Ninjago Star Tiering and Possible New Value

[REX9097]

Agree with everything and Wu should be has Pocket Reality Manipulation

 

[YmTheSuper]

I have a feeling that you never checked my blog mentioned in the OP, since you addressed none of it and pretended as if it does not exist. Your last portion, as well as almost everything else to what I responded, is addressed there.

I need to clarify that the outlier section was about every single character in the verse scaling to the star creation feat not the feat itself. The blog only mentions it being an outlier in relation to the feat itself and the golden weapons not having many feats and doesn't mention it being above every other stat that most characters scale to.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I need to clarify that the outlier section was about every single character in the verse scaling to the star creation feat not the feat itself. The blog only mentions it being an outlier in relation to the feat itself and the golden weapons not having many feats and doesn't mention it being above every other stat that most characters scale to.

How is it above the stats most character scale to if multiple chars scale to Wu who also has a Star feat?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I need to clarify that the outlier section was about every single character in the verse scaling to the star creation feat not the feat itself. The blog only mentions it being an outlier in relation to the feat itself and the golden weapons not having many feats and doesn't mention it being above every other stat that most characters scale to.

Fair enough, but it is consistent with Wu’s feat, and the GWs feat itself is very consistently stated and was shown in the show, so I don’t think we can just, yk, ignore them.

 

[YmTheSuper]

How is it above the stats most character scale to if multiple chars scale to Wu who also has a Star feat?

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

My main problem with using the creation feat is that we have no time-frame to scale the feat to, although I don't know if pocket dimension creation feats are treated differently to other creation feats.

 

[Lort15]

Agree.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

My main problem with using the creation feat is that we have no time-frame to scale the feat to, although I don't know if pocket dimension creation feats are treated differently to other creation feats.

There's a calc of how fast the GWs were to go into the sky and create the Star within a timeframe of 3 seconds

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Should we downgrade every single characters with 4-B feats that don't break a solar system off a regular blast? That's what you are arguing atm, and Im telling you again its just wrong. Goku scale to a UES with a similar case to Elemental Powers (His Ki amplifying his body), should we downgrade him because he isn't shaking the Universe with normal attacks? This is exactly why we have a rule regarding the area of attack


Regarding Wu's feat, his Creation powers can be used offensively, and he can harm the Ninjas with both Creation Blasts and with physical blows in a similar amount of power, so the feat should scale to him. The same logic should apply to the GWs, possessing the power of Creation altogheter and channeling the main Elements individually already, scaling it to their durability and also implying you would indeed need Star lvl of Durability to wisthand such power. To be more precise:
Each Weapon channels a certain quantity of energy --> They altogheter channel a higher lvl of energy (Star lvl amount of it) --> It instantly vaporize whoever is too weak to handle that energy but those are strong enough to wield it don't (This is made clear with Garmadon wisthanding its power, while a human lvl fodder couldn't).

FYI, it is generally a bad idea to overuse whataboutisms as the crux of your arguments. Especially if it involves what is considered the most self explanatory example of a UES, has consistent backup lore, and is basically the epitome of ABC power scaling.

 

[Robo432343]

This is not 4-C
This is Low 4-C

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is not 4-C
This is Low 4-C

Last time I checked, creating a star is equal to 4-C. Unless you use your own tiering system, where Low 4-C is Star level.

 

[Robo432343]

Last time I checked, creating a star is equal to 4-C. Unless you use your own tiering system, where Low 4-C is Star level.

but its a small star
thats why its Low 4-C

 

[Lloydblitzed]

but its a small star
thats why its Low 4-C

Why and where is it said to be a small Star?

 

[Robo432343]

Why and where is it said to be a small Star?

why would we assume its the size of a normal star if its visually shown to be a small star

 

[Lloydblitzed]

why would we assume its the size of a normal star if its visually shown to be a small star

How is it shown to be a small star?? Even WOG and book statements doesn't call it as such

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

why would we assume its the size of a normal star if its visually shown to be a small star

"Visually" it is shown to be even brighter than a regular star lmfao. Also:

The exceptions are that the lower borders of 5-C, Low 5-B, 5-B, 5-A, High 5-A, 4-C, 4-B, 4-A, 3-C, and 3-B can be considered standard calculations for destroying a moon, a small planet, a planet, a large planet, a brown dwarf, a common star, a solar system, two or more solar systems, a galaxy, and two or more galaxies respectively,

Unless you show a concerete proof of it being unusual to call it small star. Also, Wu's feat gets you 4-C, not L4-C.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

"Visually" it is shown to be even brighter than a regular star lmfao. Also:


Unless you show a concerete proof of it being unusual to call it small star. Also, Wu's feat gets you 4-C, not L4-C.

And to add to this, Yellow colored stars would be as big as the Sun (which is our case here), while the smallest ones are Red colored.

 

[Robo432343]

How is it shown to be a small star?? Even WOG and book statements doesn't call it as such

because if you calc the feat you'd get a Low 4-C value

 

[Lloydblitzed]

because if you calc the feat you'd get a Low 4-C value

??????

 

[AigerTheKing]

because if you calc the feat you'd get a Low 4-C value

Nowhere in Reference for Common Feats is this stated

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Nowhere in Reference for Common Feats is this stated

The Robot is right.

Lloyd says it took 3 seconds, this would cause the feat to be downgraded to 1.897e+41 (Low 4-C), unless the Wiki ignores the time limit when it is too short.

 

[Robo432343]

see i was right

 

[Lloydblitzed]

The Robot is right.

Lloyd says it took 3 seconds, this would cause the feat to be downgraded to 1.897e+41 (Low 4-C), unless the Wiki ignores the time limit when it is too short.

It took 3 seconds for the GW to go to space, it took a second or less for the Star itself to be made. And creating a Pocket Dimension with an Astronomical Unit isn't Low 4-C at all

 

[Demon_Lord18]

And creating a Pocket Dimension with an Astronomical Unit isn't Low 4-C at all

It will depend on how long it took to create it.

 

[AigerTheKing]

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...

vsbattles.fandom.com

My main problem with using the creation feat is that we have no time-frame to scale the feat to, although I don't know if pocket dimension creation feats are treated differently to other creation feats.

Pocket Dimension feats doesn't really use timeframes

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Pocket Dimension feats doesn't really use timeframes

In this calculation it is not being used because it assumes that the dimension is created in an instant, rather than having taken some time.

Edit: I thought you had sent a calculation of common talents

 

[AigerTheKing]

In this calculation it is not being used because it assumes that the dimension is created in an instant, rather than having taken some time.

He pretty much called the dimension off instantly

 

[AigerTheKing]

Edit: I thought you had sent a calculation of common talents

The OP did, yeah

 

[Demon_Lord18]

He pretty much called the dimension off instantly

Spoiler: Creation feats

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

If it had actually happened in 3 seconds, apparently the feat would still be 4-C

Since it would be a short timeframe

Edit: This is how I'm interpreting this part

 

[AigerTheKing]

Spoiler: Creation feats

Lastly, the creation of the object(s) in question needs to happen within a reasonably short timeframe for the whole result to apply to the Attack Potency.

If it had actually happened in 3 seconds, apparently the feat would still be 4-C

The calling off thing takes 1 second. The GW take around 0.56 seconds to form the Star

Since it would be a short timeframe

Where do you get these timeframe values?

 

[Demon_Lord18]

For now I'm neutral

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Where do you get these timeframe values?

The 3 seconds? Lloyd's, but he was talking about something else, so it's just a hypothetical scenario.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

For now I'm neutral

counted

 

[Spectral69420]

Agree with op

 

[YmTheSuper]

While I'm not against the star level scaling as much as I used to there are some things that need clarification mainly surrounding the blog:

Besides, why would he say "No-one can wield its power besides me, Ninjas, and Wu"? Especially among the army he needed to control and have respect from?

Can you provide a scan for this statement? I searched and checked through the series and i didn't find it

Meanwhile it might seem too short in order to deduce via that Cole scaling to Megaweapon, Megaweapon does not start to "shine" when Cole touches it, and Cole doesn't begin to be erased from existence, unlike the pirate who tried to do the same and started to "disappear" almost instantly. Also, logically, Cole would not do that if it was fatal to his life.

This is contradicted with the fact that touching The Golden Armor (Which is made from The Golden Weapons and was later reforged into them) killed zane and Kai Stating that touching the armor would turn the ninja to toast. Not to mention that Tommy Andreasen, one of the writers, Stating that the only reason Kai was able to touch the armor in Season 10 is because Zane absorbed its power when it killed him in Season 3 which is good supporting evidence, this makes it more consistent that the ninja can't wield all golden weapons together.

Also I don't get the notion that someone being stronger than someone that can wield the golden weapons makes him able to wield the weapons. Garmadon clearly states that he used dark magic to be able to wield the weapons (which is very clearly hax as it gave him four arms and dark magic itself has many hax applications like how clouse uses it so it has nothing to do with ap).

If we were to use the logic that ap allows people to wield the weapons then everyone that scales to Garmadon or above baseline Star Level would be immune to the Golden Weapon and Megaweapons' Existence Erasure and Garmadon himself would lose his resistance to EE since it implies that AP is the main reason for him being able to wield them (also according to the blog having four arms is sometimes a requirement to hold the weapons and sometimes not which is only justified with the cole feat that i talked about earlier)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

his is contradicted with the fact that touching The Golden Armor (Which is made from The Golden Weapons and was later reforged into them) killed zane and Kai Stating that touching the armor would turn the ninja to toast. Not to mention that Tommy Andreasen, one of the writers, Stating that the only reason Kai was able to touch the armor in Season 10 is because Zane absorbed its power when it killed him in Season 3 which is good supporting evidence, this makes it more consistent that the ninja can't wield all golden weapons together.

Zane absorbed not only the GWs, but the FSM power that was powering GM since he absorbed 90% of it from Lloyd in S3 as well

Also I don't get the notion that someone being stronger than someone that can wield the golden weapons makes him able to wield the weapons. Garmadon clearly states that he used dark magic to be able to wield the weapons (which is very clearly hax as it gave him four arms and dark magic itself has many hax applications like how clouse uses it so it has nothing to do with ap).

Wielding the GWs alltogheter requires 4 arms and enough strength. Garmadon lacked the 4 arms part by the time of Pilots, which is why he went in the Realm of Madness to begin with

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Can you provide a scan for this statement? I searched and checked through the series and i didn't find it

The blog meant that Garmadon would never say to his army that other people such as Wu and the Ninjas would be capable of wisthanding the MW's or the GWs power (which he saw first hand while fighting Wu)

 

[YmTheSuper]

Zane absorbed not only the GWs, but the FSM power that was powering GM since he absorbed 90% of it from Lloyd in S3 as well

It is implied that the touching the armor alone would be able to EE the ninja since as i linked earlier the only reason Kai was able to touching the armor was due to it losing its powers (the armor IS made out of the golden weapons and was used later to reforge them) and the writer was responding to a question related to the being made out of the golden weapons. Also, Kai still sayed that merely touching The Armor would lead to the ninja turning into toast (The armor is made out of the golden weapons and the rest of the golden power was used to power The Golden Master and give The Overlord a physical body)

Wielding the GWs alltogheter requires 4 arms and enough strength. Garmadon lacked the 4 arms part by the time of Pilots, which is why he went in the Realm of Madness to begin with

Yes, he went to the realm of madness to use the dark magic to get four arms to be able to use all Golden Weapons at once but being able to use them without getting EEd is simply resistance to Existence Erasure and has nothing to do with AP otherwise Garmadon would lose his resistance to EE and everyone that scales above the weapons would be able to wield them all at once

 

[YmTheSuper]

The blog meant that Garmadon would never say to his army that other people such as Wu and the Ninjas would be capable of wisthanding the MW's or the GWs power

Oh alright, sorry for the misunderstanding.

which he saw first hand while fighting Wu

Wouldn't this just prove that the golden weapons making contact together has a different effect from attempting to use the weapons together or touching them combined (in the state of the Megaweapon, Golden Armor or the comet found in space), since most of the feats used to scale the ninja show the weapons coming into contact into each other and not them attempting to hold them at once (also this would be more consistent with the proof shown earlier)

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It is implied that the touching the armor alone would be able to EE the ninja since as i linked earlier the only reason Kai was able to touching the armor was due to it losing its powers (the armor IS made out of the golden weapons and was used later to reforge them) and the writer was responding to a question related to the being made out of the golden weapons. Also, Kai still sayed that merely touching The Armor would lead to the ninja turning into toast (The armor is made out of the golden weapons and the rest of the golden power was used to power The Golden Master and give The Overlord a physical body)

The same Ninjas knew that the Golden Armor was powered by USM's power as well so yes they have reason to believe they would die from it. GM is also considered the most powerful entity in history, having no equal adversaries as well as possessing the powers of FSM, which is implied to come from USM himself, all that knowing EMs channels their power physically so the armor would've been affected as well

Wouldn't this just prove that the golden weapons making contact together has a different effect from attempting to use the weapons together or touching them combined (in the state of the Megaweapon, Golden Armor or the comet found in space), since most of the feats used to scale the ninja show the weapons coming into contact into each other and not them attempting to hold them at once (also this would be more consistent with the proof shown earlier)

Not really, bc their AP = Their Dura

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

since most of the feats used to scale the ninja show the weapons coming into contact into each other and not them attempting to hold them at once (also this would be more consistent with the proof shown earlier)

Check the blog again:

Cole briefly touches the Megaweapon and not starting to be erased from existence. Meanwhile it might seem too short in order to deduce via that Cole scaling to Megaweapon, Megaweapon does not start to "shine" when Cole touches it, and Cole doesn't begin to be erased from existence, unlike the pirate who tried to do the same and started to "disappear" almost instantly. Also, logically, Cole would not do that if it was fatal to his life.