Ninjago Star Tiering and Possible New Value

[YmTheSuper]

Please tell me why Ki was accepted as a UES over the simple scan of: Ki can be used to physically amplify their stats?

This is whataboutism using one of the most straight forward UES in fiction being Ki in Dragon Ball where literally all their physical stats rely directly on Ki and all their techniques and combat rely on it.

Nothing even remotely close to this is even implied in regards to Mindaro's magic. No correlation between his physicals and magic is shown except for him becoming weaker physically with his magic becoming which is directly stated to be not enough for a UES.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Because they also show during the series that their energy attacks scale to their physicals. It's not just ki amplifying their bodies.
This is why you don't use whataboutism arguments.

This is whataboutism using one of the most straight forward UES in fiction being Ki in Dragon Ball where literally all their physical stats rely directly on Ki and all their techniques and combat rely on it.

Nothing even remotely close to this is even implied in regards to Mindaro's magic. No correlation between his physicals and magic is shown except for him becoming weaker physically with his magic becoming which is directly stated to be not enough for a UES.

I addressed this already here

He doesn't have much "different type of attacks". When at normal power lvls, he can both make a creature as strong as he is and make a barrier to contain him

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I addressed this already here

If that's all there is, then I'm currently in agreement with YmTheSuper.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

If that's all there is, then I'm currently in agreement with YmTheSuper.

What else needs to be proven?

 

[Lloydblitzed]

This is whataboutism using one of the most straight forward UES in fiction being Ki in Dragon Ball where literally all their physical stats rely directly on Ki and all their techniques and combat rely on it.

Nothing even remotely close to this is even implied in regards to Mindaro's magic. No correlation between his physicals and magic is shown except for him becoming weaker physically with his magic becoming which is directly stated to be not enough for a UES.

I will address the other feats later

If that's all there is, then I'm currently in agreement with YmTheSuper.

U told me to prove a Non Physical System which I did, what is wrong with it?

 

[AigerTheKing]

Yes It's used as one of the many requirements for a UES not the sole requirement. The UES page itself states that it isn't enough.

Because they also show during the series that their energy attacks scale to their physicals. It's not just ki amplifying their bodies.

This is why you don't use whataboutism arguments.

His physical are said to be reliant on his magic. The same scan I just sent also explains he can make magical barrier strong enough to keep his creation from getting out of the dimension, which means his Creation = His other Attacks = his Physicals

This is very obviously an unrealistic sun.

Mindaro did not make this Sun. Jalena also implies what's painted is real. Many of his other paintings got realistic looking Celestial bodies anyways

Being able to use the GWs =/= surviving the golden weapons exploding and creating a star after becoming unstable, merging and being sent into space under the effects of the Megaweapon (Which itself is made of 4 other GWs).

The GWs were used to destroy the Mega Weapon, the Mega Weapon had no influence on that. Do we have to go back to the point of the GWs having a UES again?

There's no reason why being able to use the weapons requires surviving their destruction after becoming unstable.

When did the GWs ever get destroyed? Also, I think we keep forgetting what I posted on the 1st page. The GWs power have a physical effect on others, with their power going inside someone's body, which is the reason weaker beings die off trying to hold them

Nope, the weapons merging making them create a star automatically is Orange's argument. You can't deny the influence of the Megaweapon on the GWs which is shown in the show that makes it a special case that shouldn't be used to scale the GWs normally. The blog you're using to scale the feat agrees that the weapons collided with the Megaweapon further supported by Garmadon stating that they collided.

Collide ≠ Merging btw

I already went further into detail here. And most staff members agree that this feat in particular shouldn't be used to scale them.

They agree that the explosion feat specifically shouldn't be used

Nadakhan creating a copy of Ninjago that is illuminated:
1. A star is never shown in the pocket dimension.
2. The arguments for djinn magic being a UES are that Arrakor is weaker physically without his powers and that he Became stronger after regaining them which according to the page about universal energy systems is not enough for it to be considered a UES which would just make it simply a creation feat.
3. I don't even think anyone would scale to Nadakhan AP wise

Did you listen to Kai's wish?

Kai: Dad? (Grunts.) I wish you could take me back. Back to when things were good. Back to before all this mess, when people likes us and bad guys like you were never a problem. Back to the days when girls were crazy for me.

Which implies he remade Ninjago like it was before Nadakhan's crew stepped in

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

His physical are said to be reliant on his magic. The same scan I just sent also explains he can make magical barrier strong enough to keep his creation from getting out of the dimension, which means his Creation = His other Attacks = his Physicals

That is definitely not what it says. He gets physically weakened (in other words, tired) by the exercise of keeping the Chroma contained, not that he physically literally depends on his magic. This is stamina, not AP expenditure.

 

[AigerTheKing]

That is definitely not what it says. He gets physically weakened (in other words, tired) by the exercise of keeping the Chroma contained, not that he physically literally depends on his magic. This is stamina, not AP expenditure.

Still proves Non physical Energy System

 

[YmTheSuper]

Mindaro did not make this Sun. Jalena also implies what's painted is real. Many of his other paintings got realistic looking Celestial bodies anyways

Just because we see his paintings containing stars doesn't mean they are the same size as normal ones as we don't see characters enter these paintings for scale. But even if we do consider them 4-C creation feats they wouldn't scale to physicals because it isn't a UES and neither to the rest of his magic because it isn't a Non-Physical energy system. And even if we consider them as such I don't think 2 4-C pocket dimension creation feats are enough justification to upscale the main cast from Tier 7 to Tier 4.

The GWs were used to destroy the Mega Weapon, the Mega Weapon had no influence on that. Do we have to go back to the point of the GWs having a UES again?

I talked about this extensively here I don't think much more justification is needed.

Also, I think we keep forgetting what I posted on the 1st page. The GWs power have a physical effect on others, with their power going inside someone's body, which is the reason weaker beings die off trying to hold them

Yes but nothing implies that the AP required to use them is 4-C.

Collide ≠ Merging btw

The blog used in the op agrees that the Megaweapon and GWs colliding lead to their merging and the creation of a new Megaweapon and it's even implied in the show since the golden weapons disappear while revolving around the Megaweapon and then it starts flashing more brightly. If you have a different interpretation then explain it.

Did you listen to Kai's wish?

Which implies he remade Ninjago like it was before Nadakhan's crew stepped in

There's no reason to believe that he recreated the whole realm or anything like that when we only see Ninjago City being created and the sun is never shown so assuming it's there is just headcanon. Also again Djinn magic isn't a UES so it wouldn't scale to Nadakhan's physicals and also no character really scales directly to Nadakhan's physical so even if accepted It would just apply for him.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Jalena also implies what's painted is real. Many of his other paintings got realistic looking Celestial bodies anyways

This is level 4-A since it has a starry sky

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Just because we see his paintings containing stars doesn't mean they are the same size as normal ones as we don't see characters enter these paintings for scale.

If they are real, I see no reason why we should consider them "smaller than normal ones"

But even if we do consider them 4-C creation feats they wouldn't scale to physicals because it isn't a UES and neither to the rest of his magic because it isn't a Non-Physical energy system. And even if we consider them as such I don't think 2 4-C pocket dimension creation feats are enough justification to upscale the main cast from Tier 7 to Tier 4.

That's three 4-C feats and one 4-A one

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Pure headcanon. It's never mentioned or implied that the golden weapons need to be merged in the golden peaks or else a star would be created or that they would self destruct.

You were the one who said that Golden Peaks influenced the GWs becoming MW.

It's also never mentioned or implied that Garmadon could merge the golden weapons by himself.

Ok?

That is the reason he went to the golden peaks to merge them because it's the only way he can do so.

Ok?

We see the Golden Weapons revolving around the Megaweapon and then merging, even if the Megaweapon became powerless before colliding with the golden weapons it clearly had an influence on them that lead them to merge and go into space. You can't just deny what happened in the show.

The whole scene of them merging is weird, but the point remains: Megaweapon had no contribution to the AP, so the 4-C energy scales to 4 GWs, not 8 GWs. Cope with that.

The interpretations you're using aren't the only possible ones, for example:
The Megaweapon could have been made powerless when it merged or was merging with the golden weapons. (which would be more consistent with the show)

No, I debunked it.

In fact, Garmadon's statement could further support that:

Notice how he says "But when they collided" instead of "But then they collided",

It does not have to be “then”, “but when” is sufficient enough to put the timeline.

this would imply that the collision between the Golden Weapons and Megaweapon was something expected during the destruction of the latter by the former and that their collision was the moment when the Megaweapon got destroyed.

No? This is not implied by the wording at all. What kind of an excuse to shit on the verse is this?

(which makes complete sense since the we see the golden weapon revolve around the Megaweapon before colliding implying it has an effect on them thus still having its powers not to mention that the destruction of the Megaweapon could also refer to it losing its original state that created the time paradox and the creation of a new Megaweapon in its place after colliding with the Golden Weapons would make it considered destroyed).

Megaweapon does not make things revolve around it, very unfortunately to you: it acts as a wish-granted only when the person touching it wishes so. The reason of them revolving can be due to time paradox being finally solves, etc. — literally anything. This is episode is already weird as ****. MW being the reason of them revolving is a genuine headcanon made to shit on the verse, although, hey, what else could I expect?

Also I fail to see why the usage of "But when" implies that the destruction of the Megaweapon happened before its collision with the Golden Weapons like mentioned in the blog. If anything it would mean that they happened simultaneously.

Maybe use less hatred for the verse and more of a reading comprehension? Just a friendly advice.

 

[YmTheSuper]

You were the one who said that Golden Peaks influenced the GWs becoming MW.

You say that Garmadon merged the Golden Weapons in the Golden Peaks because if he merged them in another place they would create a star. I then say that this is never mentioned or implied in the show and that the reason Garmadon merged them in The Golden Peaks is because he is physically incapable of merging them by himself and that the Golden Peaks is the only place where he can do so. Then you say that means I conceded for some reason. Can you explain your logic?

The whole scene of them merging is weird

If you think the scene is weird to interpret then don't try to claim that your headcanons are the definitive uncontested truth.

Megaweapon does not make things revolve around it, very unfortunately to you: it acts as a wish-granted only when the person touching it wishes so. The reason of them revolving can be due to time paradox being finally solves, etc. — literally anything. This is episode is already weird as ****. MW being the reason of them revolving is a genuine headcanon made to shit on the verse, although, hey, what else could I expect?

I'm more inclined to believe the events that happened in the show than a blog based on headcanons.

And if the time paradox being solved is what lead to them revolving around the Megaweapon and shooting into space then they still wouldn't scale to this normally since it still is a special event started by outside influence.

Also for your claim that the Megaweapon doesn't randomly make things revolve around it, The Golden Weapons also don't randomly fly and collide into each other merging and shoot into space (They also revolve around around the Megaweapon of all things and collide with it and you're claiming it had no influence on them?)

And again since you consider the events of the episode weird then your arguments are also headcanon, the difference is that my argument is supported by the events shown in the show.

Maybe use less hatred for the verse and more of a reading comprehension? Just a friendly advice.

If you think that disagreeing with some scaling in the verse makes me a hater then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[AigerTheKing]

That is definitely not what it says. He gets physically weakened (in other words, tired) by the exercise of keeping the Chroma contained, not that he physically literally depends on his magic. This is stamina, not AP expenditure.

That's not what I completetly meant. This is our Non Physical ES guidelines:

In order to qualify for a Non-physical Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Limited Energy System, but for all techniques. Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency.

Since his other magical technique (magical barriers) scales to his Creation, adding with the fact he can physically use that magical energy, it qualify for UES

You say that Garmadon merged the Golden Weapons in the Golden Peaks because if he merged them in another place they would create a star. I then say that this is never mentioned or implied in the show and that the reason Garmadon merged them in The Golden Peaks is because he is physically incapable of merging them by himself and that the Golden Peaks is the only place where he can do so. Then you say that means I conceded for some reason. Can you explain your logic?

Garmadon wasn't physically uncapable of doing so, he just did it here bc its the GWs birthplace

We are flying to the Golden Peaks, birthplace of the Golden Weapons.

Just because we see his paintings containing stars doesn't mean they are the same size as normal ones as we don't see characters enter these paintings for scale. But even if we do consider them 4-C creation feats they wouldn't scale to physicals because it isn't a UES and neither to the rest of his magic because it isn't a Non-Physical energy system.

My answer to Lephyr answers the Non-Physical System thing

Yes but nothing implies that the AP required to use them is 4-C.

It is, else the wielder would litterally die their energy since we see the GW energy physically affecting others. Another good example is Skylor being stated to explode if she tried to absorb FSM's power. Reason? Bc its too much power for her to handle

The blog used in the op agrees that the Megaweapon and GWs colliding lead to their merging and the creation of a new Megaweapon and it's even implied in the show since the golden weapons disappear while revolving around the Megaweapon and then it starts flashing more brightly. If you have a different interpretation then explain it.

GWs collide with the Future MW ---> obliderates the Future MW (We know thanks to S3 and S2 that if the 8 weapons merged, the Time Paradox wouldn't be fixed and Lloyd would be dead and would remember the MW, but he doesn't) ---> goes to make a Star in space. And mind you, the MW was heavily damaged after being hit by elemental blasts, unlike the GWs, which supports the idea they were destroyed on the spot

There's no reason to believe that he recreated the whole realm or anything like that when we only see Ninjago City being created and the sun is never shown so assuming it's there is just headcanon.

Kai wished for him to take him back where they were originally tho

also no character really scales directly to Nadakhan's physical so even if accepted It would just apply for him.

Lloyd and Cole do, they can harm him. Jay can take a blow from him too

This is very obviously an unrealistic sun.

That's the art style of the painting. But we know according to Jalena that what's in the paintings are real.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

And if the time paradox being solved is what lead to them revolving around the Megaweapon and shooting into space then they still wouldn't scale to this normally since it still is a special event started by outside influence.

This is wrong. This is a common "We stop what messed up the timeline" moment, it has nothing to do with AP scaling except for confirming the GWs wiped the MW. Unless u have a concrete argument of Garmadon wisthanding the power of the GWs coursing in his insides not scaling to him which, and I quote again, KILLS anyone not capable of handling it, I really don't see where you and Orange are going with those arguments. Also, according to you, Garmadon needs Tier 7 lvl of Energy to wisthand that power on multiple episodes without any problem which def works with the narrative, because apparently Tier 7 calcs made by weakened state characters, gigantic dragon who's size is assumed to be as big as Komodo dragon to for the sake of downgrading his AP to his size and FS Zane making an Ice Colum when he cover a whole planet in Eternal Winter are more reliable than Garmadon MW scaling. I genually think talking about what the MW and the GWs did is irrelevant, we know only 4 weapons survived and were completely functional, while 4 others were destroyed, so it scale to 4 weapons. We are getting circular for nothing

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You say that Garmadon merged the Golden Weapons in the Golden Peaks because if he merged them in another place they would create a star. I then say that this is never mentioned or implied in the show and that the reason Garmadon merged them in The Golden Peaks is because he is physically incapable of merging them by himself and that the Golden Peaks is the only place where he can do so. Then you say that means I conceded for some reason. Can you explain your logic?

You conceded that Golden Peaks influences the creation of MW the way it was, meaning that your previous points go null since literally the only time we saw them colliding outside of Golden Peaks was Wrong Place, Wrong Time… mind reminding what happened? Wait, wasn’t like star created there?

If you think the scene is weird to interpret then don't try to claim that your headcanons are the definitive uncontested truth.

The episode being weird does not, very unfortunately for your show of downplaying, mean that we cannot deduce what happened through the visuals and others’ statements.

I'm more inclined to believe the events that happened in the show than a blog based on headcanons.

Very unfortunately for you, the blog uses the canon information from the series and the official sources. You are the one who uses events based on your own beliefs just to shit on the verse, which is outside of my scope of the problem. Just cope.

And if the time paradox being solved is what lead to them revolving around the Megaweapon and shooting into space then they still wouldn't scale to this normally since it still is a special event started by outside influence.

They would, since they did it by their own energy and did not boost in power, unless you have a statement of it being the case, meaning that UES fully applies, once again, unfortunate for you. It’s probably sad to be a hater.

Also for your claim that the Megaweapon doesn't randomly make things revolve around it, The Golden Weapons also don't randomly fly and collide into each other merging and shoot into space (They also revolve around around the Megaweapon of all things and collide with it and you're claiming it had no influence on them?)

I am on the negation side. I simply negate your statements. You are the one who needs to prove here that Megaweapon actually contributed its own energy, since GWs were very specifically used to destroy it before colliding. Burden of proof fallacy, sorry.

And again since you consider the events of the episode weird then your arguments are also headcanon, the difference is that my argument is supported by the events shown in the show.

You are the one who is claiming that Megaweapon contributed energy to star creation, I am yet waiting for the proof, since I debunked this shit eons ego.

If you think that disagreeing with some scaling in the verse makes me a hater then I don't know what to tell you.

You literally come up with trillions of excuses and headcanons just to downplay the verse to hell… if someone was pushing for 9-A Saitama, you wouldn’t think he has a favorable opinion on OPM, would ya?

 

[REX9097]

7 page

 

[Lloydblitzed]

That is definitely not what it says. He gets physically weakened (in other words, tired) by the exercise of keeping the Chroma contained, not that he physically literally depends on his magic. This is stamina, not AP expenditure.

Might as well prove UES for all magic users then:

Spoiler: UES for Magic

Limited Energy System
Magic is made clear to not be an Element nor an Elemental Essence, and we also have WOG confirming Magic is a whole system, with many, many implications that its split in different kinds. Magic users can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (Like Fungus beating Reawakened with both a fire beam and explosives magic, or Hazza D'ur harming Cole with both blasts and a beam)

Non Physical Energy System
Magic users has shown that all their non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency like with the 2 previous examples. They have displayed the same about their Creation feats, like Mindaro being able to create the Chroma, who is as strong as his magic and create a magical barrier strong enough to trap his creation. Morever, we see that an increase in Magic amps their power, like with Clouse using Dark Matter to increase his magic potency, which is further stated by himself. Arrakore heavily implies to not be able to do anything to the Howlers while being powerless, which he further explains here. Upon regaining his magic, he's able to physically harm them, which implies that a loss of magic will also render them weaker, and the reverse would make him stronger

Universal Energy System
Magic users has shown to be able to channel their magic throught their physicals, such as the Wolf Mask Warriors, who, with the help of their Magical mask, can physically enhance themselves. Mindaro is also capable of physically channeling his magic. Additionally, Oni Masks such as the Mask of Hatred function on Oni Power, who is stated by Mystake (an Oni) to be Dark Magic, can not only increase power, but makes the user physically stronger. We also have Garmadon stating Dark Magic made him stronger. We can also see Nadakhan being physically affected upon a boost from a magical sword

 

[YmTheSuper]

Might as well prove UES for all magic users then:

Alright let's take a look at this. First of all, why are we considering Magic to be one singular unified energy system when there are many types of magic that function differently.
Djinn Magic (requires wishes to be used and Djinn have it since birth) is inherently different from dark magic (which either requires training to be obtained or using a spellbook in the case of regular people while it's an innate ability from birth for the oni) etc...

But if we ignore this let's take a look at the arguments used to make it a UES.

First we need to get the criteria of a UES.

Spoiler: Criteria

1. You follow the criteria of a Limited Energy System.
   1. Powers that scale to each other should
      1. Draw from the same source of power (or can convert between the different kinds of power)
      2. Use up a similar amount of power to each other.
      3. Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to.
2. You follow the criteria of a Non-Physical Energy System.
   1. A character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Limited Energy System, but for all techniques.
   2. They have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities.
3. You follow the criteria of a Universal Energy System.
   1. A character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Non-physical Energy System.
   2. They have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals.
      1. Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics.
      2. In the rare case that it is relevant for scaling the reverse should also be demonstrated: That a feat of non-empowered physical strength applies to the amount of supernatural power. Visual evidence of amplification is not considered necessary.

So let's check the arguments used.

Magic is made clear to not be an Element nor an Elemental Essence, and we also have WOG confirming Magic is a whole system, with many, many implications that its split in different kinds.

This does nothing to prove that all Magic is drawn from the same source of energy which is necessary to qualify for a limited energy system.

Magic users can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (Like Fungus beating Reawakened with both a fire beam and explosives magic, or Hazza D'ur harming Cole with both blasts and a beam)

While I completely understand the logic behind this reasoning, this only shows that certain magic users have spells with similar AP and It isn't indicated that they use a similar amount of Magic (Magical abilities and Spells that scale to each other should indicate that they use similar amounts of magic, the feats linked above scale similarly not because of that but because both scale directly to AP aka having similar showings.

Hazza D'ur harming Cole with both blasts

Also, I'm not sure if this counts as harming tbh.

Non Physical Energy System
Magic users has shown that all their non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency like with the 2 previous examples.

Where?

They have displayed the same about their Creation feats, like Mindaro being able to create the Chroma, who is as strong as his magic and create a magical barrier strong enough to trap his creation.

I don't see how this implies that all his abilities scale to each other.

Morever, we see that an increase in Magic amps their power, like with Clouse using Dark Matter to increase his magic potency, which is further stated by himself. Arrakore heavily implies to not be able to do anything to the Howlers while being powerless, which he further explains here. Upon regaining his magic, he's able to physically harm them, which implies that a loss of magic will also render them weaker, and the reverse would make him stronger

This should be fine.

Universal Energy System
Magic users has shown to be able to channel their magic throught their physicals, such as the Wolf Mask Warriors, who, with the help of their Magical mask, can physically enhance themselves.

Additionally, Oni Masks such as the Mask of Hatred function on Oni Power, who is stated by Mystake (an Oni) to be Dark Magic, can not only increase power, but makes the user physically stronger.

Both of these are just physical amps via using magical objects in this particular case masks, this is further supported by the fact that users of the oni masks like Harumi, Killow and Ultra Violet can't use magic in the first place and are just being amped by the masks.
Also for the mask of hatred it's a special case since it's whole thing is amping one's physicals via turning their body into fiery stone

Mindaro is also capable of physically channeling his magic

This means nothing if such channeling is never showcased to boost physicals or to be used in physical combat.

We can also see Nadakhan being physically affected upon a boost from a magical sword

The Djinn Blade has nothing to do with Djinn magic (the form of magic that Nadakhan uses), it's just a sword that makes it's user stronger via absorbing souls. It's a completely different system.

We also have Garmadon stating Dark Magic made him stronger.

This could mean many things, one such thing is that he used dark magic from the Realm of Madness on himself to become stronger and improve his physicals rather than increase the magic he has (since we also see that he gained two new arms it's plausible that he used the magic on himself to gain them). While some argument could be made for this being evidence I think the statement is really vague to reach a definitive conclusion and there isn't enough proof that he is talking about the amount of magic he is using increasing.

Overall while some solid arguments are made the reply above fails to prove some requirements like Magic originating and drawing from the same source, all magical attacks using the same amount of energy, that magic can be channeled to improve physicals and that an increase in magic boosts physicals.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Alright let's take a look at this. First of all, why are we considering Magic to be one singular unified energy system when there are many types of magic that function differently.
Djinn Magic (requires wishes to be used and Djinn have it since birth) is inherently different from dark magic (which either requires training to be obtained or using a spellbook in the case of regular people while it's an innate ability from birth for the oni) etc...

The point is that Djinn, Good and Dark Magic are part of the same system, but are seperated in different kinds, Just like the Element of Fire isn't the same as the Element of Metal, but they are still Elemental Powers. Also, Djinn Magic can be used by non Djinns, like Tanabrax using his Djinn Medallion to steal souls

This does nothing to prove that all Magic is drawn from the same source of energy which is necessary to qualify for a limited energy system.

The question says:

I noticed that D.R. so far has taken time to slowly build up the kinda underdeveloped magic system (Officially introducing magic types, making wishing power djinn magic, etc.)

Doc replied by:

We didn't have the intentional goal of sharpening the magic system, it's just been organically developing as we explore the Merged Lands.

This heavily implies that the magic types we know are part of a singular Magic system as Doc refers to magic types as such. Additionally, these two scans also implies that Dark Magic and Good Magic are part of the same concept as 2 opposite types of magic. Furthermore, to back up what Wu said, when Mindaro filled with dark stuff such as grief and anger, his magic got corrupted as he created a monster with no joy (Keep in mind that his Good Magic is used for creating happiness/Wonderful Creature and good things overall), and with the very same power, only with Good Magic this time, as explained earlier, he could use a technique of similar in power to cage him up. Also (Minor detail), in Spinjitzu Brothers, Garmadon simply refers Dark Magic/Dark Sorcery as Magic, and there's multiple instance where both Magic/Dark Magic are referred as such, with Djinn Magic also being simply referred as "Magic", Wu simply referring Clouse's Dark Magic as "Magic"....The point is: Djinn/Dark/Good Magic are just different types of power working under the same system, so yeah, it shouls be solid by now

While I completely understand the logic behind this reasoning, this only shows that certain magic users have spells with similar AP and It isn't indicated that they use a similar amount of Magic (Magical abilities and Spells that scale to each other should indicate that they use similar amounts of magic, the feats linked above scale similarly not because of that but because both scale directly to AP aka having similar showings.

Dude what ? Please re-read the guidelines

Alternatively, it would also suffice to show that the user can invest similar amounts of power into any given technique, should they want to.

Power = Magic in our context. If all their scalable techniques are shown to invest a similar amount of AP, then it counts

Edit: I also talked to a staff about this, we do not need to prove hax tricks like Teleportation and BFR use the same amount of power as scalable techniques like Creation/Fire manip abilities at all

Where?

Vangelis and Fungus examples

I don't see how this implies that all his abilities scale to each other.

Bc all his scalable abilities consist of 2 abilities: Magical Barriers and Creation haxes

Just the fact alone that all his attacks are powered by Magic is basically enough, which is further supported by Arrakore not being able to use anything while powerless (Because his abilities are reliant on magic) and Clouse being reliant on his spells to empower himself (Inciting all his techniques comes from spells).

Both of these are just physical amps via using magical objects in this particular case masks, this is further supported by the fact that users of the oni masks like Harumi, Killow and Ultra Violet can't use magic in the first place and are just being amped by the masks.

Yeah, that's exactly the point. By the use of magical items, they can amp their physicals. We have guidelines for this (Heck, there's other verse like GOW using this guideline in justifications)

In the case of characters using the energy of an external source, as long as the character shows feats in proportion with a certain amount of energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artifact, the feat will usually be attributed to the weapon alone, but can be considered an (universal/non-physical/limited) energy system for a Character + Weapon pair, if the character is capable of tapping into that power source to power such a system.

Besides, Rox who can use Magic on her own can increase her own physicals via Shatterspin or amps other people's physical stats (further confirmed here), and the Wolf Masks enhance other stats like AP, as shown with EMs, and we can use Clouse as a better example

Also for the mask of hatred it's a special case since it's whole thing is amping one's physicals via turning their body into fiery stone

The Oni mask of Vengence can also increase physicals, as we can see Mr E low diffing 5 Ninjas at once mostly physically, while having a harder time when he face Zane in Base Form. Its not just a single Oni Mask thing. Also, in Quest of the Lost Powers, when Zane was going throught old memories of himself, the blue energy of the FS Scroll was said be coursing throught his body when he was the Ice Emperor, the same scrolls who are referred as magical

This means nothing if such channeling is never showcased to boost physicals or to be used in physical combat.

Mind you he was extremely weakened previously due to Stamina draining, and then his body got boosted in magical energy and he got back on shape and killed the Chroma later on. A better example of scaling to physicals is Aspheera's overall magic getting significanly stronger with the FS Scroll and physically one shotting the Ninjas, which she couldn't do before (Its impled her magic was mixed with Kai's Fire powers because her staff is magical anyways. Further confirmed here)

The Djinn Blade has nothing to do with Djinn magic (the form of magic that Nadakhan uses), it's just a sword that makes it's user stronger via absorbing souls. It's a completely different system.

The Djinn blade contains/is powered by Nadakhan's ancestors, who have Djinn Magic

This could mean many things, one such thing is that he used dark magic from the Realm of Madness on himself to become stronger and improve his physicals rather than increase the magic he has (since we also see that he gained two new arms it's plausible that he used the magic on himself to gain them). While some argument could be made for this being evidence I think the statement is really vague to reach a definitive conclusion and there isn't enough proof that he is talking about the amount of magic he is using increasing.

Its implied that Garmadon had access to Dark Magic by WOG. That's also not the point, because this is what our guidelines says:

Additionally, they have to demonstrate that they can channel their power through their own bodies in a way that quantifiably enhances them or otherwise allows scaling of their supernatural powers through their physicals.

The very fact he can enhance himself physically with Magic is what we need to know. On top of that, Nadakhan could massively amp Wu physically with magic, to the point where every single of his steps broke the ground. Even Clouse can physically enhance himself when his Magic got stronger (confirmed in my previous scan). My Djinn example with Arrakore also supports that idea

 

[Minaaaa]

I have concerns about Wu's dimension creating feat.

Firstly, it doesn't say he created the dimension, just that it was designed (and he didnt even say that he designed it).
Secondly, there are places in the dimension which he shouldn't know how they looked like Prime Empire and the Never realm/Ice emperor

He could've created given that his power is literally creation, but we need more evidence that he created it

However, before such feats can be considered valid, there must be conclusive evidence that the pocket reality in question was created by a certain character, and that they didn't simply transport other characters to one that existed previously.

also, do we have a timeframe for the creation

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Firstly, it doesn't say he created the dimension, just that it was designed (and he didnt even say that he designed it).

Then what happened? It, uh, created itself designed to teach Ninjas?

Secondly, there are places in the dimension which he shouldn't know how they looked like Prime Empire and the Never realm/Ice emperor

Jay and Nya told Wu about Skybound despite him forgetting it. You think they wouldn't tell about other advantures he knows they went through?

And nobody really debunked GWs UES and Garmadon & Cole points anyways.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I have concerns about Wu's dimension creating feat.

Firstly, it doesn't say he created the dimension, just that it was designed (and he didnt even say that he designed it).

With the context of the short, it wouldn't even make sense for him to not designed these places because he wanted to teach them the Virtues

Wu: Designed to teach the Six Fundamental Virtues of Spinjitzu? A wise discovery, Lloyd. (He uses his powers to lift the illusion.) And now, hopefully, you understand their importance

Secondly, there are places in the dimension which he shouldn't know how they looked like Prime Empire and the Never realm/Ice emperor

The Ninjas could've told him about how the place look like, just like how Wu knows about Nadakhan and what he did because the Ninjas talks to him about their adventures

also, do we have a timeframe for the creation

He said this to the Ninjas

Wu: I instructed them to go into the yard and meditate on the Six Fundamental Virtues of Spinjitzu, and instead they demolished my wall! (Zane enters the courtyard from a different door.)

And then left for a while before being "attacked" by his Creations, so he should've logically made it after the Ninjas got mad. Tommy also said that there haven't been another opportunity for a lesson (The only one being obviously the Ninjas not listening, so its very likely he made it between the time he left the Ninjas and the time where he got attacked)

 

[AigerTheKing]

Just call the other 3 staff back. This is getting too long for nothing

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Just call the other 3 staff back. This is getting too long for nothing

Can you make a summary post of your side? @Lloydblitzed
Also @YmTheSuper

Then I'll call staff once again also would make it easier for me to give my final thoughts

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Can you make a summary post of your side? @Lloydblitzed
Also @YmTheSuper

Then I'll call staff once again also would make it easier for me to give my final thoughts

That's pretty much done on the OP's first message (In the arguments/Counter Arguments section)

 

[YmTheSuper]

Also, Djinn Magic can be used by non Djinns, like Tanabrax using his Djinn Medallion to steal souls

Learning a language to use an djinn artifact =/= being able to use djinn magic, especially when Djinn magic is mainly wish magic and only Djinn have shown the capability to fulfill wishes with magic.

Furthermore, to back up what Wu said, when Mindaro filled with dark stuff such as grief and anger, his magic got corrupted as he created a monster with no joy (Keep in mind that his Good Magic is used for creating happiness/Wonderful Creature and good things overall)

I don't think it's ever mentioned Mindaro's magic is good magic, it's just a special kind of magic that he can use by making whatever he paints come to live and where his emotional state affects his drawings. Good and bad magic have never shown their properties being changed based on emotions. (Bad magic is inherently bad and the opposite for good magic. They are never shown to change properties based on the user's emotions)

Also (Minor detail), in Spinjitzu Brothers, Garmadon simply refers Dark Magic/Dark Sorcery as Magic, and there's multiple instance where both Magic/Dark Magic are referred as such, with Djinn Magic also being simply referred as "Magic", Wu simply referring Clouse's Dark Magic as "Magic"

Magic is used in the show to refer to any Supernatural ability that doesn't utilize elemental powers. It isn't really a very fleshed out energy system in verse (at least pre-Dragons Rising)

Djinn/Dark/Good Magic are just different types of power working under the same system, so yeah, it shouls be solid by now

1. You need to prove that all Magic that scales to each other draws from the same source or can convert from one type to another
2. Good, Dark and Djinn magic are not the only kinds of magic as many other spells aren't labeled as a specific kind of magic (Fungus' and Mindaro's magic for example)

Power = Magic in our context. If all their scalable techniques are shown to invest a similar amount of AP, then it counts

Nope the techniques that scale to each other need to invest Similar amounts of Power aka Magic

Edit: I also talked to a staff about this, we do not need to prove hax tricks like Teleportation and BFR use the same amount of power as scalable techniques like Creation/Fire manip abilities at all

Obviously since they can't be used in scaling AP in the first place.

Vangelis and Fungus examples

You need to meet the criteria of a limited energy system for all techniques, two showings for Vangelis and Fungus are not enough.

Bc all his scalable abilities consist of 2 abilities: Magical Barriers and Creation haxes

His magical barriers can't even be really scaled to AP in the first place since it's a sealing technique. Also even if it was scalable to AP I don't see how Mindaro having only two techniques that happen to scale to each other makes Magic as a whole a Non-Physical energy system.

and Clouse being reliant on his spells to empower himself (Inciting all his techniques comes from spells).

Again Clouse empowering himself via a spell doesn't indicate an increase in the amount of magic he uses. Also the fact that the Transformation spell is referred to as the most powerful spell kinda disproves that all spells scale to each other (It obviously can't be scaled to AP due to its nature but just taking a note that certain spells are considered stronger than others)

The book of spells itself is another reason why Magic shouldn't be a singular energy system since Lloyd and Wu who can't use magic were able to use a spell to banish Garmadon to the Cursed Realm simply by reading a spell in the Book of Spells, thus magic isn't really tied to an innate energy (at least not all of magic)

Yeah, that's exactly the point. By the use of magical items, they can amp their physicals. We have guidelines for this (Heck, there's other verse like GOW using this guideline in justifications)

The Oni mask of Vengence can also increase physicals, as we can see Mr E low diffing 5 Ninjas at once mostly physically, while having a harder time when he face Zane in Base Form. Its not just a single Oni Mask thing. Also, in Quest of the Lost Powers, when Zane was going throught old memories of himself, the blue energy of the FS Scroll was said be coursing throught his body when he was the Ice Emperor, the same scrolls who are referred as magical

You need to show that it's an increase in Magic that leads to the increase of physical strength, getting physically amped by using a magical object without it being shown that the amount of magic increases doesn't prove a UES (especially since the users of the Oni Masks and Zane can't use magic in the first place). If anything you need to prove that the magic in the Oni Masks increasing leads to them getting stronger.

Also the example used in GOW works because in that verse Magic is Life force and it's not the usage of the weapon that is used as a justification but rather the fact that it's used to absorb lifeforce which leads to an increase in his physicals (an increase in the amount of he energy system leading to an increase in physicals).

Besides, Rox who can use Magic on her own can increase her own physicals via Shatterspin or amps other people's physical stats (further confirmed here), and the Wolf Masks enhance other stats like AP, as shown with EMs, and we can use Clouse as a better example

Again you need to prove that it's an increase in Magical energy is what's leading to the increase of physicals. A technique/spell that strengthens physical is a completely different thing.

Mind you he was extremely weakened previously due to Stamina draining, and then his body got boosted in magical energy and he got back on shape and killed the Chroma later on.

He didn't defeat The Chroma. The Chroma was defeated because it got covered by bright colorful paint which is its weakness

A better example of scaling to physicals is Aspheera's overall magic getting significanly stronger with the FS Scroll and physically one shotting the Ninjas, which she couldn't do before (Its impled her magic was mixed with Kai's Fire powers because her staff is magical anyways. Further confirmed here)

No, the scrolls of forbidden Spinjitzu boost physicals and powers by themselves and it has nothing to do with boosting magic. We literally see them amping the Ninja (who can't use magic) and their elemental powers (which is a completely separate energy system)

The Djinn blade contains/is powered by Nadakhan's ancestors, who have Djinn Magic

Nadakhan gets stronger not by simply using the Djinn Blade but when he uses it to absorb the Souls of others. He is getting physically stronger because the Djinn Blade absorbs the Souls of others and their powers not because it increases his magic. (more supporting evidence)

The very fact he can enhance himself physically with Magic is what we need to know. On top of that, Nadakhan could massively amp Wu physically with magic, to the point where every single of his steps broke the ground.

Again what needs to be proved is the amount of magic increasing is what leads to the increase in physical strength and a magical spell that strengthens physicals isn't the same. (In the scan you sent Nadakhan just directly strengthened Wu physically, keep in mind that Wu can't use magic)

Even Clouse can physically enhance himself when his Magic got stronger

This doesn't show him getting physically stronger.

 

[YmTheSuper]

Can you make a summary post of your side? @Lloydblitzed
Also @YmTheSuper

Then I'll call staff once again also would make it easier for me to give my final thoughts

First of all, I need to mention that without the 4-C scaling from this thread the characters that would scale to it would be High 7-C (there's a 6-A feat but the evidence for it is really vague and unconvincing). I already talked about this in more extent here and here.

Also I've explained why Magic isn't a UES or a Non-Physical Energy System here and here since it's gonna be important for the purpose of this summary.

I've made a previous summary here but I'll go more into details now.

Now let's go over the feats used in the thread:

Gahraan manipulating stars and planets in his dream dimension:
This could technically be used to scale Gahraan and Wu's dream selves but there's no reason for base Wu and by extension the rest of the cast to scale to this since it's Wu's dream self that interacts with this feat.


Mindaro can make paintings come into life that contain stars in them:
1. This is a creation feat and since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES it shouldn't scale to his physicals.
2.There have been arguments made that Mindaro should scale to this since he created The Chroma who's as strong as his magic but this wouldn't really be usable since the only feats that Mindaro has using magic are creation feats. Also Mindaro's magic shouldn't scale to The Chroma since The Chroma is a creature that was made due to the sadness and grief of Mindaro with black and white paint and its weakness is joy and colorful paint and it was defeated by Wu and Garmadon spreading brightly colored paint on it. (They can't damage it with their normal attacks). Also the technique that Mindaro used to trap The Chroma can't be scaled to AP since it's a sealing technique not a destructable barrier.

Nadakhan creating an illuminated copy of Ninjago:
This is a creation feat and shouldn't scale to his AP because Djinn Magic is not a UES not to mention that a star is never shown in this pocket reality so it can't really be used to scale to star level.

The Golden Weapons create a star:
This is the feat that has been discussed the most and I will summarize most arguments relating to it.
1. The op is going under the assumption that the Golden Weapons regularly should scale to this feat which isn't the case since The Golden Weapons are shown revolving around the Megaweapon (The Megaweapon itself is made out of 4 other golden weapons) prior to fusing and being sent to space, this shows that this isn't a normal showing for the Golden Weapons but rather a special case where the Megaweapon had a clear effect on them. This makes it clear that this star creation feat shouldn't scale to the golden weapons normally. To further support this the contact of the Golden Weapons that the ninja survived used in the thread to scale them to the feat isn't even remotely close to the scale of the star creation feat.
2.Also even if we assume that the feat was preformed by the Golden Weapons alone it wouldn't really matter since we don't scale showing that utilize way more energy than usual to the rest of the feats even with UES (The star creation feat being the highest feat the GWs have shown utilizing more energy than usual since the GWs were acting in an unstable way after attacking the Megaweapon and prior to merging while the contact of the golden weapons creating a small explosion being a regular feat of the golden weapon) (Another example of the impact golden weapons contact being much weaker in effect than the star feat)
3.Lloyd having the powers of the GWs only refers to their elemental abilities (each Golden Weapon controls an element) and nothing to do with their scaling.

Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun:
This is the only feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since the dimension was created with the element of creation and elemental powers are a UES.

Due to Wu's feat being the only feat that can actually scale the mid-tiers of the verse (base ninja and characters that scale to them) to 4-C and due to the next best solid feat with consistent supporting feats being High 7-C I believe that the 4-C scaling is an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (Further supported by the fact that the 4-C feat is a pocket dimension creation feat which are prone to being outliers and inconsistent and to PIS)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

First of all, I need to mention that without the 4-C scaling from this thread the characters that would scale to it would be High 7-C (there's a 6-A feat but the evidence for it is really vague and unconvincing). I already talked about this in more extent here and here.

Because far less reliable calcs like weakened Morro's Storm are more reliable than Continental raising weapon and Nadakhan's magic giving Wu enough energy to one shot a planet with a sneeze according to you

Mindaro can make paintings come into life that contain stars in them:
1. This is a creation feat and since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES it shouldn't scale to his physicals.
2.There have been arguments made that Mindaro should scale to this since he created The Chroma who's as strong as his magic but this wouldn't really be usable since the only feats that Mindaro has using magic are creation feats. Also Mindaro's magic shouldn't scale to The Chroma since The Chroma is a creature that was made due to the sadness and grief of Mindaro with black and white paint and its weakness is joy and colorful paint and it was defeated by Wu and Garmadon spreading brightly colored paint on it. (They can't damage it with their normal attacks). Also the technique that Mindaro used to trap The Chroma can't be scaled to AP since it's a sealing technique not a destructable barrier.

The Ninjas hurled their tornado at him and you can clearly see the Chroma being illustrated as being harmed. He was destroyed AFTER the 2 were done filling his insides with colors by percing throught him. And please read the whole book, bc we know from Peri (who's magic is the same as her dad) that the magical barrier is a Forcefield, not a seal at all

The Golden Weapons create a star:

This is the feat that has been discussed the most and I will summarize most arguments relating to it.
1. The op is going under the assumption that the Golden Weapons regularly should scale to this feat which isn't the case since The Golden Weapons are shown revolving around the Megaweapon (The Megaweapon itself is made out of 4 other golden weapons) prior to fusing and being sent to space, this shows that this isn't a normal showing for the Golden Weapons but rather a special case where the Megaweapon had a clear effect on them. This makes it clear that this star creation feat shouldn't scale to the golden weapons normally. To further support this the contact of the Golden Weapons that the ninja survived used in the thread to scale them to the feat isn't even remotely close to the scale of the star creation feat.

The Ninjas used the GWs to destroy the Mega Weapon, doesn't add or change anything to the argument. U never had a proprer argument against UES either. And I quote from what the show said:
ONLY WEAPONS OF EQUAL POWER CAN STOP THE MEGA WEAPON

So, why do we remotly assume the Mega Weapon has ANY contribution to that Star feat, especially when Cole statement is supported by the fact everything went back to normal when they destroyed the weapon in question?

2.Also even if we assume that the feat was preformed by the Golden Weapons alone it wouldn't really matter since we don't scale showing that utilize way more energy than usual to the rest of the feats even with UES (The star creation feat being the highest feat the GWs have shown utilizing more energy than usual since the GWs were acting in an unstable way after attacking the Megaweapon and prior to merging while the contact of the golden weapons creating a small explosion being a regular feat of the golden weapon) (Another example of the impact golden weapons contact being much weaker in effect than the star feat)

AP =/= Area of Attack
Only the MW was actually shown unstable and you have no proof it used "more energy than usual" and Garmadon not scaling to the GWs is basically contradicting the very narrative of the show as well as S1-S2 in its entirety as it would make no sense for him to be capable of handling their power

3.Lloyd having the powers of the GWs only refers to their elemental abilities (each Golden Weapon controls an element) and nothing to do with their scaling.

Prove it

Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun:
This is the only feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since the dimension was created with the element of creation and elemental powers are a UES.

Due to Wu's feat being the only feat that can actually scale the mid-tiers of the verse (base ninja and characters that scale to them) to 4-C and due to the next best solid feat with consistent supporting feats being High 7-C I believe that the 4-C scaling is an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (Further supported by the fact that the 4-C feat is a pocket dimension creation feat which are prone to being outliers and inconsistent and to PIS)

You never answer to me as to why we must use a feat made by a weakened character over one done by a on shape Master Wu, as well as why making Ice Colums made by a weakened state Zane at that point of time who wouldn't be performing as well as an on shape Zane with the FS Scroll (he rebooted his entire system) are used over this feat (it covered the whole planet btw). Dawg even Wojira can create and lift a whole Moon and Nadakhan gave Wu the energy to disintegrate a whole planet away by a sneeze. I also don't see how the Tier 6 statement is somewhat "vague" bc this is one of the most blatant statements ever...

"The Scythe of Quakes was the first Golden Weapon created by my father. He used it to help form the continents that exist on Ninjago today"

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

First of all, I need to mention that without the 4-C scaling from this thread the characters that would scale to it would be High 7-C (there's a 6-A feat but the evidence for it is really vague and unconvincing). I already talked about this in more extent here and here.

Also I've explained why Magic isn't a UES or a Non-Physical Energy System here and here since it's gonna be important for the purpose of this summary.

I've made a previous summary here but I'll go more into details now.

Now let's go over the feats used in the thread:

Gahraan manipulating stars and planets in his dream dimension:
This could technically be used to scale Gahraan and Wu's dream selves but there's no reason for base Wu and by extension the rest of the cast to scale to this since it's Wu's dream self that interacts with this feat.


Mindaro can make paintings come into life that contain stars in them:
1. This is a creation feat and since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES it shouldn't scale to his physicals.
2.There have been arguments made that Mindaro should scale to this since he created The Chroma who's as strong as his magic but this wouldn't really be usable since the only feats that Mindaro has using magic are creation feats. Also Mindaro's magic shouldn't scale to The Chroma since The Chroma is a creature that was made due to the sadness and grief of Mindaro with black and white paint and its weakness is joy and colorful paint and it was defeated by Wu and Garmadon spreading brightly colored paint on it. (They can't damage it with their normal attacks). Also the technique that Mindaro used to trap The Chroma can't be scaled to AP since it's a sealing technique not a destructable barrier.

Nadakhan creating an illuminated copy of Ninjago:
This is a creation feat and shouldn't scale to his AP because Djinn Magic is not a UES not to mention that a star is never shown in this pocket reality so it can't really be used to scale to star level.

The Golden Weapons create a star:
This is the feat that has been discussed the most and I will summarize most arguments relating to it.
1. The op is going under the assumption that the Golden Weapons regularly should scale to this feat which isn't the case since The Golden Weapons are shown revolving around the Megaweapon (The Megaweapon itself is made out of 4 other golden weapons) prior to fusing and being sent to space, this shows that this isn't a normal showing for the Golden Weapons but rather a special case where the Megaweapon had a clear effect on them. This makes it clear that this star creation feat shouldn't scale to the golden weapons normally. To further support this the contact of the Golden Weapons that the ninja survived used in the thread to scale them to the feat isn't even remotely close to the scale of the star creation feat.
2.Also even if we assume that the feat was preformed by the Golden Weapons alone it wouldn't really matter since we don't scale showing that utilize way more energy than usual to the rest of the feats even with UES (The star creation feat being the highest feat the GWs have shown utilizing more energy than usual since the GWs were acting in an unstable way after attacking the Megaweapon and prior to merging while the contact of the golden weapons creating a small explosion being a regular feat of the golden weapon) (Another example of the impact golden weapons contact being much weaker in effect than the star feat)
3.Lloyd having the powers of the GWs only refers to their elemental abilities (each Golden Weapon controls an element) and nothing to do with their scaling.

Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun:
This is the only feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since the dimension was created with the element of creation and elemental powers are a UES.

Due to Wu's feat being the only feat that can actually scale the mid-tiers of the verse (base ninja and characters that scale to them) to 4-C and due to the next best solid feat with consistent supporting feats being High 7-C I believe that the 4-C scaling is an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (Further supported by the fact that the 4-C feat is a pocket dimension creation feat which are prone to being outliers and inconsistent and to PIS)

So to summarize:

• Let’s ignore all 4-C feats and concentrate on Tier 7 even though Star level is blatant and objective (AKA, we literally see the star created in the show and the confirmation from WoG multiple times), meanwhile calculations are a baseline to scale to and do not limit where the character scales to, they do not give you the true value, only the minimal to scale to (as otherwise, any person can get tons of Tier 9 & 10 calcs and “debunk” characters this way. The bomb can be 9-B in calc but High 8-C via scaling, etc.), and there are supporting feats for Tier 4 (even if some of them allegedly don’t scale to physicals, it still shows that the demonstration of Tier 4 feats in Ninjago), but **** it I want Tier 7 Ninjago!
• Revolving around something makes the energy increase just because I said so, although the said object was destroyed before and there is no evidence that it was the Megaweapon who made others revolve around it anyways, and idgaf about the massive blog that explained in-detail why MW could not contribute to the star creation energy-wise, no-no-no, 7-C Ninjago is bettah.
• Uhhh guys why don’t characters from the kids cartoon series destroy stars in every single occasion they appear? Damn, and you call that Star level! Obviously let’s go the Tier 7 (it’s not like they don’t destroy towns on every occasion either).
• Wu creation feat is fine because I didn’t come up with how to nitpick it.

Make your own conclusions with how this logic makes a good job on refuting Star level Ninjago.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Learning a language to use an djinn artifact =/= being able to use djinn magic, especially when Djinn magic is mainly wish magic and only Djinn have shown the capability to fulfill wishes with magic.

Im just disproving the "only Djinns can use Djinn magic" argument

I don't think it's ever mentioned Mindaro's magic is good magic, it's just a special kind of magic that he can use by making whatever he paints come to live and where his emotional state affects his drawings. Good and bad magic have never shown their properties being changed based on emotions. (Bad magic is inherently bad and the opposite for good magic. They are never shown to change properties based on the user's emotions)

Can you tell us what kind of magic does Mindaro, who creates Joy, use?

1. You need to prove that all Magic that scales to each other draws from the same source or can convert from one type to another
2. Good, Dark and Djinn magic are not the only kinds of magic as many other spells aren't labeled as a specific kind of magic (Fungus' and Mindaro's magic for example)

I did with Mindaro. Did you even read my argument saying that Magic can be twisted and corrupted, inciting that the same Normal/Good Magic can be turned into Dark Magic, which I proved with Mindaro?

Nope the techniques that scale to each other need to invest Similar amounts of Power aka Magic

So Magic users using similar amount of AP between all their magic techniques (and their only tricks) as well as the fact every single spells are produced throught Magic in the show isn't proving anything?

Obviously since they can't be used in scaling AP in the first place.

Doesn't seem like you understood that

You need to meet the criteria of a limited energy system for all techniques, two showings for Vangelis and Fungus are not enough.

I've shown that all their technique scale to each other, and since everyone follows the same system, I don't think 1 million examples are needed.

His magical barriers can't even be really scaled to AP in the first place since it's a sealing technique. Also even if it was scalable to AP I don't see how Mindaro having only two techniques that happen to scale to each other makes Magic as a whole a Non-Physical energy system

Mindaro is proof Dark Magic and Good Magic can use a similar amount of power against each other

Again Clouse empowering himself via a spell doesn't indicate an increase in the amount of magic he uses.

What?

Also the fact that the Transformation spell is referred to as the most powerful spell kinda disproves that all spells scale to each other (It obviously can't be scaled to AP due to its nature but just taking a note that certain spells are considered stronger than others)

Ok?

(i.e. feats of those techniques that need more power wouldn't scale to the techniques that need notably less)

The book of spells itself is another reason why Magic shouldn't be a singular energy system since Lloyd and Wu who can't use magic were able to use a spell to banish Garmadon to the Cursed Realm simply by reading a spell in the Book of Spells, thus magic isn't really tied to an innate energy (at least not all of magic)

That doesn't change anything.

You need to show that it's an increase in Magic that leads to the increase of physical strength, getting physically amped by using a magical object without it being shown that the amount of magic increases doesn't prove a UES (especially since the users of the Oni Masks and Zane can't use magic in the first place). If anything you need to prove that the magic in the Oni Masks increasing leads to them getting stronger.

Have u realised that without a source of magic....every magic users are powerless???? Why was the UES guideline via weapons was completly ignored before replying to me to begin with??

In the case of characters using the energy of an external source, as long as the character shows feats in proportion with a certain amount of energy used out of an external source like magical weapon/artifact, the feat will usually be attributed to the weapon alone, but can be considered an (universal/non-physical/limited) energy system for a Character + Weapon pair, if the character is capable of tapping into that power source to power such a system. This may need to be determined on a case-by-case basis.

Also the example used in GOW works because in that verse Magic is Life force and it's not the usage of the weapon that is used as a justification but rather the fact that it's used to absorb lifeforce which leads to an increase in his physicals (an increase in the amount of he energy system leading to an increase in physicals).

Pick that logic, and tell me that Rox enhancing ALREADY MAGICALLY ENHANCED WOLF MASK WARRIORS (them glowing blue at the start means they are enhanced by the Gong's magic) isn't a similar reasoning to GOW

Again you need to prove that it's an increase in Magical energy is what's leading to the increase of physicals. A technique/spell that strengthens physical is a completely different thing.

Im convinced this is nitpick at this point. Hum...I wonder how a energy increasing spell that amps my physical as well doesn't equat to an increase in magical energy...hmmm
https://imgur.com/a/SR0HsKd

No, the scrolls of forbidden Spinjitzu boost physicals and powers by themselves and it has nothing to do with boosting magic. We literally see them amping the Ninja (who can't use magic) and their elemental powers (which is a completely separate energy system)

Missinterpreting my argument again. The Scroll IS a magical item (read the scan again), and amps even magic users like Aspheera, who had her fire powers mixed with magic as proven earlier anyways

Nadakhan gets stronger not by simply using the Djinn Blade but when he uses it to absorb the Souls of others. He is getting physically stronger because the Djinn Blade absorbs the Souls of others and their powers not because it increases his magic. (more supporting evidence)

Yeah...the Djinn blade, a sword powered by the Souls AND the Magical energy of his ancestors are what amps him

Again what needs to be proved is the amount of magic increasing is what leads to the increase in physical strength and a magical spell that strengthens physicals isn't the same. (In the scan you sent Nadakhan just directly strengthened Wu physically, keep in mind that Wu can't use magic)

Doesn't matter. Amps throught weapons are still a valid qualifier for a UES page.

This doesn't show him getting physically stronger.

Is this a joke? Did u even read what happened to Clouse in Dark Island?


You added nothing new that hasn't either already been addressed, and u blantly just said a "nuh uh" to everything I just explained in details. Im getting sick and tired of that circular reasoning which goes nowhere. Not cool

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

That's pretty much done on the OP's first message (In the arguments/Counter Arguments section)

First of all, I need to mention that without the 4-C scaling from this thread the characters that would scale to it would be High 7-C (there's a 6-A feat but the evidence for it is really vague and unconvincing). I already talked about this in more extent here and here.

Also I've explained why Magic isn't a UES or a Non-Physical Energy System here and here since it's gonna be important for the purpose of this summary.

I've made a previous summary here but I'll go more into details now.

Now let's go over the feats used in the thread:

Gahraan manipulating stars and planets in his dream dimension:
This could technically be used to scale Gahraan and Wu's dream selves but there's no reason for base Wu and by extension the rest of the cast to scale to this since it's Wu's dream self that interacts with this feat.


Mindaro can make paintings come into life that contain stars in them:
1. This is a creation feat and since Mindaro's magic isn't a UES it shouldn't scale to his physicals.
2.There have been arguments made that Mindaro should scale to this since he created The Chroma who's as strong as his magic but this wouldn't really be usable since the only feats that Mindaro has using magic are creation feats. Also Mindaro's magic shouldn't scale to The Chroma since The Chroma is a creature that was made due to the sadness and grief of Mindaro with black and white paint and its weakness is joy and colorful paint and it was defeated by Wu and Garmadon spreading brightly colored paint on it. (They can't damage it with their normal attacks). Also the technique that Mindaro used to trap The Chroma can't be scaled to AP since it's a sealing technique not a destructable barrier.

Nadakhan creating an illuminated copy of Ninjago:
This is a creation feat and shouldn't scale to his AP because Djinn Magic is not a UES not to mention that a star is never shown in this pocket reality so it can't really be used to scale to star level.

The Golden Weapons create a star:
This is the feat that has been discussed the most and I will summarize most arguments relating to it.
1. The op is going under the assumption that the Golden Weapons regularly should scale to this feat which isn't the case since The Golden Weapons are shown revolving around the Megaweapon (The Megaweapon itself is made out of 4 other golden weapons) prior to fusing and being sent to space, this shows that this isn't a normal showing for the Golden Weapons but rather a special case where the Megaweapon had a clear effect on them. This makes it clear that this star creation feat shouldn't scale to the golden weapons normally. To further support this the contact of the Golden Weapons that the ninja survived used in the thread to scale them to the feat isn't even remotely close to the scale of the star creation feat.
2.Also even if we assume that the feat was preformed by the Golden Weapons alone it wouldn't really matter since we don't scale showing that utilize way more energy than usual to the rest of the feats even with UES (The star creation feat being the highest feat the GWs have shown utilizing more energy than usual since the GWs were acting in an unstable way after attacking the Megaweapon and prior to merging while the contact of the golden weapons creating a small explosion being a regular feat of the golden weapon) (Another example of the impact golden weapons contact being much weaker in effect than the star feat)
3.Lloyd having the powers of the GWs only refers to their elemental abilities (each Golden Weapon controls an element) and nothing to do with their scaling.

Wu creating a pocket dimension that has its own sun:
This is the only feat that can actually be used to scale the main cast to 4-C since the dimension was created with the element of creation and elemental powers are a UES.

Due to Wu's feat being the only feat that can actually scale the mid-tiers of the verse (base ninja and characters that scale to them) to 4-C and due to the next best solid feat with consistent supporting feats being High 7-C I believe that the 4-C scaling is an outlier and shouldn't be used to scale the main cast (Further supported by the fact that the 4-C feat is a pocket dimension creation feat which are prone to being outliers and inconsistent and to PIS)

@ActuallySpaceMan42 @Planck69 @Theglassman12 sorry for calling you back to the thread. Are you able to re-read OP and the present counterarguments presented by YmTheSuper and give your evaluation?

Interested parties that wanted to retackle this issue but didn't come when originally called smh @Agnaa @Qawsedf234

Additional staff members: @DarkDragonMedeus @Elizhaa @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am trying to fight the lag via shit internet atm.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Like I said, I agree with Wu's Tier 4, and the GW's being Tier 4 when they explode. What I disagreed with was trying to scale to those feats, but that's based on the UES which I have no clue about.

 

[Robo432343]

the argument is that no one actually scales and that its an outlier

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Like I said, I agree with Wu's Tier 4, and the GW's being Tier 4 when they explode. What I disagreed with was trying to scale to those feats, but that's based on the UES which I have no clue about.

1. U said u agreed with EPs being a UES and the Wu feat, so technically, u litterally agree with Wu scaling to it

2. The new argument with the GWs is that Garmadon scale to it bc he can handle their power without dying like others and that Garmadon + Wu scaling to Chroma who upscale from Mindaro who make Tier 4-C and 4-A dimensions (Basically, do u agree with UES for magic and Garmadon scaling to the GWs power running throught his veins and the Garmadon and Wu harming Chroma feat or not?)

 

[REX9097]

Like I said, I agree with Wu's Tier 4, and the GW's being Tier 4 when they explode. What I disagreed with was trying to scale to those feats, but that's based on the UES which I have no clue about.

So are you withdrawing your opinion at the moment?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

The Star feat is the only of 2 AP feats the Golden Weapons togheter have (the other one being created a Super continent), so wdym by "casual"? Our point isn't that they scale to the explosion scene anymore, but to the guy who can wisthand the GWs power coursing on him without dying

(Also, my UES yapfest previously was about Magic to scale Mindaro's casual dimensions feats to his physicals)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

We already went over the elements thing being UES as well as creation feats. But the star creations aren't implied to be casual compared to physical attacks and what not.

There is no real indication the Golden Weapons were at their peak when doing this feat, they just did this as a result of them colliding with each other. In fact, they should have already spent most of their energy at that point on destroying the Megaweapon, so it can in no way be their peak energy usage.
Also, the part of our argument is not only explosions, but also the fact that Garmadon and Cole can hold, which requires to have equal or greater power than those Golden Weapons, so it would scale regardless of whether GWs did it normally or at peak of their energy usage.