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Ninjago Anti-Feats
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Ninjago Star Tiering and Possible New Value
- Thread starter Lloydblitzed
- Start date
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Also since we are using characters tanking the blasts of the Golden Weapons to scale them to 4-C coming into contact there is a contradiction.
This thread and the blog are going under the assumption that the contact of the golden weapons should scale similarly to one holding the four weapons at once, and that both scale to the feat where the golden weapons get shot into space and form a star and there are problems with that.
We know that Garmadon in the pilots can't use all 4 golden weapons at once and that he was able to use them only after going to the realm of madness where he used dark magic to grow four arms. But we see that he managed to survive a blast that was formed after the golden weapons came into contact BEFORE the pilots which would lead to a contradiction. We also see the ninja in the end of the pilots tank the same blast and we know that they scale lower than Garmadon by that point.
So since holding the golden weapons at once and getting hit by a blast created from them coming into contact have different results this would imply one of two things:
1. Surviving Holding the Golden Weapons at once and getting hit by a blast coming into contact do not require the same level of power
2. Holding the golden weapons has nothing to do with stats but rather requires immunity to existence erasure
Also why would the contact of the golden weapons or holding the golden weapons together even require 4-C to survive since the 4-C feat required the Golden Weapons to react to the Megaweapon and to get send to space at very fast speed, the two feats are very different.
Due to this and all my previous arguments for the feat being an outlier I will disagree with the op.
This thread and the blog are going under the assumption that the contact of the golden weapons should scale similarly to one holding the four weapons at once, and that both scale to the feat where the golden weapons get shot into space and form a star and there are problems with that.
We know that Garmadon in the pilots can't use all 4 golden weapons at once and that he was able to use them only after going to the realm of madness where he used dark magic to grow four arms. But we see that he managed to survive a blast that was formed after the golden weapons came into contact BEFORE the pilots which would lead to a contradiction. We also see the ninja in the end of the pilots tank the same blast and we know that they scale lower than Garmadon by that point.
So since holding the golden weapons at once and getting hit by a blast created from them coming into contact have different results this would imply one of two things:
1. Surviving Holding the Golden Weapons at once and getting hit by a blast coming into contact do not require the same level of power
2. Holding the golden weapons has nothing to do with stats but rather requires immunity to existence erasure
Also why would the contact of the golden weapons or holding the golden weapons together even require 4-C to survive since the 4-C feat required the Golden Weapons to react to the Megaweapon and to get send to space at very fast speed, the two feats are very different.
Due to this and all my previous arguments for the feat being an outlier I will disagree with the op.
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I can debunk literally any ******* verse to 10-B by the same logic, these are blatant PIS.It's one thing to have 1 or 2 anti-feats. It's another matter when you have this many anti-feats especially when you are trying to scale characters above their usual showings and relying on only 2 feats that are far far above any other feat they would scale to. (Will probably add more anti-feats to the blog later because uploading to Imgur isn't working for me right now)Ninjago Anti-Feats
Yes, due to UES. Unless you can debunk it, lul.
Holding GWs would EE you if you are not as powerful AND do not have 4 arms, so they can be as powerful and still be unable to hold it because they have only 2 arms.
This is just lying atp, it was very explicitly said that you need to be as powerful to hold GWs/MW.
UES. This is the feat that GWs did when they contacted each other, so.
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The anti-feats wouldn't matter if the verse had more than two 4-C feats which isn't the case, not to mention that every other feat that can be used to scale them is far lower.
Also I'm not suggesting to downgrade them to 10-B or anything that low since there exists a good amount of Tier 7/Tier 8 feats that are pretty consistent.
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- Thread starter
- #125
Man Im sorry but what the heck? These arguments are mostly all related to LS or are just Character Induced Stupidity you can see in a lot of other shows in the wikiIt's one thing to have 1 or 2 anti-feats. It's another matter when you have this many anti-feats especially when you are trying to scale characters above their usual showings and relying on only 2 feats that are far far above any other feat they would scale to. (Will probably add more anti-feats to the blog later because uploading to Imgur isn't working for me right now)Ninjago Anti-Feats
Heavy case of CIS (A lot of cartoons display such stuff like that as well)
LS issue
Heavy CIS (He litterally keeps up with Vangelis later on, who is far above that Spider)
LS issue again
Clearly just the Ninjas lacking the LS to open the fortified door. (And this is contradicted with Cole having the strength to move mountains)
That just doesn't justify anything. If X character fear bullets, does that seriously makes him 9-B??
That's just the momentum and the force caused by the impact boat to make them go unconscious. I don't understand how is that an anti feat
LS ≠ AP
Nya created tech that is capable of harming the Ninjas, as shown in S1
LS crush again
That's a lock supposively made of Vengestone to keep the Ninjas from escaping, Cole would be weakened here
The Ninjas feared they would get LS crushed by the rocks
Really don't see what that justifies. Monsters could just be as strong as they are
Yeah...while taking bunch of blows from Yang
CIS yet again. This is legit just like Wonder Woman getting harmed by bullets even if her dura scales way higher
Getting LS crushes ≠ AP + Harumi isn't even star lvl
Overall, these are mostly not anti feats at all, and most of these feats have no relations to AP. We also have a rule about sharp objects harming people
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Gravity Falls has all of the cast scaling to 8-B and Relativistic+ despite them having more consistent Tier 10-9 and Superhuman speeds. As you see, just one primary feat and another supporting that is close but not even not in the same tier is already more than enough, and here we literally have two legit feats, and the anti-feats you mentioned work literally against any Tier 9-8-7 as well… so yeah, you are just lowballing for the sake of doing so.
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The gap between 8-B and Tiers 9/10 is way smaller than the gap between 4-C and Tiers 7/8. It's not even comparable.
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- Thread starter
- #128
I still fail to see why making an Ice Column and a feat done by a weakened Morro are used over these 2 feats being made more consistant (Not only that but the said characters who produces the feats keeps up with people scaling to the 4-C chain when fighting). Morever, the Ninjas keeps getting stronger over the course of the show, really don't see why we would downplay them so hard
This is just heavy downplay. There's many verses who are reliant on a few or a single feat with a solid and consistant chain to mark their rank, Tier 8 is such a downplay as the lowest ranks next to 4-C in the verse is Low 4-C individual GWs
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They could have destroyed the doors in all of these feats to achieve the same effect.
Also I'm using these anti-feats to show that the Ninja are not portrayed to be anything even close to star level.
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1. This is just whataboutism
2. I assume such verses would have other feats that are close to that feat. (a 1 or 2 tier jump wouldn't really be an outlier for most tiers)
The individual GWs scaling to Low 4-C literally relies on the same feat that puts them together at 4-C. This isn't really an argument.
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Still supposed to be an outlier in both cases, yet here we are. Another example is Wander over Yonder which scales to 4-C due to a single feat. I can show you wayyyy more. That’s just not how outliers work.
They are not portrayed as Tier 7 mfs either, just Wall level then.
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- Thread starter
- #132
No, they were clearly not using striking strength to open these doors, and mind you the Jay/Cole feat was done while they were powerless
No, that's just not how we qualifiy inconsistancies/outliers.
Lowballed weakened feats isn't a supportive argument either, especially when the character has stronger ones
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So... hum... class T characters having an hard time with normal locks and doors? "Elemental Masters are naturally stronger than normal humans" some of the feats they has an hard time with could be done by normal humans
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Stop derailing, this is an AP discussion, not LS one. Go ahead and downgrade the verse in terms of LS in your own separate thread.
Aolphl
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Simply P.I.S, not anything
OrangeFR
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What, is Saitama below average human in speed because he couldn’t catch a mosquito? Is Sonic wall level because he dies from spikes? Is Paper Mario wall level because he can’t break metal blocks without a stronger hammer? Is Goku less than planetary because he struggled to lift 40 tons in base? Of course not, anyone could spend like 5 minutes playing any video game or watching any show or movie or reading any book that has anything to do with powerscaling and nerfing them to average human level because of inconsistencies.
It's one thing to have 1 or 2 anti-feats. It's another matter when you have this many anti-feats especially when you are trying to scale characters above their usual showings and relying on only 2 feats that are far far above any other feat they would scale to. (Will probably add more anti-feats to the blog later because uploading to Imgur isn't working for me right now)Ninjago Anti-Feats
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The weapons that got "deformed" by the tier 4 feat shouldn't scale to a normal blast from the GW even in a full on UES
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- Thread starter
- #139
The blog already goes over this, read it. They kept all their normal powers and propreties, and the OP address that point
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I read it and it wouldn't matter, if that blast was tier 4 it would have "deformed" the weapon just like it happened in that other time.
EL_xWatcher1234x
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Agree with the OP
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Eh, I can understand the GW's Star Level, but I can't entirely agree with upscaling the Main Cast. That small explosion and the star feat are clearly on completely different scales.
I agree with Wu's Pocket Dimension though.
I agree with Wu's Pocket Dimension though.
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Alright, but do you agree on Lloyd having the power of the GWs or not?
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The scan doesn't say he has the powers of the GWs. It says the transformative powers of the GWs turn him into the Green Ninja.
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This is the right scan where it says he has the powers of the GWs (keep in mind the Ninjas powers came from them at the time)
The Ninjas would still upscales from their fight with MW Garmadon so even by ignoring the explosion feat, we can still scale them to the weapons
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I will link to my main counter-arguments throughout the thread here for convenience.
Outlier argument, response, another response, more responses, anti-feats to support it being an outlier, scaling contradiction, anti-feats matter because star level is much higher than any other feat that the base ninja could scale to.
To get a better idea you could also start reading from the first post i linked here because there are many more responses.
Outlier argument, response, another response, more responses, anti-feats to support it being an outlier, scaling contradiction, anti-feats matter because star level is much higher than any other feat that the base ninja could scale to.
To get a better idea you could also start reading from the first post i linked here because there are many more responses.
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Two issues though. First, it seems like they're saying he has the abilities of the GWs, not their AP. Secondly, you're saying at this period in the series, they get their powers from the GWs.
If you're talking about their actual abilities, like Elemental or whatever, then that's fine. But if you're saying their superhuman characteristics, like super speed, strength, etc, also come from the GWs, then that's even more reason for him not to scale. Being powered by something does not mean your AP is equal to its AP.
I really don't feel comfortable scaling them using these small explosions, and basic sword clashes when the feat in question is creating a literal star.
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Its referring to Elemental Powers
Again, the weapons upscales from a UES, which is why Im arguing that physically clashing with those weapons would scale to them
Honestly, I'll just respond to this with what OrangeFR said
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I'm just not convinced. Maybe some other staff will have other opinions, but right now I'm neutral, leaning towards disagreeing.
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Most of these characters have actual consistent portrayals and a considerable amount of feats above their anti-feats that they would hold more weight than them, they also usually have feats that bridge the gap between their peak feats and their lower ones so there wouldn't be a massive jump in stats (unlike the proposal here where we are relying on 2 feats that are far above anything else that the characters that would scale to them showcased not to mention that the validity of them scaling to the 2 feats is already in question).
Also the examples of Mario and Sonic are just video game mechanics and we don't really use or apply them when scaling.
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The same can be said for Ninjago
The amount of lower feats outweights their best feats, which would also downgrade them to like 9-B following your logic.
I think the blog and previous messages already did a fair job of explaining why the feats are consistant, and bunch of CIS feats are not anti-feats
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So Neutral for GWs and agree with Dimension feat then
I could calc this explosion, claim its 8-B, and use it as an Anti-Feat
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Not really. My problem with the base ninja scaling to 4-C is the massive gap between it and the next highest feat that they would scale to (as i already explained here) and also the low number of feats that scale to 4-C, these feats being questionable and additionally the lack of feats that are even close to it since to use feats that have a massive gap between them and every other feat that certain characters would scale to there needs to be consistency for that scaling (which isn't the case here).
Also you're misinterpreting my argument, my argument was never that having many feats lower than 4-C makes it an outlier but rather that it isn't consistent and is a massive jump in strength which makes it an outlier. I used anti-feats simply as supporting evidence that the Ninja in their bases aren't portrayed to be even close to star level in the series.
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1. I didn't use the feats I linked there as Anti-Feats but as proof that tier 7/tier 8 scaling for the base Ninja is consistent. (Basically to prove that the ninja have feats that scale around tier 7/tier 8 and also to showcase the gap between them and 4-C due to the lack of other feats between them, we literally have many tier 7/tier 8 feats, two 4-C feats that are already in debate and an extremely vague 6-A statement)
Also neither the 3 feats I linked nor the feat you linked would count as Anti-Feats since they don't showcase the limit of a character.
2. This
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Why does it matter?
The amount of feat has little importance if they are made consistant. Heck we even have an enemy of Wu creating a Starry sky dream dimension who was previously defeated by the Sensei. And Wu also remade the Speedway Five Billion's part of Prime Empire, who has its own Day and Night cycle too (Since we don't have proof he remade the entire Realm, its limited to 4-C), Nadakhan making his own version of Ninjago, which was illuminated by a source of light, implying he made the space and a sun too
so we actually have 4-5 Stellar lvl feats done by mid tiers in the verse which makes Star tiering more consistant
The fact the Ninjas are shown on the lvl of the said weapon right before the Star was made and in the early series defeats that point even further
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AP =/= DC. The explosion is as powerful due to UES.
So, do you agree with 4-C for the main cast overall?
But the point is that Garmadon can hold Megaweapon/4 Golden Weapons, which would erase someone from existence. And they did not only clash swords but also fought physically and could harm each other. And again, Cole could hold the Megaweapon as well, so I don't see why they wouldn't be 4-C. AP does not equal DC, we cannot expect them to destroy/create in every occasion.
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This is not anywhere near 8-B, it's way below tbh.
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1. This feat is taken from the Stone Cold comic which has contradictions with the show (Wu's meeting with Kai is different from that in the show) which makes it non-canon
2. The feat took place inside the dreams of Wu which makes it unusable for scaling (proof)
There's no proof that Wu created all of Prime Empire, only Speedway Five Billion is shown and that's the only part of Prime Empire that the Ninja go to in the dimension (there'd be no point for Wu to create all of Prime Empire only for the Ninja not to go to them), also Speedway Five Billion is never shown to run on a Day and Night cycle. Not to mention that a Day and Night cycle is not enough for a pocket dimension to be 4-C since a star needs to be shown which is never the case in prime empire.
This wouldn't scale to physical stats since Nadakhan's wishes are not a UES.
From the Creation Feats page in the wiki
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Also, the thread is getting clogged. We should preferably wait for more staff input.
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The wordings are different, but he says something similar
Prime Empire is a shadow of the Real World, so no
Nadakhan at the time is amped by EPs who have a UES + Pretty sure Djinns magic is shown weaker when physically injured, which would imply UES
Whatever
