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Thanks! I'll ask some tomorrow as Ive just about to go to bed!
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On consideration to Re-instate the Sailor Moon Speed Feat
- Thread starter Iamunanimousinthat
- Start date
- Status
- 462
- 47
But like...
Sailor Moon verse being Immeasurable is highly inconsistent to begin with and should most likely be deemed as an outlier.
Sailor Moon verse being Immeasurable is highly inconsistent to begin with and should most likely be deemed as an outlier.
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I agree with immeasurable speed.
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- Thread starter
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I have messaged some people. Hopefully they shall leave their thoughts.
@SSB it's actually not inconsistent, speed isn't really a big issue, everything happens instantaneous, and Sailor Moon needed that power to fight in the second half of the second arc, it would inconsistent for her to lose that power after the arc ended.
And when it comes to Sailor Moon and Outliers, this doesn't even rock the boat. Death phantom himself has a High 3-A feat and low 2-c statements, that were considered outliers and not recorded.
@SSB it's actually not inconsistent, speed isn't really a big issue, everything happens instantaneous, and Sailor Moon needed that power to fight in the second half of the second arc, it would inconsistent for her to lose that power after the arc ended.
And when it comes to Sailor Moon and Outliers, this doesn't even rock the boat. Death phantom himself has a High 3-A feat and low 2-c statements, that were considered outliers and not recorded.
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I've tried to get mutiple people to comment on here, but either i recieve no response, or they say they aren't familiar with the series to weight their thoughts.
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Well, in lack of better options, you could politely ask all of the remaining administrators and discussion moderators to give input here, after first writing an easy to understand summary here of what you want to get done.
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I will say this:
1. The light of the Silver Crystal is able to reach the end of space-time instantly.
2. The silver crystal cut's across time and space
3. The dark crystal can attack backwards across time
If this refers to speed and not AP or an ability such as space-time manipulation, it's immeasurable attack speed.
1. The light of the Silver Crystal is able to reach the end of space-time instantly.
2. The silver crystal cut's across time and space
3. The dark crystal can attack backwards across time
If this refers to speed and not AP or an ability such as space-time manipulation, it's immeasurable attack speed.
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Thank you for commenting Sera! I appreciate it.
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Bumping this again.
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Have you asked all of the staff members listed in the Sailor Moon (Universe) page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here?
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Yes. Most are currently inactive or have commented here.
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I've read sailor moon a couple of times (albeit long ago) so I'll address a few things here:
- Usagi has her silver crystal light manip at immeasurable speed, I agree with it. However, not all her attacks have immeasurable speed otherwise it makes everyone immeasurable in speed by default since most top tiers after the 2nd arc can react to attacks from usagi which is a huge contradiction.
- Disagree with black crystal having immeasurable speed. This is because black crystal was heavily focused on space time disruption hax rather than transcending spacetime or ignoring spacetime for its attack. So wiseman sending space-time distorting attacks in the past is space-time hax. This is also why death phantom/wiseman can move freely between the future to the end of the universe.
- Corridor is literally a place that is between the Space-Time as per statements. Plus it lacks only the concepts of distance and direction which means it has no space, and that time does not flow aka Time is still in that place but not non-existent. Moving here isn't a feat of immeasurable speed. Its a feat of resisting time manip which is proven when pluto timestops to sacrifice herself but everyone including mamoru is able to move in the time stop. Bottomline is that senshis moving in that area or wiseman making storms appear in that area has nothing to do with immeasurable speed. Only that they all have resistance to time manip and wiseman has Dimensional Travel for being able to reach into the corridor.
Tl;dr is that only Usagi should get Immeasurable attack speed and that too via her Light Manip. Just throwing my two cents here
- Usagi has her silver crystal light manip at immeasurable speed, I agree with it. However, not all her attacks have immeasurable speed otherwise it makes everyone immeasurable in speed by default since most top tiers after the 2nd arc can react to attacks from usagi which is a huge contradiction.
- Disagree with black crystal having immeasurable speed. This is because black crystal was heavily focused on space time disruption hax rather than transcending spacetime or ignoring spacetime for its attack. So wiseman sending space-time distorting attacks in the past is space-time hax. This is also why death phantom/wiseman can move freely between the future to the end of the universe.
- Corridor is literally a place that is between the Space-Time as per statements. Plus it lacks only the concepts of distance and direction which means it has no space, and that time does not flow aka Time is still in that place but not non-existent. Moving here isn't a feat of immeasurable speed. Its a feat of resisting time manip which is proven when pluto timestops to sacrifice herself but everyone including mamoru is able to move in the time stop. Bottomline is that senshis moving in that area or wiseman making storms appear in that area has nothing to do with immeasurable speed. Only that they all have resistance to time manip and wiseman has Dimensional Travel for being able to reach into the corridor.
Tl;dr is that only Usagi should get Immeasurable attack speed and that too via her Light Manip. Just throwing my two cents here
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@RM
1. All her major attacks use light manipulation.
2 Wiseman didn't send the shockwaves back in time. The Black Crystal did it on it's own when Black lady planted it on earth in the future.
3. The corroidor wasn't proof of Immeasurable attacks. It was for proof of inifinite speed, but I"m not really arguing that anymore. Also when Pluto time stopped, she was the one that allowed the senshi to move. Mamoru and black lady were still frozen in time, but the silver crystal (via the cutie moon rod) allowed them to move. But that's besides the point.
The changes that I proposed were:
Death Phantom
Immeasurable Speed (was able to physical move to the end of spacetime)
Sailor Moon
MFTL+ with Immeasurable attack speed and reactions (Energy from the Silver crystal reached the end of spacetime instatntly)
Changing her Lambda key from infinite to Immeasurable
Everyone else (Post arc 2)
MFTL+ with Immeasurable reactions (Can react to attacks from Silver Crystal or react to people who can react to attacks to Sivler Crystal)
Chaos
Chaning his base form from infinite to immeasurable
1. All her major attacks use light manipulation.
2 Wiseman didn't send the shockwaves back in time. The Black Crystal did it on it's own when Black lady planted it on earth in the future.
3. The corroidor wasn't proof of Immeasurable attacks. It was for proof of inifinite speed, but I"m not really arguing that anymore. Also when Pluto time stopped, she was the one that allowed the senshi to move. Mamoru and black lady were still frozen in time, but the silver crystal (via the cutie moon rod) allowed them to move. But that's besides the point.
The changes that I proposed were:
Death Phantom
Immeasurable Speed (was able to physical move to the end of spacetime)
Sailor Moon
MFTL+ with Immeasurable attack speed and reactions (Energy from the Silver crystal reached the end of spacetime instatntly)
Changing her Lambda key from infinite to Immeasurable
Everyone else (Post arc 2)
MFTL+ with Immeasurable reactions (Can react to attacks from Silver Crystal or react to people who can react to attacks to Sivler Crystal)
Chaos
Chaning his base form from infinite to immeasurable
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- No not all her major attacks are light manip. Where are you getting this notion from? Usagi has never shown any feat that her blasts and stuff affect people instantly or that it bypasses space-time to hit people in the past or future except for her light manip which iirc was only shown twice or thrice to be immeasurable. This also makes literally everyone & their mothers immeasurable in speed post arc 2 which isn't the case. It's like saying since Goku was able to absorb SSG in base form in BoG, then everyone whom he fought in base including 80% of the people in ToP like Krillin & Roshi are all Universal.
- Don't see anything to suggest it being anything more than Space-Time manip unless there's statements backing up the immeasurable speed such as Black Crystal's powers and attacks transcend or ignore Space-Time.
- Okay but its still not proof of infinite speed considering theres a bunch of characters in this wiki who can do the same and even better, yet they dont have infinite or immeasurable speed.
I agree with Lambda Usagi being Immeasurable since Silver Crystal and Lambda transcends Space-Time and predates creation. I dunno about Chaos but i suppose its okay since he predated creation. Rest of the stuff I disagree.
- Don't see anything to suggest it being anything more than Space-Time manip unless there's statements backing up the immeasurable speed such as Black Crystal's powers and attacks transcend or ignore Space-Time.
- Okay but its still not proof of infinite speed considering theres a bunch of characters in this wiki who can do the same and even better, yet they dont have infinite or immeasurable speed.
I agree with Lambda Usagi being Immeasurable since Silver Crystal and Lambda transcends Space-Time and predates creation. I dunno about Chaos but i suppose its okay since he predated creation. Rest of the stuff I disagree.
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All her major attacks use light manipulation. So many characters describe the light of her attacks. This is just one example:
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/117.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/118.jpg
And all her attacks in the second arc bypassed spacetime in order for them to work in the future. And Death Phantom has repeatedly states the silver crystal's power bypasses. All sailor moon's attacks are powered by the crystal. Transcending spacetime is an intrinsic quality of the silver crystal.
"This also makes literally everyone & their mothers immeasurable in speed post arc 2 which isn't the case. It's like saying since Goku was able to absorb SSG in base form in BoG, then everyone whom he fought in base including 80% of the people in ToP like Krillin & Roshi are all Universal."
I don't get this viewpoint.
The silver crystal can release immeasurable attacks. People (Tellu is the first one) can react and counter the silver crystal's attacks. Other characters can react and counter Tellu's attacks and so on and so on.
This is basic scaling.
Goku doesn't always fight for life and death, especially against Krillin and other weaker characters. However, Sailor Moon does fight for life and death and battles are always serious. Tellu was going to kill Chibi-Usa and other enemies were trying to kill her friends or Sailor Moon herself. I don't understand why it's logical to assume she doesn't use the full extent of her power in these fights when lives are on the line.
The others aren't getting Immeasurable speed ratings, or even attack speed. They're getting Immeasurable reactions, because that's specifically what they did.
---
Ignoring the last two points because they're not really important to the changes I want to implement.
Why do you disagree with the Death Phantom getting the immeasurable rating? He himself has a legit feat of physically moving to the end of spacetime. It's as cut and dry as possible.
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/117.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_loverofprincesskaguya/118.jpg
And all her attacks in the second arc bypassed spacetime in order for them to work in the future. And Death Phantom has repeatedly states the silver crystal's power bypasses. All sailor moon's attacks are powered by the crystal. Transcending spacetime is an intrinsic quality of the silver crystal.
"This also makes literally everyone & their mothers immeasurable in speed post arc 2 which isn't the case. It's like saying since Goku was able to absorb SSG in base form in BoG, then everyone whom he fought in base including 80% of the people in ToP like Krillin & Roshi are all Universal."
I don't get this viewpoint.
The silver crystal can release immeasurable attacks. People (Tellu is the first one) can react and counter the silver crystal's attacks. Other characters can react and counter Tellu's attacks and so on and so on.
This is basic scaling.
Goku doesn't always fight for life and death, especially against Krillin and other weaker characters. However, Sailor Moon does fight for life and death and battles are always serious. Tellu was going to kill Chibi-Usa and other enemies were trying to kill her friends or Sailor Moon herself. I don't understand why it's logical to assume she doesn't use the full extent of her power in these fights when lives are on the line.
The others aren't getting Immeasurable speed ratings, or even attack speed. They're getting Immeasurable reactions, because that's specifically what they did.
---
Ignoring the last two points because they're not really important to the changes I want to implement.
Why do you disagree with the Death Phantom getting the immeasurable rating? He himself has a legit feat of physically moving to the end of spacetime. It's as cut and dry as possible.
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- Because Energy blasts all have light emitting properties?? Her blasts having been stated to "Looks like light" isn't proof that it's the same light manip. Considering kaguya apready experienced that energy billions of years ago, its not far fetched to say she understood that ot was the same energy. Also another reason is because the Timeline doesn't lit up everytime usagi attacks with a random attack.
- Being powered by the Silver Crystal which transcend Space-Time Ôëá Arc 2 Usagi having Immeasurable speed. It just means usagi has access to infinite juice, not all the powers. Its like saying Horus Lupercal is 1-A for being backed up by and drawing energy from the Chaos Gods.
- Usagi never attacked anyone with immeasurable speed attacks minus with her light manip. Even if that were the case, it'd be an outlier since we dont see her attack anyone through space time post arc 3.
- Silver Crystal never emits immeasurable attack speed initially. Throughout the story Usagi was able to utilize its full power and this only happened in the end.
- "Goku doesn't battle for........." You missed the point. Goku was getting overwhelmed in base by multiple characters including Krillin and 18 for which scaling suggests they should be Universal too but they aren't. Because its called Inconsistency/Outlier. And if we go by your "She uses the full extent of her powers" then she would only be Universal+ in all keys which isn't the case here.
Others getting Immeasurable reaction for something thats misinterpreted is not okay. Its inconsistency/outlier.
See as per the Speed page, just moving through Time via movements isnt enough for Immeasurable speed. And since Death Phantom and the whole black crystal stuff were all about heavy space time manip mechanics, its safe to assume that Death Phantom did all of those via spacetime manip rather than having immeasurable speed. Unless you have statements that death phantom "Trascends Space-Time" in which case he'd qualify.
- Being powered by the Silver Crystal which transcend Space-Time Ôëá Arc 2 Usagi having Immeasurable speed. It just means usagi has access to infinite juice, not all the powers. Its like saying Horus Lupercal is 1-A for being backed up by and drawing energy from the Chaos Gods.
- Usagi never attacked anyone with immeasurable speed attacks minus with her light manip. Even if that were the case, it'd be an outlier since we dont see her attack anyone through space time post arc 3.
- Silver Crystal never emits immeasurable attack speed initially. Throughout the story Usagi was able to utilize its full power and this only happened in the end.
- "Goku doesn't battle for........." You missed the point. Goku was getting overwhelmed in base by multiple characters including Krillin and 18 for which scaling suggests they should be Universal too but they aren't. Because its called Inconsistency/Outlier. And if we go by your "She uses the full extent of her powers" then she would only be Universal+ in all keys which isn't the case here.
Others getting Immeasurable reaction for something thats misinterpreted is not okay. Its inconsistency/outlier.
See as per the Speed page, just moving through Time via movements isnt enough for Immeasurable speed. And since Death Phantom and the whole black crystal stuff were all about heavy space time manip mechanics, its safe to assume that Death Phantom did all of those via spacetime manip rather than having immeasurable speed. Unless you have statements that death phantom "Trascends Space-Time" in which case he'd qualify.
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@RM97 Speed page doesn't agree with you, just pointing this out.
"Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed."
"Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed."
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The next part of that sentence says "However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis."
In this context Death Phantom was using Space Time manip to move. Rather than moving through Space-Time via speed alone. If he had Immeasurable speed then he'd have personally arrived and in the past and killed Usagi himself. Moreover, he could send his minions through time to Usagi's timeline which also backs up his space time mankp.
In this context Death Phantom was using Space Time manip to move. Rather than moving through Space-Time via speed alone. If he had Immeasurable speed then he'd have personally arrived and in the past and killed Usagi himself. Moreover, he could send his minions through time to Usagi's timeline which also backs up his space time mankp.
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If he was using space-time manipulation then it's not movement alone.
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1. The story doesn't need to show her lighting up the timeline every time she attacks. That's redundant. It already showcased that the silver crystal's power transcends space and time. She attacks with the crystal's power. You're being way to nit picky.
And during her battle with Queen Nehellenia, her attacks were lighting up the entire timeline and showed the entire battle from the beginning to the end. Each attack she used was broadcasted across time and space.
2. No one is saying she has immeasurable speed. I'm saying her attacks are immeasurable because they transcend space and time. (also your hadou example fails here because the Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same)
3. Again that's not true. Every attack in the second arc, had to travel across space and time in order to work in the future. The text explained that in detail.
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/030.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/031.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/036.jpg
4. It didn't release it initially because she didn't get the powerup from Neo Queen Serenity to do so. That's basic story progression. She gets stronger as the story goes. After NQS gave her the powe up, her attacks were able to transcend space and time.
5. Death Phantom and Sailor Moon both have High 3-A feats in the second arc. Those were considered outliers.
A. Lighting up the timeline is a HIGH 3-A feat. We don't list it as AP, because it's an outlier and messes up the scaling.
B. Death Phantom creates a storm inside the space corridor which is essentially infinite. We made that an outlier too.
Giving them the immeasurable speed rating isn't an outlier or inconsistent. She lights up the timeline again in the 4th arc. She is never tagged by a non-senshi/super powered being.
Your comparison to DBS doesn't even make sense here or is it warranted. Sailor Moon doesn't do battle tournaments, nor does she spar with others for fun like Goku. When she fights its always a life or death situation.
And here is what our Speed page says:
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)
Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen."
Death Phantom was able to move to the end of Spacetime by movement alone. The series doesn't' use FTL to time travel, and to time travel you have to through the spacetime corridor.
Death Phantom moved to the end of spacetime from planet earth. One straight movement. He didn't teleport or disappear.
You're asking for more evidence that what's required.
At the end of the day. 4 things stay true.
1. The light of the silver crystal instantly traveled to the end of spacetime. And all of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space.
2. Characters are able to react to sailor moon's attacks which can cut across time and space and light up the entire timeline.
3. Death Phantom was able to physically move to the end of time.
4. Sailor Moon repeated the same feat from the second arc in the 4th arc.
And during her battle with Queen Nehellenia, her attacks were lighting up the entire timeline and showed the entire battle from the beginning to the end. Each attack she used was broadcasted across time and space.
2. No one is saying she has immeasurable speed. I'm saying her attacks are immeasurable because they transcend space and time. (also your hadou example fails here because the Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same)
3. Again that's not true. Every attack in the second arc, had to travel across space and time in order to work in the future. The text explained that in detail.
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/030.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/031.jpg
https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act24/036.jpg
4. It didn't release it initially because she didn't get the powerup from Neo Queen Serenity to do so. That's basic story progression. She gets stronger as the story goes. After NQS gave her the powe up, her attacks were able to transcend space and time.
5. Death Phantom and Sailor Moon both have High 3-A feats in the second arc. Those were considered outliers.
A. Lighting up the timeline is a HIGH 3-A feat. We don't list it as AP, because it's an outlier and messes up the scaling.
B. Death Phantom creates a storm inside the space corridor which is essentially infinite. We made that an outlier too.
Giving them the immeasurable speed rating isn't an outlier or inconsistent. She lights up the timeline again in the 4th arc. She is never tagged by a non-senshi/super powered being.
Your comparison to DBS doesn't even make sense here or is it warranted. Sailor Moon doesn't do battle tournaments, nor does she spar with others for fun like Goku. When she fights its always a life or death situation.
And here is what our Speed page says:
"Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)
Characters that are able to move backwards and forwards through time by movement alone qualify for immeasurable speed. However, due to general inconsistencies, and the fact that several fictions grant this ability to any character able to move FTL, they may be assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.
The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen."
Death Phantom was able to move to the end of Spacetime by movement alone. The series doesn't' use FTL to time travel, and to time travel you have to through the spacetime corridor.
Death Phantom moved to the end of spacetime from planet earth. One straight movement. He didn't teleport or disappear.
You're asking for more evidence that what's required.
At the end of the day. 4 things stay true.
1. The light of the silver crystal instantly traveled to the end of spacetime. And all of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space.
2. Characters are able to react to sailor moon's attacks which can cut across time and space and light up the entire timeline.
3. Death Phantom was able to physically move to the end of time.
4. Sailor Moon repeated the same feat from the second arc in the 4th arc.
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"If he had Immeasurable speed then he'd have personally arrived and in the past and killed Usagi himself. Moreover, he could send his minions through time to Usagi's timeline which also backs up his space time mankp."
That doesn't even make sense.
1. He can also space time manipulate himself in the past to kill her if he wanted too.
2. We wouldn't have a story if that's how it went. (now were really just grasping at straws)
3. A character can have spacetime manipulation and immeasurable speed.
That doesn't even make sense.
1. He can also space time manipulate himself in the past to kill her if he wanted too.
2. We wouldn't have a story if that's how it went. (now were really just grasping at straws)
3. A character can have spacetime manipulation and immeasurable speed.
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- Burden of proof is on you to show that all most of her attacks are immeasurable in speed since that's what you claimed. What's funny is that you imply SM uses the power of Silver Crystal which Transcends Space-Time for her attacks which would give her immeasurable speed. But if we go that way then every attack she made are all Universal+ in AP ergo all her keys should be Low 2-C since "She's using the power of Silver Crystal" to attack which was stated multiple times to be of Universal power.
- What Hadou example?? Also what are you even saying?? The main theme of the power progression in the series was how she managed to break and go beyond her limits shown. This was addressed earlier and if you think her being one with the Silver Crystal should give her immeasurable speed then why not give her Uni+ lvl AP for all her keys in every arc since she's clearly one with Silver Crystal which is stated numerous times to be Universal+ OvO
- Literally all those scans talk about the power of Silver Crystal and how it's Light is able to pierce through Space-Time. This was all addressed before and I even said this is why Usagi would get Immeasurable attack speed via light manip. Nothing in those scans suggests Usagi was using every single attack she had including energy blasts which are all Immeasurable.
- Again only her light manip was shown to immeasurable speed. Nothing states that her attacks Transcend Space-Time. Even those scans say how the Silver Crystal's power and light transcends space and time. Nothing in there suggests all her attacks transcend Space Time. That's a big extrapolation.
- already addressed the entire "Usagi's light manip is Immeasurable". You're not bringing anything new here rather than use rehashed argument that were already addressed. Also what's ironic is that you accept that Usagi's High 3-A feat is Outlier but claim her Immeasurable speed is legit.
- I made the Goku argument for proving what "Inconsistencies/Outliers" are but okay
- This one is hilarious because death phantom is able to arrive in the space-time corridor, the place where characters arrive just to time travel, to not only create a storm, but also capture chibiusa. So it just brings more gravity to the fact that Death Phantom can Time Travel as well as use Space-Time Manipulation for his movements. Him being able to "Go from Earth to end of Space-Time in a single line" doesn't mean jack when he was heavily implied to move through Space-Time via hax rather than speed alone.
- It was never stated that All of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space unless you can show me a scan of what you have written here.
- It makes sense because Death Phantom doesn't have immeasurable speed. Literally anyone who has read the second arc of Sailor Moon knows how the arc deals heavily with Space-Time Shenanigans and how most of the characters have cool Space-Time Hax. Was it ever stated that Death Phantom transcends Space-Time or that he exists outside of Space-Time?? No. Was it ever stated Death Phantom moves through Space-Time using speed alone?? No.
At the end of the day you're completely cherry picking to prove Immeasurable attack speed Sailor Moon from Arc 2 onwards. Your entire arguments are basically these:
Silver Crystal is stated to transcend Space-Time and arc 2 usagi can use silver crystal's full power to attack through Space-Time and hence most of her attacks are immeasurable and therefore, all characters post arc 2 have immeasurable reaction speed. And since usagi did another feat similar to this in arc 4, therefore it is consistent
Death phantom can send Space-Time warping attacks in the past and can move to the end of Space-Time so he is immeasurable in speed.
Literally all of these have been addressed and yet you keep bringing them up/using them again and again. I'm all in for Immeasurable speed sailor moon and even agreed how some characters would get immeasurable speed including Usagi via Light manip, Lambda Usagi, Sailor Cosmos, Chaos and Sailor Chaos. However there are lack of any concrete evidence for arc 2 charas to be even infinite speed, let alone immeasurable. But if you still want to use the same arguments over and over again without bringing anything new and solid to prove them having Immeasurable attack/reaction/movement speed, then I really have nothing to contribute here in this thread.
- What Hadou example?? Also what are you even saying?? The main theme of the power progression in the series was how she managed to break and go beyond her limits shown. This was addressed earlier and if you think her being one with the Silver Crystal should give her immeasurable speed then why not give her Uni+ lvl AP for all her keys in every arc since she's clearly one with Silver Crystal which is stated numerous times to be Universal+ OvO
- Literally all those scans talk about the power of Silver Crystal and how it's Light is able to pierce through Space-Time. This was all addressed before and I even said this is why Usagi would get Immeasurable attack speed via light manip. Nothing in those scans suggests Usagi was using every single attack she had including energy blasts which are all Immeasurable.
- Again only her light manip was shown to immeasurable speed. Nothing states that her attacks Transcend Space-Time. Even those scans say how the Silver Crystal's power and light transcends space and time. Nothing in there suggests all her attacks transcend Space Time. That's a big extrapolation.
- already addressed the entire "Usagi's light manip is Immeasurable". You're not bringing anything new here rather than use rehashed argument that were already addressed. Also what's ironic is that you accept that Usagi's High 3-A feat is Outlier but claim her Immeasurable speed is legit.
- I made the Goku argument for proving what "Inconsistencies/Outliers" are but okay
- This one is hilarious because death phantom is able to arrive in the space-time corridor, the place where characters arrive just to time travel, to not only create a storm, but also capture chibiusa. So it just brings more gravity to the fact that Death Phantom can Time Travel as well as use Space-Time Manipulation for his movements. Him being able to "Go from Earth to end of Space-Time in a single line" doesn't mean jack when he was heavily implied to move through Space-Time via hax rather than speed alone.
- It was never stated that All of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space unless you can show me a scan of what you have written here.
- It makes sense because Death Phantom doesn't have immeasurable speed. Literally anyone who has read the second arc of Sailor Moon knows how the arc deals heavily with Space-Time Shenanigans and how most of the characters have cool Space-Time Hax. Was it ever stated that Death Phantom transcends Space-Time or that he exists outside of Space-Time?? No. Was it ever stated Death Phantom moves through Space-Time using speed alone?? No.
At the end of the day you're completely cherry picking to prove Immeasurable attack speed Sailor Moon from Arc 2 onwards. Your entire arguments are basically these:
Silver Crystal is stated to transcend Space-Time and arc 2 usagi can use silver crystal's full power to attack through Space-Time and hence most of her attacks are immeasurable and therefore, all characters post arc 2 have immeasurable reaction speed. And since usagi did another feat similar to this in arc 4, therefore it is consistent
Death phantom can send Space-Time warping attacks in the past and can move to the end of Space-Time so he is immeasurable in speed.
Literally all of these have been addressed and yet you keep bringing them up/using them again and again. I'm all in for Immeasurable speed sailor moon and even agreed how some characters would get immeasurable speed including Usagi via Light manip, Lambda Usagi, Sailor Cosmos, Chaos and Sailor Chaos. However there are lack of any concrete evidence for arc 2 charas to be even infinite speed, let alone immeasurable. But if you still want to use the same arguments over and over again without bringing anything new and solid to prove them having Immeasurable attack/reaction/movement speed, then I really have nothing to contribute here in this thread.
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Burden of Proof?
I already shown multiple examples of silver crystal releasing energy at an immeasurable rate. You agree that the light manipulation is immeasurable.
I showed that Sailor Moon's attack all use light manipulation. The scan I posted, she was literally using light manipulation offensively to fight Death Phantom. She was in a battle and they were saying her power was cutting across time and space.
You're willfully ignoring this and moving goal posts.
"- What Hadou example?? Also what are you even saying?? The main theme of the power progression in the series was how she managed to break and go beyond her limits shown. This was addressed earlier and if you think her being one with the Silver Crystal should give her immeasurable speed then why not give her Uni+ lvl AP for all her keys in every arc since she's clearly one with Silver Crystal which is stated numerous times to be Universal+ OvO"
This is a non-argument and a strawman. This is about speed not AP. I already told you both Sailor Moon and Death Phantom have HIGH 3-A feats in this arc but those were considered outliers.
"- This one is hilarious because death phantom is able to arrive in the space-time corridor, the place where characters arrive just to time travel, to not only create a storm, but also capture chibiusa. So it just brings more gravity to the fact that Death Phantom can Time Travel as well as use Space-Time Manipulation for his movements. Him being able to "Go from Earth to end of Space-Time in a single line" doesn't mean jack when he was heavily implied to move through Space-Time via hax rather than speed alone."
Your'e being extremely disingenious.
Death Phantom physically moved to the end of spacetime in his battle with Sailor Moon and brings the others with him. Sailor Moon says, "she's falling into the darkness". Falling is a physical movement.
I am describing what is exactly on the paper. You going by assumptions.
"- It was never stated that All of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space unless you can show me a scan of what you have written here."
Again. What your'e saying goes against what's written in the manga. She cannot use her powers in the future until she gets her power up that lets her send power across time and space.
Every attack she uses in the future is moving across time. This is stated multuple times.
You're contradictin the story.
I already shown multiple examples of silver crystal releasing energy at an immeasurable rate. You agree that the light manipulation is immeasurable.
I showed that Sailor Moon's attack all use light manipulation. The scan I posted, she was literally using light manipulation offensively to fight Death Phantom. She was in a battle and they were saying her power was cutting across time and space.
You're willfully ignoring this and moving goal posts.
"- What Hadou example?? Also what are you even saying?? The main theme of the power progression in the series was how she managed to break and go beyond her limits shown. This was addressed earlier and if you think her being one with the Silver Crystal should give her immeasurable speed then why not give her Uni+ lvl AP for all her keys in every arc since she's clearly one with Silver Crystal which is stated numerous times to be Universal+ OvO"
This is a non-argument and a strawman. This is about speed not AP. I already told you both Sailor Moon and Death Phantom have HIGH 3-A feats in this arc but those were considered outliers.
"- This one is hilarious because death phantom is able to arrive in the space-time corridor, the place where characters arrive just to time travel, to not only create a storm, but also capture chibiusa. So it just brings more gravity to the fact that Death Phantom can Time Travel as well as use Space-Time Manipulation for his movements. Him being able to "Go from Earth to end of Space-Time in a single line" doesn't mean jack when he was heavily implied to move through Space-Time via hax rather than speed alone."
Your'e being extremely disingenious.
Death Phantom physically moved to the end of spacetime in his battle with Sailor Moon and brings the others with him. Sailor Moon says, "she's falling into the darkness". Falling is a physical movement.
I am describing what is exactly on the paper. You going by assumptions.
"- It was never stated that All of sailor Moon's attacks in the second arc and on word are described to be able to cut across time and space unless you can show me a scan of what you have written here."
Again. What your'e saying goes against what's written in the manga. She cannot use her powers in the future until she gets her power up that lets her send power across time and space.
Every attack she uses in the future is moving across time. This is stated multuple times.
You're contradictin the story.
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No ant, he is not making sense.
He is saying sailor moon's light manipulation is immeasurable but her attacks aren't immeasurable even though all her attacks have some degree of light manipulation.
--And I showed two scenes (i can post more) of her using light to attack people
He is saying that because Death Phanotm teleported to another dimension, the feat of him physically moving to the end of spacetime, is some sort of spacetime hax, even though in the scene he did not teleport but just physically moved.
That does not make sesne at all.
He is saying sailor moon's light manipulation is immeasurable but her attacks aren't immeasurable even though all her attacks have some degree of light manipulation.
--And I showed two scenes (i can post more) of her using light to attack people
He is saying that because Death Phanotm teleported to another dimension, the feat of him physically moving to the end of spacetime, is some sort of spacetime hax, even though in the scene he did not teleport but just physically moved.
That does not make sesne at all.
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Omg! I just remembered this!
Black Lady, Prince Demande and Prince Saphir are characters who can teleport and have access to timetravel and spacetime hax via the black crystal. (The same black crystal that sent shockwaves bacwards through time that people claimed to be via spacetime hax)
These characters had to travel to the end of spacetime via a portal!
I repeat, characters who can teleport, timetravel, and have crazy spacetime hax, could not get to the end of spacetime using their powers, but had to use a portal.
Death Phantom is the only character shown that was able to reach the end of spactime physically. He did not use a portal.
Again I repeat, death phantom reached the end of spactime physically , while other characters who could teleport, timetravel, and have spacetime hax, had to use a portal to reach there and couldn't use their own power.
If that doesn't seal the deal then I quit!
Black Lady, Prince Demande and Prince Saphir are characters who can teleport and have access to timetravel and spacetime hax via the black crystal. (The same black crystal that sent shockwaves bacwards through time that people claimed to be via spacetime hax)
These characters had to travel to the end of spacetime via a portal!
I repeat, characters who can teleport, timetravel, and have crazy spacetime hax, could not get to the end of spacetime using their powers, but had to use a portal.
Death Phantom is the only character shown that was able to reach the end of spactime physically. He did not use a portal.
Again I repeat, death phantom reached the end of spactime physically , while other characters who could teleport, timetravel, and have spacetime hax, had to use a portal to reach there and couldn't use their own power.
If that doesn't seal the deal then I quit!
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- already shown multiple examples of silver crystal releasing energy at an immeasurable rate. You agree that the light manipulation is immeasurable. I showed that Sailor Moon's attack all use light manipulation. The scan I posted, she was literally using light manipulation offensively to fight Death Phantom. She was in a battle and they were saying her power was cutting across time and space.
You only showed her light manip being immeasurable which I already agreed to. You never showed me any scans where it was stated that Most of her attacks transcend Space-Time. Nether do all her attacks are light based minus her light manip which she used against Death Phantom. Burden of proof falls on you to show me where was it stated that all her attacks transcend Space-Time.
- I fail to see how this is a strawman but let me elaborate. You said this: 2. No one is saying she has immeasurable speed. I'm saying her attacks are immeasurable because they transcend space and time. (also your hadou example fails here because the Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same)
First of all, only her Light manip is immeasurable as you have yet to show me a scan where it was shown or stated that most of usagi's attacks transcend space time. Secondly you're implying that since Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same then by it only proves that all of Usagi's attacks immeasurable. I replied with the notion that if we go by that logic, then Usagi even in arc 1 would be Universal+ since Silver Crystal even in arc 1 has Universal statement and being one with silver crystal would make her Universal.
- Your'e being extremely disingenious. Death Phantom physically moved to the end of spacetime in his battle with Sailor Moon and brings the others with him. Sailor Moon says, "she's falling into the darkness". Falling is a physical movement. I am describing what is exactly on the paper. You going by assumptions.
Except there's a thing called " Using common sense and logic". Going by whats written isnt a good argument since going by whats written in Re:Creators i can show altair being an omni. Death Phantom is a prolific space-time user. Him being able to use Space-Time hax to create a path to end of space time is more plausable than assuming he moved through space time via speed. Also him bringing others also gives more fuel to the spacetime hax since its not possible to move others through spacetime just by having immeasurable speed. Its usually done via spacetime hax or time travel.
- Every attack she uses in the future is moving across time. This is stated multuple times. You're contradictin the story.
Again can you show me scans of all of her attacks including her random energy blasts being stated to move across time without showing scans of her light manip moving through time???
- All of Sailor Moon's attacks dont use light manip. They are the energy of the silver crystal which is what the enemies sense and claim that its the light of the silver crystal. Its not literal but metaphorical way of saying they know the power of the crystal. If we go by the whole "even though all her attacks have some degree of light manipulation" then all of her attacks would be either lighting up spacetime or would shown or stated to have moved through spacetime.
- Omg really dude at this point youre just using circular reasoning. I have already addressed the death phantom moving part. All you need to do to prove me wrong is just find a statement where it either says that Death Phantom transcends space time or that Death Phantom can move through space time physically or via speed. Inb4 "But we see him physically move at the end of space time dragging the senshis and mamoru with him".
- Funny thing about that entire black lady argument is that No Portal of any sort was mentioned and we see them using hax to move at the end of Spacetime. Also quite ironic because I also remembered that Wiseman was Distorting Space-Time via black crystal which was why Usagi and the gang were able to reach the end of Spacetime
All you are doing is making claims without any concrete evidence and using whatever small implications to extrapolate the speed of the character. Honestly at this point idec about this thread since your entire premise for their immeasurable speed are based upon misinterpretation and extrapolation of two-three arguments with added cherry picking, circular reasoning, and non-sequitur. I have honestly said what needed to be said in this thread regarding the immeasurable speed that was proposed in this thread but ill have to leave this thread and let others decide.
You only showed her light manip being immeasurable which I already agreed to. You never showed me any scans where it was stated that Most of her attacks transcend Space-Time. Nether do all her attacks are light based minus her light manip which she used against Death Phantom. Burden of proof falls on you to show me where was it stated that all her attacks transcend Space-Time.
- I fail to see how this is a strawman but let me elaborate. You said this: 2. No one is saying she has immeasurable speed. I'm saying her attacks are immeasurable because they transcend space and time. (also your hadou example fails here because the Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same)
First of all, only her Light manip is immeasurable as you have yet to show me a scan where it was shown or stated that most of usagi's attacks transcend space time. Secondly you're implying that since Silver crystal and Sailor Moon are interchangeable and one in the same then by it only proves that all of Usagi's attacks immeasurable. I replied with the notion that if we go by that logic, then Usagi even in arc 1 would be Universal+ since Silver Crystal even in arc 1 has Universal statement and being one with silver crystal would make her Universal.
- Your'e being extremely disingenious. Death Phantom physically moved to the end of spacetime in his battle with Sailor Moon and brings the others with him. Sailor Moon says, "she's falling into the darkness". Falling is a physical movement. I am describing what is exactly on the paper. You going by assumptions.
Except there's a thing called " Using common sense and logic". Going by whats written isnt a good argument since going by whats written in Re:Creators i can show altair being an omni. Death Phantom is a prolific space-time user. Him being able to use Space-Time hax to create a path to end of space time is more plausable than assuming he moved through space time via speed. Also him bringing others also gives more fuel to the spacetime hax since its not possible to move others through spacetime just by having immeasurable speed. Its usually done via spacetime hax or time travel.
- Every attack she uses in the future is moving across time. This is stated multuple times. You're contradictin the story.
Again can you show me scans of all of her attacks including her random energy blasts being stated to move across time without showing scans of her light manip moving through time???
- All of Sailor Moon's attacks dont use light manip. They are the energy of the silver crystal which is what the enemies sense and claim that its the light of the silver crystal. Its not literal but metaphorical way of saying they know the power of the crystal. If we go by the whole "even though all her attacks have some degree of light manipulation" then all of her attacks would be either lighting up spacetime or would shown or stated to have moved through spacetime.
- Omg really dude at this point youre just using circular reasoning. I have already addressed the death phantom moving part. All you need to do to prove me wrong is just find a statement where it either says that Death Phantom transcends space time or that Death Phantom can move through space time physically or via speed. Inb4 "But we see him physically move at the end of space time dragging the senshis and mamoru with him".
- Funny thing about that entire black lady argument is that No Portal of any sort was mentioned and we see them using hax to move at the end of Spacetime. Also quite ironic because I also remembered that Wiseman was Distorting Space-Time via black crystal which was why Usagi and the gang were able to reach the end of Spacetime
All you are doing is making claims without any concrete evidence and using whatever small implications to extrapolate the speed of the character. Honestly at this point idec about this thread since your entire premise for their immeasurable speed are based upon misinterpretation and extrapolation of two-three arguments with added cherry picking, circular reasoning, and non-sequitur. I have honestly said what needed to be said in this thread regarding the immeasurable speed that was proposed in this thread but ill have to leave this thread and let others decide.
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Dude!
I already posted the scans of people saying the silver crystal's power transcends space and time. Scroll up and look at them.
You're being ridiculous. They're not gonna say she trancended spacetime every time she attacked. That's redundant. They've already explained it. There's no need to repeat it each time.
That's like saying Saint Seiyas attacks don't atomize people if the text doesn't say it does every time.
And now, the Light of Silver Crystal is a metapgor? And not real light. Dude! C'mon. People describe it as light but its not real light? —— And thanks for taking those scans out of context.
Black lady takes demande and saphir and then they go inside nemesis and then go through a portal at the heart of the reactor . And reach the end of spacetime by going through there.
They don't mention it but they show it. You can see the portal in the scan you posted and the pages before and after. Stop being ridiculously obtuse. They don't use any power; they just fly through the portal/opening in the reactor.
————
Death phantom, warps spacetime around him and then he physically moves to the end of the spacetime and drags everyone with him.
Those are two different actions. He warps space and then he moves everyone to the end of spacetime. He's s the one moving everyone.
———
You're being obtuse on purpose! The story doesn't have to hand hold the reader and explain everything in excessive. They showed it on the paper. They don't need to explain what happens when its shown. It's a visual medium.
I already posted the scans of people saying the silver crystal's power transcends space and time. Scroll up and look at them.
You're being ridiculous. They're not gonna say she trancended spacetime every time she attacked. That's redundant. They've already explained it. There's no need to repeat it each time.
That's like saying Saint Seiyas attacks don't atomize people if the text doesn't say it does every time.
And now, the Light of Silver Crystal is a metapgor? And not real light. Dude! C'mon. People describe it as light but its not real light? —— And thanks for taking those scans out of context.
Black lady takes demande and saphir and then they go inside nemesis and then go through a portal at the heart of the reactor . And reach the end of spacetime by going through there.
They don't mention it but they show it. You can see the portal in the scan you posted and the pages before and after. Stop being ridiculously obtuse. They don't use any power; they just fly through the portal/opening in the reactor.
————
Death phantom, warps spacetime around him and then he physically moves to the end of the spacetime and drags everyone with him.
Those are two different actions. He warps space and then he moves everyone to the end of spacetime. He's s the one moving everyone.
———
You're being obtuse on purpose! The story doesn't have to hand hold the reader and explain everything in excessive. They showed it on the paper. They don't need to explain what happens when its shown. It's a visual medium.
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And can I point out that RM said that the onus is on me to prove that death phantom physically moved himself and others to the end of spacetime, when usagi's statements say they're being pulled there and the page shows them physically falling.
But he can make the claim that death phantom created a path despite there's no statement suggesting that or saying he did that.
But he can make the claim that death phantom created a path despite there's no statement suggesting that or saying he did that.
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Just a heads up to the pople in this thread. This threads gotten too old and too many responses. But I have gotten brand new translations and materials. I created a new thread here:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3058912
That thread has all the new translations and images. I would like to continue this topic there.
If a mod could be so kind as to lock this thread. That would be wonderful.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3058912
That thread has all the new translations and images. I would like to continue this topic there.
If a mod could be so kind as to lock this thread. That would be wonderful.
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