KingNanaya
He/Him- 3,134
- 4,316
I'll be sure to go through those when I have time today
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)
- Thread starter DemonGodMitchAubin
- Start date
- 967
- 372
Has anyone ever looked around the various books/etc of Nasuverse to find smoething about the names/surname/families thing that happens in the Clock Tower (and somewhat in Magi society as a whole)?
There are various tidbits that seem so random, like Spiritual Evocation Dept. III being selected from Sophia-Ri, but adopted by Eulyphis, the Meluastea/Astea & Dpt. XI Archaelogy, which relates somehow to ORT, etc etc
It's one of the things that, at least to me, have always looked awkward, but I could never found anything more than the awkwardness, given most of the information about things like this are from the Dictionaries/Materials.
Call me crazy for thinking there's something there, but again, we have just recently finally understood what the **** is "Fem's Casa (Boat Party)", which was mentioned in fucknig Hollow Ataraxia, among other things, and Takeuchi has at least once said Nasu has like a **** ton of background informartion he has never released.
Also, we have, in Samurai Remnant, an official name for the actual "focal points" of energy in Leylines, Spirit Fonts, apparently.
There are various tidbits that seem so random, like Spiritual Evocation Dept. III being selected from Sophia-Ri, but adopted by Eulyphis, the Meluastea/Astea & Dpt. XI Archaelogy, which relates somehow to ORT, etc etc
It's one of the things that, at least to me, have always looked awkward, but I could never found anything more than the awkwardness, given most of the information about things like this are from the Dictionaries/Materials.
Call me crazy for thinking there's something there, but again, we have just recently finally understood what the **** is "Fem's Casa (Boat Party)", which was mentioned in fucknig Hollow Ataraxia, among other things, and Takeuchi has at least once said Nasu has like a **** ton of background informartion he has never released.
Also, we have, in Samurai Remnant, an official name for the actual "focal points" of energy in Leylines, Spirit Fonts, apparently.
Last edited:
- 9,243
- 13,798
Big surprise lol
Considering the TON of background lore that remains a mystery, I'm pretty sure Nasu could write several books about what he's hidding from us
- 967
- 372
Yeah, the amount of randomly thrown around crumbs of information in Nasuverse, specially in the materials, is kinda absurd.
At the same time that it's really cool that we can see awesome works written by talented authors such as Geb, Narita, etc, it's so ******* infuriating (for me at least, as a fan of worldbuilding) to always feel like something is missing, even if there's hints/even if it's there, but not shown enough to become visible.
- 9,243
- 13,798
I guess this is part of what makes a story intriguing. You do not have all the answers. Still, would be great to have at least more details.
- 9,243
- 13,798
Oh the irony...
Fezzih_007
He/Him- 7,783
- 2,896
https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-no-body-vs-the-nobody-roxas-vs-nameless.156593/
I need some votes, please.
I need some votes, please.
- 967
- 372
Another "connecting the dots" exercise I have done recently:
This particular scene in TsukiRE made me think of two (main) things - Anima Animusphere's incantation and AoM texture. (Though it also reminded me of Gilgamesh's Ea description of "Heaven and Underworld spinning in one/same direction" and Heaven, Earth and the Underworld spinning all in the same direction is Kosmos, which is different from the "World's way of being", in which Heaven and UW spin together one way and Earth goes in the other direction)
So, to begin with:
"The HEAVENS are ablaze. The LIGHT given off is blinding." ... "impossible to see by GAZING SKYWARD from our planet."
Grand Order - Anima Animusphere (Kirschtaria NP in FGO)
Atlantis version:「星の形(スターズ)。宙の形(コスモス)。神の形(ゴッズ)。我の形(アニムス)。天体は空洞なり(アントルム)。空洞は虚空なり(アンバース)───虚空には神ありき(アニマ、アニムスフィア)」
Olympus version:「星の形。宙(ソラ)の形。神の形。我の形。天体は空洞なり。空洞は虚空なり。───虚空には、神ありき」
Translation - Stars. Cosmos. Gods. Animus. Antrum. Unbirth. Anima, Animusphere. // "The shape of stars. The shape of space. The shape of God. The shape of self. Celestial bodies are hollow. Hollowness is empty space. Within empty space, was/resided God." (Changed the last part so that the "," aligns in the japanese and english.)
Some oddities here - Kosmos / shape of "space" (this by itself is an interesting thing, because the character 宙 is involved in a lot of metaphors and is the second half of the kanji for Universe - derived from a space & time analogy - which uses the a house as a metaphor, "chu" meaning the time, representing the roof beams) / sora (in KATAkana, aka, the kana system for foreign words, but "sora" is obviously a japanese, native pronunciation)
So, we see here a strange hierarchy, that basically doesn't know what it is in a way. Cosmos, as by Gilgamesh's account, is "the three parts, underworld, earth and heavens, spinning in the same direction", while the way of being of the World is "UW and Heavens" one way, "Earth" the other way. This is somehow also referenced in Kirsch's skills, the Heavens ("ten/天") shall not revolve, the Earth (地) shall not move - and how the LBs (and the Crypters' worldview/way of being) are basically a stagnated version of History, in a way.
Don't know exactly what Nasu means by all this, but it seems clear there's a "battle" between a dualistic and tripartite worldview, in a way. The very heavens that were ablaze in the first image were derived from the manifestation of Arcueid's Soul, the "World Egg", which resides in Avalon/Inner Sea. This is actually recognized even by Kirschtaria, in a way? His chant is changed to "Within empty space, was/resided the star(s)" when he used the spell against Beast VII - and this "empty space" is the interior of "Celestial Body". But the LB view is that "Earth", "Sky" and "Heaven" are the three parts with different "qualities" as far as ME goes... So, overall, a huge confusion, while at the same time, this "confussion" is somehow included in the very understanding of the people in the story? IDK
This particular scene in TsukiRE made me think of two (main) things - Anima Animusphere's incantation and AoM texture. (Though it also reminded me of Gilgamesh's Ea description of "Heaven and Underworld spinning in one/same direction" and Heaven, Earth and the Underworld spinning all in the same direction is Kosmos, which is different from the "World's way of being", in which Heaven and UW spin together one way and Earth goes in the other direction)
So, to begin with:
"The HEAVENS are ablaze. The LIGHT given off is blinding." ... "impossible to see by GAZING SKYWARD from our planet."
Grand Order - Anima Animusphere (Kirschtaria NP in FGO)
Atlantis version:「星の形(スターズ)。宙の形(コスモス)。神の形(ゴッズ)。我の形(アニムス)。天体は空洞なり(アントルム)。空洞は虚空なり(アンバース)───虚空には神ありき(アニマ、アニムスフィア)」
Olympus version:「星の形。宙(ソラ)の形。神の形。我の形。天体は空洞なり。空洞は虚空なり。───虚空には、神ありき」
Translation - Stars. Cosmos. Gods. Animus. Antrum. Unbirth. Anima, Animusphere. // "The shape of stars. The shape of space. The shape of God. The shape of self. Celestial bodies are hollow. Hollowness is empty space. Within empty space, was/resided God." (Changed the last part so that the "," aligns in the japanese and english.)
Some oddities here - Kosmos / shape of "space" (this by itself is an interesting thing, because the character 宙 is involved in a lot of metaphors and is the second half of the kanji for Universe - derived from a space & time analogy - which uses the a house as a metaphor, "chu" meaning the time, representing the roof beams) / sora (in KATAkana, aka, the kana system for foreign words, but "sora" is obviously a japanese, native pronunciation)
So, we see here a strange hierarchy, that basically doesn't know what it is in a way. Cosmos, as by Gilgamesh's account, is "the three parts, underworld, earth and heavens, spinning in the same direction", while the way of being of the World is "UW and Heavens" one way, "Earth" the other way. This is somehow also referenced in Kirsch's skills, the Heavens ("ten/天") shall not revolve, the Earth (地) shall not move - and how the LBs (and the Crypters' worldview/way of being) are basically a stagnated version of History, in a way.
Don't know exactly what Nasu means by all this, but it seems clear there's a "battle" between a dualistic and tripartite worldview, in a way. The very heavens that were ablaze in the first image were derived from the manifestation of Arcueid's Soul, the "World Egg", which resides in Avalon/Inner Sea. This is actually recognized even by Kirschtaria, in a way? His chant is changed to "Within empty space, was/resided the star(s)" when he used the spell against Beast VII - and this "empty space" is the interior of "Celestial Body". But the LB view is that "Earth", "Sky" and "Heaven" are the three parts with different "qualities" as far as ME goes... So, overall, a huge confusion, while at the same time, this "confussion" is somehow included in the very understanding of the people in the story? IDK
Last edited:
- 3,346
- 1,912
arcueid mentions in melty blood that the earth is trying to separate from the universe, and create its own "laws"
- 967
- 372
Yes, I think this is somehow related to whatver the "grand narrative" of Fate, maybe of Type-moon itself, is about.
There's actually, in Traum, a dialogue in which the similarity to Anima Animusphere's incantation cannot be overlooked as it's so blatant, even though it's not an incantation of any sort
I mean, it's a derivation of the chant, that much is obvious, but what exactly does the chant means to begin with, and what the changes do to this meaning is the problem.
The whole Olga becoming the "president of the World" and the Alien World being the world of CHALDEAS, in a way, makes me think this is a "humans becoming separated from Earth/reching the stars", but gone wrong? But hell if I know. The language barrier probably means I've lost a lot of the references, and Nasu himself has always been somewhat vague in his lore...
- 9,243
- 13,798
We'll have to wait for the rest of Grand Order to know I think. Especially since apparently, whatever Marisbury had in mind would be so bad humanity would be the single most hated species in the universe
- 4,061
- 1,714
BTW have you read the grand unified theory in Beast's lair? That tries to shed some light on this
- 967
- 372
Yes, I have
I have to admit that I'd done some very similar comparisons, and arrived at similar conclusions than him, before reading his text. He published that like one year ago, IIRC, and before reading it, I could swear I was just going crazy and going pareidolia on the verse, because some of the things seem just too convoluted and, overall, there's very little actual answers. (At the time, my idea was that it made absolutely no sense to have so much interconnectedness that wasn't explictly used.)
After seeing someone reaching very similar conclusions for very similar reasons, I began doing what I've called dot connecting. It is still somewhat very convoluted, and ends in very little answers, but is at least a nice way to spend time and it generally ends in very awkward, but interesting, readings. Eventually, you see the same "theme" being repeated SO many times that you just can't ignore, even if the way it's portraited, and sometimes even the wordings or interpretations, are different. I think the above comparison between the World Egg manifestation and Kirsch's Anima Animusphere is one of those - you can definitely read them, and never associated them if you don't pay attention, but when there's the Rani and Neko-Arc discussion of saying how to shoot for the Moon is useless, because the bullet will just return and hit you, when there's the Inversed Moon of Heavens the two mirrors metaphors, etc etc etc, you just have to admit there's at least something being intended there. (Even though it's questionable if it's something well done, or just weaved into the story somewhat randomly because Bad Civiliza... writting)
It's very mind engaging to me, because not only you have to deal with the original text and with how to translate it (as I don't speak japanese with any fluency, even though I've ended up learning one or other rules of its grammar because of this process), but in the very verse there's this worldview incompatibility of East and West, China/"Japan" and London, that is also replicated by the underlying Buddhist tone the work has, even though it very rarely uses actual "buddhist settings" and images vs my western worldview.
Last edited:
- 5,417
- 6,222
a
- 4,524
- 2,242
Not really related to Nasuverse's powerscaling, but I've been re-reading Kara no Kyoukai and I think my thoughts on it are significantly more positive. Shiki has unsurprisingly become a far better character for me for reasons that just about any avid follower of Nasu's work would be aware of, but I think a lot of my gripes with KnK originally have significantly decreased in severity (albeit, they're definitely still there) and I got a lot more out of it on an intellectual and emotional level. All in all, it's pretty good. Wouldn't put it in my top 3 Nasu works, but probably top 5 yeah. It's really good and Shiki's one of the best female characters I've ever seen, probably only surpassed by a very small number of other characters like Arya Stark or people like that.
- 9,243
- 13,798
I've a lot of characters I see as far superior like Senua from Hellblade, Maleficent (the original, not the shitty remake version), Alice from American McGee's Alice, Aqua from Kingdom Hearts, Sypha from Castlevania Netflix or even in the Nasuverse Morgan, Medea, Rin but Shiki is a really good character even then
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
I don't see how in the world Senua, Maleficient, Aqua, Sypha, Morgan, Medea, and Rin even come close to Shiki in writing. Are you basing this off you liking them more? Because if that's the case, then that doesn't make them better written than fricking Ryougi Shiki.
- 1,551
- 1,967
Banger chara design
- 9,243
- 13,798
It's a matter of opinions but I think they're better as characters than Shiki in various ways. Shiki is actually very similar to a lot of them, notably Alice, Morgan and Senua due to their complexity, mental state and morality. Senua and Alice are a textbook example of a character with mental illness that are just perfectly represented an done for me. Their stories are some of the most beautiful, haunting and fascinating thematically with extremely strong themses everyone should embrace. Morgan is an incredibly well-done deconstruction of a villain, one buildt on horrifying tragedy, constant mistake at recognizing a harsh truth rarely seen in fiction (some people are just rotten beyond redemption and will outright shit on you for trying to help them) which instantly makes her beyond refreshing for me. Her design is excellent, her powerset is fantastic, so is the fact that you don't get to defeat her, she dies a humiliating death that ciments her tragic status even more, she's a superb counterpart to the classic idea of Morgana Le Fay. She's a textbook example of what a tragic villain should be, right up there with the likes of Magneto or Two-Face.
Maleficent is just perfect as an antagonist, one of the best villains in cinema, both animated and live-action, yes she's much less complex than Shiki since she's a card-carrying villain but she's perfect for her role. Her design is sinister and screams evil but also beautiful and elegant, she's vicious, sadistic and cruel while talking and behaving in manners that are both dignified and condescending at the same time without feeling forced, she's a beast of pure raw power but is immensly cunning and careful in her plans, she devours the scene everytime she's on screen, she's collected but her outbursts are memorably horrifying and destructive, her dialogue drips with delicious evilness that makes what should have been cheezy delightful to hear because it's precisely her saying those lines and the final battle against her is a testament of what a good, blood-chilling and exciting climax should be. She's much more than a good villain, she's an absolute standard of what a badass, proudly evil and sadistic villain should be in terms of power, presence in the story and on-screen, aura, elegance, cunning, strength and cruelty.
Aqua and Sypha are superbly-made good characters who do everything they can to bring hope and safety to others yet have flaws that makes them reliable for everyone, more than Shiki (mainly because Shiki is a very particular character). They face horrific situations, enemies and fates that shake them but never give up, they're utterly badass and prove it more and more yet they can also be put in difficulties not simply by utterly powerful foes but by the right amount of mid-level enemies who can put them on the ropes, showing they're not invincible and need help to go further, which again makes them particulary reliable in ways even totally mundane people can relate to (which is weird cause I'm a very cynical person so I tend to get annoyed by simple lessons like "be good" but both of them manage to be engaging thanks to how they're written both as characters and in their story and it makes them considerably good for me).
Maybe that's because I knew the above before her so I already had examples of broken, insane, ruthless and complex female characters but even after seeing how complex and well-written Shiki is (and she is FAR ABOVE so-called great characters like Ellie from The Last of Us, Aloy from Horizon or Wanda from the MCU) and she definitely should get more recognition (and not simply in the Nasuverse but as a character as a whole), she doesn't reach the same level for me, she's excellent but not mind-blowing. ALL the others above have left something much stronger on me. I honestly can say they basically created a standard for me for what strong female characters should be, because they were just that good, well-made and memorable.
As for Medea, I admit, it's just me. On an "objective" degree, Shiki is better but I can't not love her more, I love her design, her voice, her powers and I'm a sucker for Greek Mythology. Same for Rin, I just think the character is an excellent, complex and more subtle tsundere. There are other characters like those two I prefer compared to Shiki (like Aoko, Princess Leia, Artoria or Ellen Ripley) but Shiki is superior to them.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
I guess it's just your personal opinion then. I just don't see how all these characters, especially Sypha and Maleficient come even close to being as well written as Shiki. Whatever Shiki does, there's always a very deep meaning behind it. Her very existence itself has deep meanings.
- 9,243
- 13,798
And just like you don't see how they come even close to Shiki, I don't see how Shiki is so beyond everyone else and what she has that is particulary exceptional compared to them. So in the end, it's just your opinion just like it's mine.
- 5,417
- 6,222
So with Ultima's thread the root seems like it will 100% keep 1-A.
KingNanaya
He/Him- 3,134
- 4,316
Root most likely will get a bit higher than 1-A depending on how stuff goes
- 4,524
- 2,242
All great characters, but I find Shiki to be far more interesting than any of them
- 4,524
- 2,242
Haven’t been active in a while, but how does Ultima’s proposed revision out the root higher than 1A?
- 5,417
- 6,222
Probably some outer gods scaling and separation of the root and emptiness
- 4,524
- 2,242
Ah, basic stuff then. Solid 11C
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
Huh?
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
R>F exists in the verse. Outer gods transcend them and Root transcends outer gods.
Last edited:
- 5,417
- 6,222
If it's the Fate/Extra stuff then it wouldn't qualify since it's an explicit analogy about higher dimensions which was explicitly pointed out as not counting on the thread.
- 4,524
- 2,242
Idk if that would be enough for anything higher than a few layers into 1A. R > F over 1A is just a layer into 1A
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
I haven't really gone through the post but someone showed me one of Ultima's comment that tied to how the mooncell and mystic code characters qualify still.
The Zelretch stuff also exists. That should definitely qualify.
- 5,417
- 6,222
Well I'll see how it goes if Ultima's thread is accepted (likely) and when the nasu thread is made.
Tdjwo
He/Him- 3,180
- 1,299
I never said anything about the outer gods or Root needing r>f. The root still transcends the rest of the verse the same way an High 1A would transcend a 1A structure. Or 0 transcending High 1A.
- 4,524
- 2,242
I mean, you'd need something that's already High 1A for this to apply. So idk if that would really apply even with Ultima's potential changes. But if it does, I wouldn't be complaining much
