- 12,828
- 3,995
So this will probably be the biggest thread out of all the ones planned, and I don't imagine it will pass without at least a little bit of fuss. But hey, nobody ever made progress being conservative, so let's just try going all the way.
Now, just where is Avalon, again? In the Reverse Side of the World, more specifically, the "inner sea" of the planet where the Earth's soul is kept. The relevant part of this is that Avalon is still part of the World, it's not an independent realm, but rather just the deepest part of the Earth.
More evidence of Low 1-C includes: Demons, and thus the true forms of the Demon God Pillars (which scales to Goetia), being higher dimensional beings who transcend the universe.
Now, there's also the subject of the MoonCell's 8-D barrier, which we all know about. That matter is a little more uncertain.
While we could treat it as a 1-C feat, the scale is higher than any other tier 1 feat in this thread, which cap at Low 1-C. However, it still definitely happened so it can't just be ignored I feel. It's why I suggest Low 1-C (based on the reasons given), possibly 1-C (based on 8-D structures).
On a minor note as an extension of this, Ivan, Adam and Artemis should just have their 4-B tiers removed (And by extension, Super Orion's "likely" for his rating). It's an unnecessary low-end that only seems to exist for the purposes of creating more vs. matches. As a Grand, Orion is specifically intended to fight against the Beasts, if he were any other tier than them then he'd be one-shot with no effort, which doesn't make any amount of sense, and with Artemis' feats in Atlantis, she absolutely scales, as do Zeus and Ivan. Hell, Zeus has better feats anyway, since it's stated in Olympus that his lightning can incinerate the universe, and Wodime while dying deflected an attack that could vaporize a Fantasy Tree. Same applies to the Types, the 5-A low-end is extremely unnecessary and nothing points against them scaling to 2-A/Low 1-C/1-C when considering Arc being able to defeat Amaterasu.
Speed
As can be seen in BB's profile, everyone who scales to Low 1-C should also have Immeasurable reactions, thanks to Hakuno's Servants being able to battle her even with her 4 dimensional conscience.
Other examples from above also give other characters straight up Immeasurable, such as Goetia, Kiara and Buddha being higher dimensional beings.
Lifting Strength
Similar to Speed, the existence of higher dimensional characters at Low 1-C indicates Immeasurable lifting strength.
Another example of note is Tiamat:
Who is essentially a 4-D pocket space with infinite internal capacity.
Summary
AP: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Affects all current 2-As, although all current 5-Bs should be upgraded to Low 1-C for overpowering the planet with the exception of Moriarty because the Earth he was gonna destroy didn't have any of the protections of the planet)
Speed: Immeasurable reactions (and flat for higher dimensional characters)
Lifting Strength: Immeasurable
Tier
So let's look at the ever infamous Avalon, constantly disregarded because "there's no proof of how dimensions work in the Nasuverse".Now, as covered in the prior thread discussing the Root, we do know how dimensions work in Nasu. All the scans are available there, but basically, BB becoming 4th dimensional using Imaginary Number Space allows her to see the past, present and future as one thing, effectively a book she can read. This explanation is corroborated in Fate/strange fake, where Zelretch sees timelines as pages in a book.The Everdistant Utopia [Noble Phantasm]
Avalon.
The paradise in the Arthurian legends; a scabbard bearing the name of the Faerie Land.
The utopia Avalon was thought to be derived from the island that produced the "Apple of Immortality" in Greek mythology.
Avalon mended all wounds and halted the wielder's aging process. After unleashing its true name, Avalon would break into hundreds of shards and shield the wielder from all interference.
The sheath of the holy sword was excavated by the Einzberns from Cornwall. It was given to Kiritsugu as a catalyst to summon King Arthur.
It was a Noble Phantasm reaching the realm of True Magic. Avalon shut out all physical interference, operation of parallel worlds, and multi-dimensional communication (up to the sixth dimension).
If Saber went hikikomori, no one would reach her.
-Fate/side material
Now, just where is Avalon, again? In the Reverse Side of the World, more specifically, the "inner sea" of the planet where the Earth's soul is kept. The relevant part of this is that Avalon is still part of the World, it's not an independent realm, but rather just the deepest part of the Earth.
This means that completely destroying the World, in the context of Nasu, would mean destroying the Reverse Side and Avalon, and thus it would be a Low 1-C feat (Since Avalon is 6-D). Several NPs have been capable of this, such as Enuma Elish (Capable of destroying the world), a fully charged Ars Almadel Salomonis (Able to pierce through the planet), Mahapralaya (Completely destroys the world and remakes it), and Shooting Star Ortygia (Same as AAS).It is the final paradise, filled with flowers of every imaginable color.
In the day, it's filled with the spring sunlight and the scent of summer, and at night, you feel the fall air and look up at the winter stars.
The earth is filled with flowers and insects. The forests with water and green and beasts.
Beautiful fairies dance near the waterside.
In the myths, this tiny little world is called the Land of Eternal Spring, or the Island of the Apple.
It is a utopia, far beyond the reach of animals who possess wisdom.
Its name is Avalon. The inner sea of the planet.
It is another name for the place where the Earth's soul is kept.
-Fate/Grand Order, "The Tower of Avalon" (Merlin's Bond CE)
More evidence of Low 1-C includes: Demons, and thus the true forms of the Demon God Pillars (which scales to Goetia), being higher dimensional beings who transcend the universe.
True Demon [Circumstances]
Even in the world of Extra, the concept of Demons (悪魔の概念, akuma no gainen?) is by humanity treated as the greatest of obstacles; so as God is to omniscience and omnipotence (全知全能, zenchi zenou?), so as demons as an existence are to mortal levels of awareness and impotence (人知無能, Jinchi Munou?, lit. "human intellect and impotence").
They are as an abyss (淵, fuchi?) that lies within arm's reach, yet decisively beyond comprehension.
Distinct from those demons from Stay Night, which exist only as imitations, the real thing -- Enfleshed Demons (受肉した悪魔, juniku-shita akuma?, lit. "Incarnated Demon") are that with which humans are incapable of competing 太刀打ちできない (tachi-uchi-dekinai, lit. "incapable of crossing swords"?).
(※ There is in record only a single instance in which an Enfleshed Demon was forced to disperse (退散, taisan?, lit. "disperse / retreat"), but that's a different story.)
In general, demons are existences that take possession, utilizing the corpus of a human to incarnate (受肉, juniku) and take action, but in the event that the psyche (精神, seishin?) of the human host (苗床になる人間, naedoko ni naru ningen?, lit. "the human that becomes a seed-bed") cannot withstand the strain, it is commonplace for self-annihilation (自壊, jikai?) of the host to occur, dispersing the essence of the demon into the vicinity.
There exist also humans who by way of their own acts (業, gō?, lit. "sins; worldly preoccupations / fixations / absorptions; karma") are subsumed unto the category of Demons as a result of losing their humanity; but these creatures that are said to have become Fiends (魔人, Majin?) cannot be considered True Demons.
In the world of Extra -- whether by way of Demonic possession, or in the circumstance that one's own actions bring about a transformation -- the phenomenon whereby a True Demon is birthed unto the world has, as of present day in 2030, not been brought successful fruition even once.
Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).
In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."
Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.
In the True Route of CCC, a certain individual that has undergone transmigration did indeed manage to reach this realm, but owing to a slight mistake, they were capsized from the Seat of Divinity (神の座, kami no za?-Fate/Extra Mats
Unlock: Return
Goetia’s objective is to reach the apex---
To become the sole existence in this planet.
Despite knowing of their helplessness, their ugliness, Solomon accepted humans without correcting them.
But the demons could not accept this, and eventually concluded that there is no value to humans and the future, and feared the result called extinction.
Their own extinction was a matter of course, but they felt repugnance over the conclusion of “everything disappearing”.
Unlock: Return
And thus, Goetia resumed activity by making king Solomon’s corpse into his nest, but there was a great dilemma in his way of being.
In spite of asserting that humans had no value, the demons could not exist without being employed by humans.
The disgrace of having to remain under humans - the sole and greatest “waste of resources” in this universe - despite being life forms of a higher dimension.
Goetia could not accept such contradictions and unfaithfulness, and set out on a quest of self-reform.
Reset the objective of serving humans.
Absolute proof that he is the highest existence in this planet.
Reaching the apex that not even Solomon could attain.
In other words, the beginning of the great venture of becoming God.-Goetia's My Room Profile
The Buddha exists beyond space and time.
Which is consistent with Kiara, a Buddha, reaching the same level as a True Demon, who, as said previously, are also higher dimensional. Kiara also created the Cage of the Fallen, a place with more spatio-temporal dimensions that exists beyond everything.
Amaterasu has so much Divinity that she isn't limited by the time axis.
Golden White Face [Circumstances]
Konjiki Hakumen.
This is the nine-tailed divine spirit form of Cas-ko. In this form she is a pseudo-god that is a deification of the sun. You get a peek of her like this in her 3rd Secret Garden. The apathetic Sun Goddess [Amaterasu Oomikami].
When Cas-ko goes into nine-tails mode this is what she will……not be. This form is Cas-ko’s origin, and is now just something that’s been part of her since long ago and continues to be a part of her. When she becomes this high level of a divine spirit, the time axis is no longer a limiting factor to her.
Normally someone entering the mausoleum would be burnt to a crisp, but as expected of our Zabio/Zabiko [nicknames for the male/female protagonist] he or she flaunts their recklessness in the face of danger (stupid menu choices), and somehow pull through.
Originally we wanted to feature her without clothing (in her lovely nine-tailed divine spirit form wearing only an apron [naked-apron]), however, unable to break through the ethical wall that is our consciences, she appears properly clad in her ceremonial attire.
By the way, when someone who has no dream enters the mausoleum, the only thing that can be seen is a giant sun.-Fate/Extra Mats
Now, there's also the subject of the MoonCell's 8-D barrier, which we all know about. That matter is a little more uncertain.
BB :: However…The Moon Cell is, you might say impudent, or that its defenses are flawless. Even though I managed to pass through the imaginary number space at the speed of light, a huge wall now stands before our devilish heroine BB-chan! It’s a perfectly spherical spirit particle defense wall that cuts through eight dimensions. It looks like it’ll be very hard to break down this wall. But this is the last move. After I break this wall into little pieces I’ll have reached my goal. So I’ve left all of you in Meltlilith’s care. The girl can’t really take a joke, but her work is perfect. So take care, senpai. Please entertain me with your useless flailing on this layer too ♥ -https://tsukinoura.wordpress.com/2014/06/10/entry-129-we-need-to-focus-guys-no-really/
While we could treat it as a 1-C feat, the scale is higher than any other tier 1 feat in this thread, which cap at Low 1-C. However, it still definitely happened so it can't just be ignored I feel. It's why I suggest Low 1-C (based on the reasons given), possibly 1-C (based on 8-D structures).
On a minor note as an extension of this, Ivan, Adam and Artemis should just have their 4-B tiers removed (And by extension, Super Orion's "likely" for his rating). It's an unnecessary low-end that only seems to exist for the purposes of creating more vs. matches. As a Grand, Orion is specifically intended to fight against the Beasts, if he were any other tier than them then he'd be one-shot with no effort, which doesn't make any amount of sense, and with Artemis' feats in Atlantis, she absolutely scales, as do Zeus and Ivan. Hell, Zeus has better feats anyway, since it's stated in Olympus that his lightning can incinerate the universe, and Wodime while dying deflected an attack that could vaporize a Fantasy Tree. Same applies to the Types, the 5-A low-end is extremely unnecessary and nothing points against them scaling to 2-A/Low 1-C/1-C when considering Arc being able to defeat Amaterasu.
Speed
As can be seen in BB's profile, everyone who scales to Low 1-C should also have Immeasurable reactions, thanks to Hakuno's Servants being able to battle her even with her 4 dimensional conscience.
Other examples from above also give other characters straight up Immeasurable, such as Goetia, Kiara and Buddha being higher dimensional beings.
Lifting Strength
Similar to Speed, the existence of higher dimensional characters at Low 1-C indicates Immeasurable lifting strength.
Another example of note is Tiamat:
Who is essentially a 4-D pocket space with infinite internal capacity.
Summary
AP: Low 1-C, possibly 1-C (Affects all current 2-As, although all current 5-Bs should be upgraded to Low 1-C for overpowering the planet with the exception of Moriarty because the Earth he was gonna destroy didn't have any of the protections of the planet)
Speed: Immeasurable reactions (and flat for higher dimensional characters)
Lifting Strength: Immeasurable