Nasuverse Discussion Board (New Forum)

[Overlord_Darkness]

No, because it is incorrect to call them the same. They would be the same if they were different characters. But since the Nasuverse uses the verse Cthulhu Mythos, it's just worth referring to the original.
In addition, I would also like to note that Lovecraft's works in Nasuverse, according to Raum, although fictional, describe the Outer Universe (verse of the Cthulhu Mythos)

As we can see, Raum refers to Lovecraft's mythology, which he described in his books, as Yog-Sothoth (which is even correct, since the entire verse of Cthulhu Mythos exists as Yog-Sothoth). In fact, the words about mythology mean a lot, because it also means the existence of the Ultimate Void beyond the Final Gate.
We can also observe how Raum reacts to Zepar's words about Parallel Universes. "That's beyond us" I think should clearly explain what I wrote above.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

btw I can include an opinion about different verses in my CRT, which just refers to the Yog-Sothoth

 

[Tdjwo]

also btw, by any chance are you emmanuel emiya from quora?

No. But I'm a friend of Emmanuel E.M.I.Y.A. We both teach each other a lot about Nasuverse scalings. Along with Theoretical as well

 

[Tdjwo]

This means that they are not connected in any way at all, since they exist in different verses

This is what I think.

Yog Sothoth and the entirety of Cthulhu Mythos is inside Nasuverse. BUUUTTTTTTTTT.....They are entirely from another universe that’s unreachable to the normal universe. The reason I say this is because in Salem, Thr outer gods had trouble accessing the universe despite encompassing everything. Logically, this would be because of the root. The root as we know, is Apophatic meaning everything isn't enough to describe or comprehend it which would include the Outer Gods. It's power is restricting Yog-Sothoth from affecting the universe by conventional mean which is why Yog needs a host to bypass this problem. Kinda similar to how Roa uses non conventional means to bypass the root.
FGO simply took advantage of Lovecraft's copyright expiration and wanked the verse with it because wtf??

 

[Iiliminal]

Goku slams

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Yog Sothoth and the entirety of Cthulhu Mythos is inside Nasuverse.

Not exactly. Gilles describes the Outer Universe and the Outer Gods as something that cannot exist in the Nasuverse universe at all. He also noted that the only way for Outer Gods to interact with the Nasuverse verse is through servants in the Throne of Heroes.

For the Nasuverse, Cthulhu Mythos exists purely as fictional mythos.

 

[Tdjwo]

Not exactly. Gilles describes the Outer Universe and the Outer Gods as something that cannot exist in the Nasuverse universe at all. He also noted that the only way for Outer Gods to interact with the Nasuverse verse is through servants in the Throne of Heroes.

Gilles never said they cannot exist inside Nasuverse. They simply can't exist inside the normal universe/multiverse which is why they are described as encompassing everything yet they can't affect everything which is because of the root. The outer gods need vessels to interact with the world. Abigail for example is an host for Yog.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Gilles never said they cannot exist inside Nasuverse. They simply can't exist inside the normal universe/multiverse which is why they are described as encompassing everything yet they can't affect everything which is because of the root. The outer gods need vessels to interact with the world. Abigail for example is an host for Yog.

One sec, I have a scan from the Imaginary Scramble.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

For more scans u can check my CRT. I sent the post with all the scans there.

 

[Tdjwo]

Like I said they are not from the universe which is true but you know that the root isnt also from the universe. It's outside the universe and completely apophatic to it which is something Yog-Sothoth isnt. Yog and the root are from outside the universe entirely but the only difference is that the root created every logic, existence and beginning. So even if Yog-Sothoth is considered to encompass everything in the universe while existing beyond it, the root is claimed to be beyond even the description and the mere fact that Yog-Sothoth is able to be restricted means it's not the apex of power in the cosmology. The root represents apophatic theology. This is why it doesn't really matter if Yog-Sothoth is from another universe, thr mere fact that it exists in the Nasuverse franchise automatically makes it a creation of the ineffable root.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Wait? I didn't do anything wrong did I? I simply laughed at how BoastJr tried phrased his sentence.

Oh nvm then lel

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Like I said they are not from the universe which is true but you know that the root isnt also from the universe. It's outside the universe and completely apophatic to it which is something Yog-Sothoth isnt. Yog and the root are from outside the universe entirely but the only difference is that the root created every logic, existence and beginning. So even if Yog-Sothoth is considered to encompass everything in the universe while existing beyond it, the root is claimed to be beyond even the description and the mere fact that Yog-Sothoth is able to be restricted means it's not the apex of power in the cosmology. The root represents apophatic theology. This is why it doesn't really matter if Yog-Sothoth is from another universe, thr mere fact that it exists in the Nasuverse franchise automatically makes it a creation of the ineffable root.

In fact, Root and Yog-Sothoth from different verses. As you can see, Gilles states that only way to them to appear in the Nasuverse is through Throne of Heroes. That means that Yog-Sothoth have zero influences upon Nasuverse as well as the Root upon Cthulhu Mythos

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

This is also combined with the words of Lavinia, because if we consider the Outer Universe to be the Cthulhu Mythos verse, then the Yog is really an all-encompassing unity, but for his own verse and it appears in Nasuverse just like tentacle with some power.

 

[Iiliminal]

is throne of heroes accepted as 1-C btw?

 

[Tdjwo]

In fact, Root and Yog-Sothoth from different verses. As you can see, Gilles states that only way to them to appear in the Nasuverse is through Throne of Heroes. That means that Yog-Sothoth have zero influences upon Nasuverse as well as the Root upon Cthulhu Mythos

If you want to access the Nasuverse, you would always have to go through the roots' influence. Throne of Heores exists below the root. So if it needs to access the Throne before affecting the universe, then it means it was already an existence inside the root which makes perfect sense due to the roots nature of being unreachable to everything in the verse while creatjng everything in it. Basically, it's like saying Cthulhu Mythos exists inside the root but above everything else.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

If you want to access the Nasuverse, you would always have to go through the roots' influence. Throne of Heores exists below the root. So if it needs to access the Throne before affecting the universe, then it means it was already an existence inside the root which makes perfect sense due to the roots nature of being unreachable to everything in the verse while creatjng everything in it. Basically, it's like saying Cthulhu Mythos exists inside the root but above everything else.

Raum made a hole in the laws of the world, which allowed Outer Gods to manifest in servants. We can assume that they do not pass through the Root, but rather go around it, because, as Gilles de Rais said, the Nasuverse itself is impenetrable and impossible for them to penetrate.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

If they had to interact with the Root, they would never be able to get inside, because the Root can be represented by an impenetrable wall for them, but when someone from inside creates a break in the rules set by the Root for existence, this allows them to manifest in servants, and even with hole in the rules of the existence they cannot personally get into the Nasuverse.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

It's like... Foreigners serves as these very holes in the rules of existence

 

[Tdjwo]

Raum made a hole in the laws of the world, which allowed Outer Gods to manifest in servants. We can assume that they do not pass through the Root, but rather go around it, because, as Gilles de Rais said, the Nasuverse itself is impenetrable and impossible for them to penetrate.

Making holes in the laws of the world doesn't mean they made hole in the Root. Everything that exists and doesn't exist is always derived from the root. No matter how weird, obscure or large it is, once it's shown in the Nasuverse, then it's from the root even if it's a fictonal stoty by itself. How do you think Raum knows about the fictional Mythos? It's because it's something that exists inside the Nasuverse but it's very distant away from other universes. It's the Outer verse which is unreachable and encompasses every possible dimension. The Nasuverse is extremely large and obscure because of the roots' nature

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Making holes in the laws of the world doesn't mean they made hole in the Root. Everything that exists and doesn't exist is always derived from the root. No matter how weird, obscure or large it is, once it's shown in the Nasuverse, then it's from the root even if it's a fictonal stoty by itself. How do you think Raum knows about the fictional Mythos? It's because it's something that exists inside the Nasuverse but it's very distant away from other universes. It's the Outer verse which is unreachable and encompasses every possible dimension. The Nasuverse is extremely large and obscure because of the roots' nature

If we are talking about verses, then it is not necessary to put the Root above everything, exactly the same as the Yog-Sothoth. All we know for sure is that the root refers to the Nasuverse verse and nothing more. If we are talking about External Gods, then only breaking the rules allows them to manifest themselves and then in a limited form with the help of servants, which does not violate the influence of the Root inside the Nasuverse.
It is also worth noting that Cthulhu Mythos for Nasuverse are really fictional stories. For the entire Nasuverse.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Damn bro I guess the Tao (and the root) really do contain absolute infinity

That last paragraph has to be troll, because Tao doesn't do that.

Then just ignore it, but knowing you, it will be hard to do

Someone knows me well enough

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

I'm done with my Masada arc now trash verse caps at low 1-C goku solos.

 

[Tdjwo]

I'm done with my Masada arc now trash verse caps at low 1-C goku solos.

W. Finally regained your consciousness.

 

[Tarang123]

I'm beginning to think the Outer Gods in Fgo were directly gotten from Cthulhu Mythos. They arent Outer gods from Fate/Nasuverse. The reason is because it was specifically mentioned that they were derived from the popular fictional Mythos. Unlike other myths or legends that exists in the verse, Outer gods are the only one directly referenced to anorher fictional story aka the Lovecraftian stories.

Doesn’t particularly matter in scaling terms unless they directly follow the cosmology and stuff of CM

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Doesn’t particularly matter in scaling terms unless they directly follow the cosmology and stuff of CM

Downplaying

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

This is exactly why I get pissed at those who claim Negative Theology scaling to Tier 0 is a NLF or compare it to omnipotence because of this very reason.

Because they don't understand it.

It's above God?

Tao has different aspects transcending each other so ehh, if you look at the wholeness aspect of it and the Ineffable aspect of it as an example too soo.

Well then, does God truly exist as a being?

No.

God is that emptiness that is the root but then again you can't define the root as "being" so the term God is kinda inappropriate for it but you can call it God for it being the highest existence and being responsible for all of creation.

But infinity in Tao despite sharing similarities with absolute infinity is not "God" it just shares characteristics of being distinguished from transfinite infinities and ineffable.

I meant that Solomon's story claims that God gave him 10 rings. Does it mean that God is something... Metaphysical that exist? Or the Root itself gave Solomon this 10 rings

If it refers to the root then, the obviously the name "God" means nothing considering the root goes by many names lol.

I'm beginning to think the Outer Gods in Fgo were directly gotten from Cthulhu Mythos.

No.

The reason is because it was specifically mentioned that they were derived from the popular fictional Mythos

Yes, many other mythological beings in the nasuverse can be equally referred to as "oh this God comes from the Greek mythology".

They did the same for chaos, such a basis is pretty horrid to say they are actual outer gods.

That is what I'm saying. Nasuverse doesn't have any Yog. The Yog-Sothoth in Nasuverse is directly from Cthulhu Mythos. I think we've been getting everything about Salem wrong.

No, they are just not; its bad enough they they don't share the names of the mythology they were inspired by. If one claims something is indistinguishable from another but yet there's atleast one property that distinguishes them then they are not indistinguishable. In this case it's simple their names.

I don't need to remind anyone that yog's name is not sut typhon.

I have already said this many times. This is exactly the reason why Raum so referred to the Outer Gods at the beginning of Salem: he literally noted that these entities are literally from another universe that has nothing to do with their own at all

Chaos from the greek mythology and all machine gods come from another universe this means nothing at all...

Exactly.


There's no reason why we shouldn't scale Yog-Sothoth to OG one if they are exactly the same.

I strongly extremely disagree with this proposal but I shall consult don't talk Dt as I trust his judgment.

they're not the same, they're literally the same character.

Let me help you show you just how wrong that is rq. Let's break this down using basic tautology if we have A(Yog), A=A and A is A if and only if A. What that means is A has ontological relations to A that makes A, A. Now let's take one property of A (A's names which is Yog) it should have a relation to A to be A; Yog is Yog if he shares that one property of his name being Yog.

But that's not the case in the nasuverse he goes by the name sut typhon, so T(A=A) isn't applicable because A doesn't share every property of A to A, meaning Yog is distinguishable from Sut.

Hence they are not the same simple

does that mean Yog is not originated form the root?

He is, some people here are just confused nasuverse outer gods don't scale to real lovecraft outer gods, them being in the nasuverse in the first place is self defeating to the narrative portrayed in actual love craft.

This means that they are not connected in any way at all, since they exist in different verses

Coming from a different universe doesn't mean you're not from the nasuverse, No.

All of those outer gods are just victims of the Root cope.

As we can see, Raum refers to Lovecraft's mythology, which he described in his books, as Yog-Sothoth (which is even correct, since the entire verse of Cthulhu Mythos exists as Yog-Sothoth). In fact, the words about mythology mean a lot, because it also means the existence of the Ultimate Void beyond the Final Gate.
We can also observe how Raum reacts to Zepar's words about Parallel Universes. "That's beyond us" I think should clearly explain what I wrote above.

That's how every mythology works in the nasuverse too, that's not a special thing.

Logically, this would be because of the root

I'd like to clarify that the root doesn't get involved with creation it just drives creation its not sentient its just nothingness I don't see why the root would do that.

Not exactly. Gilles describes the Outer Universe and the Outer Gods as something that cannot exist in the Nasuverse universe at all

He never said that, he specified "the universe". Not the nasuverse.

He also noted that the only way for Outer Gods to interact with the Nasuverse verse is through servants in the Throne of Heroes

Once again misinterpreting the actual source material they never said the nasuverse, like uhhh do you think fictional characters like him are aware that they are in the nasuverse

Ahem anyways he just said "our universe" lol

In fact, Root and Yog-Sothoth from different verses. As you can see, Gilles states that only way to them to appear in the Nasuverse is through Throne of Heroes. That means that Yog-Sothoth have zero influences upon Nasuverse as well as the Root upon Cthulhu Mythos

No.

This is also combined with the words of Lavinia, because if we consider the Outer Universe to be the Cthulhu Mythos verse, then the Yog is really an all-encompassing unity, but for his own verse and it appears in Nasuverse just like tentacle with some power.

All encompassing unity that is excluding the root lel

Raum made a hole in the laws of the world, which allowed Outer Gods to manifest in servants. We can assume that they do not pass through the Root, but rather go around it, because, as Gilles de Rais said, the Nasuverse itself is impenetrable and impossible for them to penetrate.

This is getting ridiculous and it's becoming a comedy show, the root encompasses all of creation as it's aspect of the akashic records how do you go around something that encompasses creation omnidirectionally so.

If we are talking about verses, then it is not necessary to put the Root above everything, exactly the same as the Yog-Sothoth. All we know for sure is that the root refers to the Nasuverse verse and nothing more. If we are talking about External Gods, then only breaking the rules allows them to manifest themselves and then in a limited form with the help of servants, which does not violate the influence of the Root inside the Nasuverse.
It is also worth noting that Cthulhu Mythos for Nasuverse are really fictional stories. For the entire Nasuverse.

This is a reach stop lol lovecraft of the nasuverse is solely of the nasuverse not the actual one.

ROOOOOOOOOOT VICTIIIIIIIIM

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Doesn’t particularly matter in scaling terms unless they directly follow the cosmology and stuff of CM

actually that should mean that Yog-Sothoth still tier 0 'cause it's the same character from CM. However, for Abby it really doesn't matter

 

[Tarang123]

actually that should mean that Yog-Sothoth still tier 0 'cause it's the same character from CM. However, for Abby it really doesn't matter

I just said it doesn’t really matter if the cosmology itself isn’t the same

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

actually that should mean that Yog-Sothoth still tier 0 'cause it's the same character from CM. However, for Abby it really doesn't matter

No.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Once again misinterpreting the actual source material they never said the nasuverse, like uhhh do you think fictional characters like him are aware that they are in the nasuverse

Ahem anyways he just said "our universe" lol

For us their words about the whole their Universe is the words about Nasuverse

 

[Mageman460]

For all the people arguing about Cthulu Mythos being canon to Nasuverse, please take a look at our Crossover Scaling Rules.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

For all the people arguing about Cthulu Mythos being canon to Nasuverse, please take a look at our Crossover Scaling Rules.

• The works must be written by a single same person.
• There should not be considerable contradictions in the respective displayed power levels for the compared characters.
• The statements need to clearly have been intended seriously.
• The compared characters must share a similar nature in terms of types of powers.

1) Nope. (Marvel and Capcom as example)
2) It seems fine 'cause Yog was described exactly as one from the CM
3) Fine.
4) Fine.

 

[Tarang123]

1) Nope. (Marvel and Capcom as example)
2) It seems fine 'cause Yog was described exactly as one from the CM
3) Fine.
4) Fine

You do realize that this would lead to verses like Demonbane’s getting the same treatment considering their depiction of Outer Gods, but we don’t do that. The outer gods have no Ultimate Void, or Court of Azathoth, or Dreamlands, or whatever to scale above. It’s nonsensical to then give them the same tier as the Outer Gods who have an established cosmology to scale above

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Dreamlands

Actually, they have Dreamlands

 

[Tarang123]

Actually, they have Dreamlands

First of all, scans. Second, even then it doesn’t scale above the universes which work in a completely different way than Nasu’s universes. It requires way too much proof that Nasuverse just completely lacks

 

[Mageman460]

You realize the MvC characters don't scale to their Marvel and Capcom counterparts right? They have their own scaling that happens in the games. Also yeah no, Nasuverse doesn't have most of the stuff that makes Tier 1-A and 0 Cthulu Mythos.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

this would lead to verses like Demonbane’s getting the same treatment considering their depiction of Outer Gods

Well, why not? If the characters are taken from the original source with their exact descriptions, then personally I don't see any problem.

First of all, scans

It requires way too much proof that Nasuverse just completely lacks

Seems based

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

I hope that one day Nasu will release Azathoth related Servant with good description

 

[Tarang123]

Well, why not? If the characters are taken from the original source with their exact descriptions, then personally I don't see any problem.

Seems based

It’s for the reasons I laid out, it requires actual proof that they work in the same way and scale above the same cosmology which you wouldn’t be able to prove