Naruto to Boruto Discussion Thread

[karo_senpaii]

EMS Madara also used a lot of Chakra himself. Doesn't Sage Mode help in preserving a person's stamina based on this or is this specific to Toad Sage Mode?

That's when you retain and keep the sage energy in you.
When you immediately use the sage energy you get into a powerful justsu it's a different case. Did you see naruto pant after exhausting his sage energy on jutsu?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Why is hashirama profile incorrect? I know the rel speed everyone scales too is being revised but why is hashirama sub rel? His profile should say "relativistic, higher in sage mode"

 

[Sasukesama0492]

So when's the God Tier revision dropping?

You added 1 month to the release date.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

That's when you retain and keep the sage energy in you.
When you immediately use the sage energy you get into a powerful justsu it's a different case. Did you see naruto pant after exhausting his sage energy on jutsu?

I'm talking about their internal energies if SM helps them conserve some of it or does it still use the same amount to fuel a Jutsu.

Does SM help save a small amount of your internal energies by substituting some of it with Natural Energy to fuel the same Jutsu? Or does it still consume the same amount of internal energies just with a similar amount of natural energy included?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Depends on how you take canonicity, cause you could say that the company that owns Naruto has as much right to create scaling for the series as Kishimoto.

thats true but there would still be a hierarchy in terms of value in regards to statements, for example a an official licensed novel should logically have more say than a hypothetical promotion that ties into a restaurant meal or something

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

When I say WoG I mean a narrator that isn't prone to subjective biases and personal experiences.

Well, again, depends on where that "narration" takes place. The source matters when discussing canonicity.

I agree, which is why I find the statement even existing strange. Not necessarily that I think it overturns Alive Madara>Edo Madara.

Hey, I mean, contradictions exist everywhere. That's why something as audacious as Death of the Author even exists in the first place. In this case, it's Death of the promotional material, or whatever lmao

Depends on how you take canonicity, cause you could say that the company that owns Naruto has as much right to create scaling for the series as Kishimoto.

Not really, no. Like, if say an officially licensed novel or a sequel series like Boruto gives us a statement that (hypothetically) contradicts the manga, then we can have a real conversation. One could argue "hey, it's official canon information, and it's more recent, so maybe X was just retconned". Not everyone agrees with that line of thinking btw, but it's at least a valid approach in my book.
On the other hand, I wouldn't take the word of some executive/editor from Jump over Kishimoto's. Likewise, the same goes for promotional material. It can never supersede the primary canon. Like Shadow said, there's a hierarchy.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

When both the Shin Sūsenju, Majestic Attire: Susano'o, and Kurama were no longer in play, and EMS Madara and Sage Mode Hashirama went on a one on one, Hashirama was noticeably more injured than Madara in the end of their clash, though Hashi was still able to pop out one more Wood Clone for his bait'n switch tactic

Context though… Hashirama didn’t try to kill him throughout that entire 1-on-1 UNTIL the end. So Madara only really lasted against a SM Hashirama holding back.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

So Madara only really lasted against a SM Hashirama holding back.

I mean, the first time Hashirama fought EMS Madara, he easily beat him, possibly just in his (Hashi) base form, without the intention to kill Madara. Then the second time Hashirama fought EMS Madara, after Madara had the left the village for some unknown time, EMS Madara was able to put up a better fight in their second clash.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Hello, isn't BE Orochimaru supposed to be FTL? In the novel, Base was upgraded to Rel+ because it took the scale from Naruto. It later became Base Naruto FTL. In this case, shouldn't BE Orochimaru also ascend to FTL?

Orochimaru (Naruto)

Orochimaru (大蛇丸, Orochimaru) is one of Konohagakure's legendary Sannin. Orochimaru was a mad scientist with an unsatiable lust for studying the world's secrets. To this end, he tried to find a way to live forever so he could have as much time as he needed to pursue his ambition. When Orochimaru...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Hello, isn't BE Orochimaru supposed to be FTL? In the novel, Base was upgraded to Rel+ because it took the scale from Naruto. It later became Base Naruto FTL. In this case, shouldn't BE Orochimaru also ascend to FTL?

Orochimaru (Naruto)

Orochimaru (大蛇丸, Orochimaru) is one of Konohagakure's legendary Sannin. Orochimaru was a mad scientist with an unsatiable lust for studying the world's secrets. To this end, he tried to find a way to live forever so he could have as much time as he needed to pursue his ambition. When Orochimaru...

vsbattles.fandom.com

He scales to a depowered base Naruto who can't even manipulate chakra, iirc.

 

[Padaruyos]

He scales to a depowered base Naruto who can't even manipulate chakra, iirc.

Didn't that same Naruto dodge photon beams?

Do we have an actual calc for that or do we just assume Relativistic as a baseline for "dodging light"?

 

[Padaruyos]

Context though… Hashirama didn’t try to kill him throughout that entire 1-on-1 UNTIL the end. So Madara only really lasted against a SM Hashirama holding back.

I still think Hashirama ended up draining most of his chakra with Shinsu Senju, he was heavily panting after he destroyed the MAS. Madara is no where near as tired iirc.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Didn't that same Naruto dodge photon beams?

Do we have an actual calc for that or do we just assume Relativistic as a baseline for "dodging light"?

The latter, and honestly, I think it should be removed until we get an adaptation for that novel allowing us to actually calc the feat. Dodging something moving at LS can range from MHS to MFTL+, it's really arbitrary to just place it at Relativistic randomly.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Merry Christmas nerds

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I still think Hashirama ended up draining most of his chakra with Shinsu Senju, he was heavily panting after he destroyed the MAS. Madara is no where near as tired iirc.

Looking back at all the context, it seems Hashirama was the stronger of the two in general.

Hashirama stated that Pre-EMS Madara had wanted to "erase me (Hashi) from his (Mads) life". And that he and Mads fought each other day after day, but also stated that "I (Hashi) had never abandoned our (Hashi × Mads) dream (Konoha)" sorta implying he was holding back all those times.

And during the battle where Tobirama fatally wounded Izuna, Hashirama stated "Madara, you cannot win against me". Which seems kinda boastful but may be true since Hashi at this point would have a proper gauge of Pre-EMS Madara's power. He also asked Madara to join the two clans so that the conflict, the warring states it seems, would eventually stop due to the strongest clans joining.

Then appears EMS Madara, after Izuna's death, who went on to fight Hashirama again. End result is "Madara's back touched the ground for the very first time", "at the end of a battle that lasted a whole day". Hashi still seemed to have held back because he still wanted that whole "making a village with my bff" dream with Mads.

After making a village with Hashi, Mads goes on another villain spree and stated to Hashi, "You're the only one who's an even match for me", and "I'm looking forward to the battles we'll fight". Which is something reflected in his entry in the 4th Databook;

Madara’s hatred was split between (two entities): Hashirama, because of his incompatible dreams, and also towards the village of Konoha. He then unfolded [incidents] upon Hashirama by attacking the village on multiple occasions. In a battle to the death, and with Madara’s defeat, the curtain closed [on that era]. However, that was the rise of the curtain for a great dream. Madara escaped death. Cutting apart the fate of love and hatred, he aspired to a world even without winners or losers. As for Madara, reality was certainly Hell. At the end of his lifespan of sorrow and anguish, and at the moment where his life was about to collapse, Madara finally awakened the 「Rinnegan」. It was dwelling in Madara’s pair of eyes: the power to change his dream into an ideal reality!

Implying that Hashirama beat back EMS Madara multiple times until Madara brought Kurama along to the fight.

Though, a section in his entry does say this;

They are equal in strength. Madara remained unchanged, but Hashirama changed for the sake of the village. A paper-thin difference [between the two of them] decided victory or defeat

Note, that these translations come from Narutoversity.

 

[SlendVeny]

Didn't that same Naruto dodge photon beams?

Do we have an actual calc for that or do we just assume Relativistic as a baseline for "dodging light"?

He could dodge light, but couldn't dodge Orochimaru? Whatever could that mean?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Looking back at all the context, it seems Hashirama was the stronger of the two in general.

Hashirama stated that Pre-EMS Madara had wanted to "erase me (Hashi) from his (Mads) life". And that he and Mads fought each other day after day, but also stated that "I (Hashi) had never abandoned our (Hashi × Mads) dream (Konoha)" sorta implying he was holding back all those times.

And during the battle where Tobirama fatally wounded Izuna, Hashirama stated "Madara, you cannot win against me". Which seems kinda boastful but may be true since Hashi at this point would have a proper gauge of Pre-EMS Madara's power. He also asked Madara to join the two clans so that the conflict, the warring states it seems, would eventually stop due to the strongest clans joining.

Then appears EMS Madara, after Izuna's death, who went on to fight Hashirama again. End result is "Madara's back touched the ground for the very first time", "at the end of a battle that lasted a whole day". Hashi still seemed to have held back because he still wanted that whole "making a village with my bff" dream with Mads.

After making a village with Hashi, Mads goes on another villain spree and stated to Hashi, "You're the only one who's an even match for me", and "I'm looking forward to the battles we'll fight". Which is something reflected in his entry in the 4th Databook;

Madara’s hatred was split between (two entities): Hashirama, because of his incompatible dreams, and also towards the village of Konoha. He then unfolded [incidents] upon Hashirama by attacking the village on multiple occasions. In a battle to the death, and with Madara’s defeat, the curtain closed [on that era]. However, that was the rise of the curtain for a great dream. Madara escaped death. Cutting apart the fate of love and hatred, he aspired to a world even without winners or losers. As for Madara, reality was certainly Hell. At the end of his lifespan of sorrow and anguish, and at the moment where his life was about to collapse, Madara finally awakened the 「Rinnegan」. It was dwelling in Madara’s pair of eyes: the power to change his dream into an ideal reality!

Implying that Hashirama beat back EMS Madara multiple times until Madara brought Kurama along to the fight.

Though, a section in his entry does say this;

They are equal in strength. Madara remained unchanged, but Hashirama changed for the sake of the village. A paper-thin difference [between the two of them] decided victory or defeat

Note, that these translations come from Narutoversity.

There's one thing I disagree with here.

Hashi still seemed to have held back because he still wanted that whole "making a village with my bff" dream with Mads.

You mean boyfriend*/future husband.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

You mean boyfriend*/future husband.

Spoiler: Here's a revised edition

Hashi still still wanted that whole "making a baby with my bff" dream with Mads.

Best Fvcking Friend, in a literally sense

After making a baby with Hashi, Mads goes on to divorce Hashi and stated, "You're the only one who's a match for me, I'm looking forward to the divorce battles we'll fight".

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Spoiler: Here's a revised edition

Hashi still still wanted that whole "making a baby with my bff" dream with Mads.

Best Fvcking Friend, in a literally sense

After making a baby with Hashi, Mads goes on to divorce Hashi and stated, "You're the only one who's a match for me, I'm looking forward to the divorce battles we'll fight".

Now this is more like it.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Now this is more like it.

 

[Excellence616]

FTL Narutoverse question

Why is the anime version of the lightfang feat used over the manga?

vsbattles.com

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Eh… I wouldn’t really say Alive Madara ~ Hashirama tbh. Hashirama wasn’t willing to kill Madara literally until the end. Madara getting his cheeks clapped to a Bloodlusted Hashirama

I’d only put a hypothetical “Alive Rinnegan Madara” on Hashirama Level and better hax via his showings against Edo SM Hashi.

He is.

Well, again, depends on where that "narration" takes place. The source matters when discussing canonicity.

Hey, I mean, contradictions exist everywhere. That's why something as audacious as Death of the Author even exists in the first place. In this case, it's Death of the promotional material, or whatever lmao

Not really, no. Like, if say an officially licensed novel or a sequel series like Boruto gives us a statement that (hypothetically) contradicts the manga, then we can have a real conversation. One could argue "hey, it's official canon information, and it's more recent, so maybe X was just retconned". Not everyone agrees with that line of thinking btw, but it's at least a valid approach in my book.
On the other hand, I wouldn't take the word of some executive/editor from Jump over Kishimoto's. Likewise, the same goes for promotional material. It can never supersede the primary canon. Like Shadow said, there's a hierarchy.

Fair enough though I'm curious if there will be some statement from Kishimoto regarding the Birthday columns at some point

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Fair enough though I'm curious if there will be some statement from Kishimoto regarding the Birthday columns at some point

Would be nice. Tbh, anything from Kishi is rather nice at this point.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

He is.

Could it be possible that EMS Madara had done some off-screen training before and after leaving Konoha, and attacking it multiple times?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Could it be possible that EMS Madara had done some off-screen training before and after leaving Konoha, and attacking it multiple times?

I doubt he attacked multiple times but training is possible

 

[HelloThere1089]

Could it be possible that EMS Madara had done some off-screen training before and after leaving Konoha, and attacking it multiple times?

Madara training furiously just so that some McDonalds commercial doesn't contradict the manga

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It would still contradict it

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I doubt he attacked multiple times

Another part on the page where you took your scan from is where it says he attacked the village multiple times. From Narutoversity

He then unfolded [incidents] upon Hashirama by attacking the village on multiple occasions.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Another part on the page where you took your scan from is where it says he attacked the village multiple times. From Narutoversity

I believe something to this effect was also in the manga.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

I believe something to this effect was also in the manga.

Obito's retelling of Madara's story to Sasuke? Or one of the Konoha council of the elderly meetings?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Obito's retelling of Madara's story to Sasuke? Or one of the Konoha council of the elderly meetings?

If I come across the statement I was thinking of, I'll let you know.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

If I come across the statement I was thinking of, I'll let you know.

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

He is.

This doesn’t prove they’re equal. Again, THIS Hashirama refused to kill him UNTIL the very end of their fight. Hell, base Hashirama’s Mokuton could already contend with MAS Strength.

This statement would be fine, had the referencing Image not shown both clashing in Base.

Sure, in Taijutsu, Base Hashirama and Madara are equal. “That” part was never in question.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Another part on the page where you took your scan from is where it says he attacked the village multiple times. From Narutoversity

The raws are weird and might be saying their battle had many negative effects on the village (like a bunch of shockwaves or something).
里を襲い幾度となく繰り広げた柱間との死闘は、マダラの敗北で幕を下ろした。
The deadly battle with Hashirama, which had ravaged the village many times, ended with Madara's defeat.

This doesn’t prove they’re equal. Again, THIS Hashirama refused to kill him UNTIL the very end of their fight. Hell, base Hashirama’s Mokuton could already contend with MAS Strength.

Madara knows him very well and says he's an even match for him. Also Hashirama literally said "So be it" when going Sage Mode as if he'd resolved to kill him.

Base Hashirama was literally just running and knew he had to go Sage Mode. He couldn't even beat Kurama on his own. And there's no way he would've done anything against Evil Disturbance Waltz.

This statement would be fine, had the referencing Image not shown both clashing in Base.

Sure, in Taijutsu, Base Hashirama and Madara are equal. “That” part was never in question.

It's clearly referring to the battle overall, that's just the moment it ended and Hashirama showed the paper thin difference that decided his victory.

 

[SlendVeny]

Need more Garaga

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

Madara knows him very well and says he's an even match for him. Also Hashirama literally said "So be it" when going Sage Mode as if he'd resolved to kill him.

Madara is boastful and cocky. His credibility over those statements is shaky at best. Exhibit A (As if the Biju weren’t spread across the continent and inside hosts). Exhibit B (Talking high powered just to get his shit rocked and packed out “before” needing another power-up…). Etc…

Also, you are artificially capping Hashirama here. The only thing we can draw from that interaction between this is Nobody in the world but Hashirama can match Madara. That was established already in the Warring States, and Hashirama even told Madara, he couldn’t beat him and Hashirama was never bloodlusted. Ntm even in that last fight, BASE Hashirama could contend with MAS Strength, so idk what else to say here…

And while he did say that, “this” gives us further context… Hashirama was waffling that entire time. He didn’t actually “resolve” himself to kill Madara until this point. It’s basically Naruto vs Delta. [Insert Hashirama]

Base Hashirama was literally just running and knew he had to go Sage Mode. He couldn't even beat Kurama on his own. And there's no way he would've done anything against Evil Disturbance Waltz.

Madara didn’t make Hashirama run for any reason other than Hashirama wanted to keep Collateral Damage Down after seeing the DC, which is why me moved the fight to the coast. Hashirama didn’t “need” SM based on the fact he showcased his Base could contend (Tanking Kurama’s TBB as easily as PS / Catching MAS strike from a disadvantaged position “in amusement” while making counter strikes). SM certainly helped him put him down faster, but Base Hashirama already rivaled Madara + Kurama using SM did nothing but widen that margin.

Saying he can’t beat 100% Kurama on his own is Cap, and you know it!

Idk what EDW is…

It's clearly referring to the battle overall, that's just the moment it ended and Hashirama showed the paper thin difference that decided his victory.

This particular segment is gonna lead to a Semantics argument… I can’t…

 

[NeoKingOfLight]

I mean bruh laughed at MAS… Madara was a joke to that boy…

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Guys, MadaHashi scaling is some of the simplest there is....
We have so much material, that it's kinda impossible to get it wrong lol.

Physically, they're relative. Whether you believe EMS Madara is physically relative to SM Hashi or not is irrelevant, they'd be close either way.

I believe their "Mid tier Jutsu" are also probably relative. So, like, Madara's large scale Katons and early Susano'o stages vs Hashirama's more tame Mokuton techniques. I believe this is supported by some depictions of their clashes, and just makes sense in general since they're overall relative. So it makes sense for their techniques of a similar level to be relative as well.

Then you get to the big guns, and they are once again relative. We know that Kurama ~ Perfect Susano'o ~ Wood Golem.

And finally, you have the super megazord tier, with the MAS and Shinsusenju. The Shinsusenju is very clearly more powerful, but again, it's close. Also, it winning that clash didn't result in Madara losing the fight, so there is that.

On the whole, they're relative. There are no easy fights between these two. As the Databook puts it, it's always a paper thin difference that separates them.
But the fact still remains, Madara always lost to Hashirama - a fact he himself acknowledged on multiple occasions. That doesn't mean that Madara isn't his rival, or "equal", it just means he always came up short by a little bit. The hierarchy is very clear there. We know how the fights went, we know how most of their techniques compare, more or less. There really shouldn't be much debate here.

 

[Naeblis495]

Bro still need a whole ass bijuu to merely compete. Madara ain't shit compared to hashirama in a true 1v1 without any outside help. He would get clapped in seconds by big chad thousand hands boudha

 

[Padaruyos]

Sage Mode seems to be something Hashirama learned shortly before his final fight with Madara. He wasn't using Sage Mode in their fights during the warring states era.

What are the odds that Madara thought the Wood Golem is his full power, and thought having Kurama with him is a 100% guaranteed W? Only for Hashirama to bust out Sage Mode and absolutely obliterate MAS.