a light, and a regular human who was near by also refers to it as a light. This is light manipulation.

You said that Sailor Moon's light manipulation is Immeasurable Speed. Yes. Then Rainbow Moon Heart Ache is an immearsurable attack.

And that's not all.

In the second Arc, Sailor Moon uses light manipulation to stop Death Phantom from crushing the Palace with Nemesis.It even says the light that crosses space and time.

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/030.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/031.jpg

https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/036.jpg

You agree that Sailor Moon's light manipulation has immeasurable speed. Sailor Moon uses light manipulation in the majority, if not all, her attacks. Therefore Sailor Moon's attacks have immeasurable speed.
 
This was never concluded and I hope to get it finished once and for all.

A tally:

Scarlet agreed with the original plan.

Acausality had revservations but agreed that Death Phantom should get it.

Lancer disagrees but ultimately agreed (or conceded) that Sailor Moon's Light Manipulation is immeasurable.

SSBxeno agreed with Lance (but this was before the light manipulation agreement)

I've also pointed that all if not, then most of Sailor Moon's attack include some degree of light manipulation or are based in light.

My ultimate chagnes to the profile would be:

1. Death Phantom would get Immeasurable speed. (Due to be able to physical move to the end of spacetime; sending attacks backwards in time)

2. Sailor Moon would get MFTL+ with Immeasurable attack speed and reactions. (Due to being able to attack Death Phantom, react to his attacks, and because the energy of her crystal spread across all spacetime instantly and reached the end of spacetime)

3. Every other character post Arc2 would get MFTL+ with Immeasurable reactions. (Due to being able to react to Sailor Moon's attacks and other characters who can react to Sailor Moon attacks.

4. Chaos infinite rating will just be changed to immeasurable, scaling from Death Phantom.
 
Here are some of the less frequently asked staff members that you can select from to ask to give input when there are not enough knowledgeable members available:

Promestein

SomebodyData

Darkanine

Reppuzan

Dragonmasterxyz

Celestial Pegasus

Monarch Laciel

Assaltwaffle

Saikou The Lewd King

Kepekley23

Antoniofer

Gemmysaur

PaChi2

Ultima Reality

DarkDragonMedeus

AKM Sama

Dargoo Faust

MrKingOfNegativity

Wokistan
 
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