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Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

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KingTempest said:
Naruto doesn't even know how strong he was when he was in KN6. That doesn't work.
Click to expand...
It doesn’t really change the scaling, so meh. I don’t mind it being considered just ‘Stronger than Sage Mode.’
KingTempest said:
How would it work for the other Jinchuriki modes (V1 and 2)?
Click to expand...
It wouldn’t apply to the other jinchūriki if that’s what you mean.
KingTempest said:
Kakashi has seen Naruto in KN0 and KN1. which one was he speaking for? He said w/out Yamato suppressing Kurama's chakra it should be 100x more, but what about when Yamato's not suppressing it and not going crazy? What's that?
Click to expand...
All he said was “the Nine-Tails’ chakra.” He didn’t give a tail number, so I would assume KN0. Either way, definitely scales to KN4, which is what we have in Naruto’s key.
KingTempest said:
Is KCM a 25 multiplier too?
Click to expand...
It’s also Kurama’s chakra, so yes, I don’t see why not. It’d more than likely be higher than that, but we don’t have a quantifiable number.
 
That doesn’t seem like remotely enough to claim Gaara’s using any jinchūriki specific powers, especially since there’s no statements implying that and Gaara himself isn’t partially transforming.
 
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LordTracer said:
It wouldn’t apply to the other jinchūriki if that’s what you mean.
Click to expand...
Naw I meant like Naruto's own personal jinchuriki modes. Like 1 tail, 3 tail, 4 tail, all of that.
LordTracer said:
All he said was “the Nine-Tails’ chakra.” He didn’t give a tail number, so I would assume KN0.
Click to expand...
My main question is. what about on a daily basis when Yamato's not suppressing it? Is that what he meant?

I don't think they meant "when Naruto's in base" he's 4x stronger. We see Yamato suppressing the nine tails' chakra here while Naruto's still in base, we see him say he's here to control it.
I really don't think he's talking about Jinchuriki modes, I think he's just talking about
  1. His chakra that's merged w/ Kurama's already.
  2. The sum of all Kurama's chakra, not just the version states.
LordTracer said:
Either way, definitely scales to KN4, which is what we have in Naruto’s key.
Click to expand...
I heard of something involving the version 2 states, but I'll tell you guys soon when I get on my computer.
 
Both could be valid.
Naruto has only 4x more chakra than Kakashi, and can split his chakra evenly between 1000 clones, and can do rasengan with all of them.
Kakashi said that he couldn't do the training w/ clones cause of his chakra amount, but Naruto's is only 4 more and he can train with hundereds of clones for hours.
So honestly, I'm leaning towards 2, but 1 is valid too.
 
Screw it, Naruto can split his chakra evenly between 1000 clones, use SPSM with all of them, and can still use rasengan. It's definitely 2. Kakashi has average chakra amounts and can casually, while low on chakra, make dozens of clones.
 
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KingTempest said:
Naw I meant like Naruto's own personal jinchuriki modes. Like 1 tail, 3 tail, 4 tail, all of that.
Click to expand...
Well, since Kakashi just said Nine-Tails chakra so yeah, those should scale.
KingTempest said:
My main question is. what about on a daily basis when Yamato's not suppressing it? Is that what he meant?

I don't think they meant "when Naruto's in base" he's 4x stronger. We see Yamato suppressing the nine tails' chakra here while Naruto's still in base, we see him say he's here to control it.
I really don't think he's talking about Jinchuriki modes, I think he's just talking about
  1. His chakra that's merged w/ Kurama's already.
  2. The sum of all Kurama's chakra, not just the version states.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Kakashi’s statement is pretty blatant. Naruto, without the Kyuubi chakra, has 4x as much chakra as him. With the Kyuubi chakra, he has 100x as much. It’s blatantly saying Kurama chakra = 25x increase on Naruto’s base.
 
LordTracer said:
I disagree. Kakashi’s statement is pretty blatant. Naruto, without the Kyuubi chakra, has 4x as much chakra as him. With the Kyuubi chakra, he has 100x as much. It’s blatantly saying Kurama chakra = 25x increase on Naruto’s base.
Click to expand...
That’s the thing, he said when Yamato isn’t suppressing it, not when Naruto isn’t accessing it, and he said this right before Yamato came out to help Naruto with his training.

Yamato was suppressing Kurama’s chakra and Kurama’s chakra was still coming out. Naruto went 4 tailed version 1 for Christ’s sake. And if we use the last sentence logic, it just means that all Naruto’s jinchuriki modes are equal, which we know isn’t the case.
 
KingTempest said:
  1. Stronger than Sage Mode is most likely for AP, Naruto is purely AP no hax so that works.
  2. I'd put the struggle with Son Goku as a lifting strength feat tbh.
  3. Those V2 Jinchurikis were whooping his ass, same V2 Jinchurikis were getting held off by 6th Gate Guy (who had issues with base 30% Kisame).
  4. KN6 has no backing, we can't use that. Naruto said he was stronger than he was back then, but he didn't even know what was going on when he was rampaging
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1. Yeah, I agree.

2. Sure, that works too. Though you could argue it puts him in the same ballpark physically, since bite forces are usually much stronger than physical attacks. Though I understand if you think that's a bit of a stretch.

3. Yeah, no. I disagree there. He overpowered his attack upon accessing the 6th gate. Then he proceeded to dominate and utterly defeat him.

Edit: As for Naruto, he was able to withstand multiple hits from the Edo V2 Jinchūriki, so his durability should at least scale to them. Same goes for Kakashi and Guy.

4. I agree, but he also has access to a significant amount of Kyuubi chakra at this point that he can perfectly control. But I'm admittedly iffy on KCM scaling to KN6, so whatever. Count me as neutral on this.
 
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KingTempest said:
That’s the thing, he said when Yamato isn’t suppressing it, not when Naruto isn’t accessing it, and he said this right before Yamato came out to help Naruto with his training.

Yamato was suppressing Kurama’s chakra and Kurama’s chakra was still coming out. Naruto went 4 tailed version 1 for Christ’s sake. And if we use the last sentence logic, it just means that all Naruto’s jinchuriki modes are equal, which we know isn’t the case.
Click to expand...
So then V2 KN4 is 25x stronger than suppressed V1 KN4, doesn’t change much. No part of Kakashi’s statement would mean all of the jinchūriki modes are equal.

I feel like you’re making this way more complicated than it actually is. Naruto with Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 4. Naruto without Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 100. That’s pretty clear cut.
 
> Naruto with Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 4. Naruto without Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 100.

That's not the same thing as saying any of his particular transformations = a straightforward 25x multiplier.

If base Naruto got stronger, who is to say that that multiplier stays the exact same?
 
Damage3245 said:
> Naruto with Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 4. Naruto without Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 100.

That's not the same thing as saying any of his particular transformations = a straightforward 25x multiplier.

If base Naruto got stronger, who is to say that that multiplier stays the exact same?
Click to expand...
Because it’s not dependent on Naruto. It’s dependent on Kurama.
 
Damage3245 said:
If base Naruto got stronger, who is to say that that multiplier stays the exact same?
Click to expand...
Well, we have no real quantifiable way of measuring base Naruto's growth post-Akatsuki suppression arc, so for all we know he might not have gotten any stronger. There are no significant feats or statements that I can remember, so it's useless to speculate imo.
 
UchihaSlayer96 said:
Well, we have no real quantifiable way of measuring base Naruto's growth post-Akatsuki suppression arc, so for all we know he might not have gotten any stronger. There are no significant feats or statements that I can remember, so it's useless to speculate imo.
Click to expand...
All we have is Kakashi saying Naruto surpassed him, and that was only after seeing the Rasenshuriken that killed Kakuzu. And going by the logic of some people in this thread, surpassed doesn’t immediately mean strength.
 
@LordTracer

Jinchuriki (Alive)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Base)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Partial Transformation)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (V2 Transformation)


Bijuu (No Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Perfect Jinchuriki)
=
Bijuu (Edo-Jinchuriki-Paths)

Is this the scaling that we're gonna use?
 
LordTracer said:
So then V2 KN4 is 25x stronger than suppressed V1 KN4, doesn’t change much. No part of Kakashi’s statement would mean all of the jinchūriki modes are equal.
Click to expand...
That doesn't even make sense.
No part of Kakashi's statement means he gets 25 times stronger. You think at the final fight when Naruto fought Sasuke and they were tired as shit, Naruto got 25x stronger, faster, more durable? Not at all.
LordTracer said:
I feel like you’re making this way more complicated than it actually is. Naruto with Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 4. Naruto without Kyuubi chakra suppressed = 100. That’s pretty clear cut.
Click to expand...
Naruto while Yamato is suppressing Kurama's chakra during training = 4. Naruto without Yamato is 100.
You guys ended up sticking "suppressed by Yamato" with "base", then out of nowhere threw a multiplier on it because of random numbers. That's not how it works.
When Yamato does this, he has 25x less chakra. When he's done, it's back to normal. Not KN0, not V1 or V2, the suppression of Yamato.
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
@LordTracer

Jinchuriki (Alive)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Base)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Partial Transformation)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (V2 Transformation)
Click to expand...
How is alive weaker than reanimated?
OneBleachHurricane said:
Bijuu (No Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Perfect Jinchuriki)
=
Bijuu (Edo-Jinchuriki-Paths)

Is this the scaling that we're gonna use?
Click to expand...
Yagura was a perfect jin and he did the least work.

UchihaSlayer96 said:
@KingTempest
Also, I think Itachi and Kisame stated that the 30% clones aren't only limited in terms of chakra amount/stamina, but also strength.
Click to expand...
Because those weren't real clones, they were others w/ given jutsu
 
If Yagura was a Perfect Jinchuriki then it wouldn't make sense for Obito to place him under Genjutsu because his Tailed Beast could break him out of it.
 
KingTempest said:
That doesn't even make sense.
No part of Kakashi's statement means he gets 25 times stronger. You think at the final fight when Naruto fought Sasuke and they were tired as shit, Naruto got 25x stronger, faster, more durable? Not at all.
Click to expand...
We’ve already been over this. The amount of chakra that Naruto is capable of using at the time would be multiplied by 25, it has nothing to do with Naruto himself and is entirely dependent on Kurama. And you literally can’t definitively claim that Naruto didn’t.
KingTempest said:
Naruto while Yamato is suppressing Kurama's chakra during training = 4. Naruto without Yamato is 100.
You guys ended up sticking "suppressed by Yamato" with "base", then out of nowhere threw a multiplier on it because of random numbers. That's not how it works.
When Yamato does this, he has 25x less chakra. When he's done, it's back to normal. Not KN0, not V1 or V2, the suppression of Yamato.
Click to expand...
So 100/4 isn’t 25 now? Apparently those are just random numbers?
That’s not what Kakashi said though. And he said this before Yamato had even joined in on the training, so no, he did not mean Naruto during said training. He said Naruto with Kyuubi chakra suppressed has 4x as much chakra as him. Naruto without Kyuubi chakra suppressed has 100x as much. That is extremely blatantly saying that the influence of Kyuubi chakra makes a 25x difference, and to say it specifically meant while training with Yamato (even though Yamato wasn’t even there yet and only just arrived in the page after Kakashi made the statement) makes no sense.
 
Damage3245 said:
If Yagura was a Perfect Jinchuriki then it wouldn't make sense for Obito to place him under Genjutsu because his Tailed Beast could break him out of it.
Click to expand...
Or Obito just placed Isobu under genjutsu as well. Since y’know, he could do it to Kurama.
 
OneBleachHurricane said:
Wasn't Killer B the only one to be stated to be a Perfect Jinchuriki within the series?
Click to expand...
Yugito seemed pretty close to being a Perfect Jinchūriki if she wasn’t already one, since she could go Bijuu Mode without giving up control like Gaara. But she was never actually stated to be one.
OneBleachHurricane said:
Jinchuriki (Alive)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Base)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (Partial Transformation)
∆
Edo-Jin-Paths (V2 Transformation)


Bijuu (No Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Jinchuriki)
∆
Bijuu (With Perfect Jinchuriki)
=
Bijuu (Edo-Jinchuriki-Paths)

Is this the scaling that we're gonna use?
Click to expand...
Alive Jinchūriki < Bijuu (No Jinchūriki) < Alive Jinchūriki (Bijuu Mode) < Six Paths of Obito (Partial Transformation/V2) < Perfect Jinchūriki = Six Paths of Obito (Bijuu Mode)

I put Partial Transformation and V2 in the same spot since both could kinda fight with KCM iirc, but BM Rōshi and KCM Naruto had a prolonged struggle, with Naruto preventing him from closing his jaw and even forcing it open in the end, so idk.
 
Damage3245 said:
If Yagura was a Perfect Jinchuriki then it wouldn't make sense for Obito to place him under Genjutsu because his Tailed Beast could break him out of it.
Click to expand...
Obito could've just done something similar to what Sasuke did to Naruto at the BoS and suppressed his Bijuu as well.
When Sasuke failed to put Bee under Genjutsu, I feel it was mostly due to his ignorance about Gyūki's ability to break him out. With knowledge, a good enough Sharingan user should be able to put both the Jinchūriki and the Bijuu under Genjutsu.
 
Yagura was a perfect Jinchūriki, its literally stated during the 5 kage summit. Obitos genjutsu is so good that he controled him for 10 years like a puppet, it was Kotoamatsukami level. He also controlled the Nine Tails with a base sharingan. lol.
 
Metalija said:
Yagura was a perfect Jinchūriki, its literally stated during the 5 kage summit. Obitos genjutsu is so good that he controled him for 10 years like a puppet, it was Kotoamatsukami level. He also controlled the Nine Tails with a base sharingan. lol.
Click to expand...
It wasn't Kotoamatsukami level. Obito really wanted to have shisui's eyes. Why did he want them if he himself possessed such powerful genjutsu that comparable to it?
 
KingTempest said:
@Omimi Not at all.
He blocked with the chakra arms that destroyed the barrier, got destroyed. Blocked with truthseeking orb, was getting destroyed.
Eventually he just smacked the 2 Kuramas away with either chakra arm or himself before he got hit.

@UchihaSlayer96 I meant for Naruto

@M3X Gotcha, I say we make the Biju one last, since it's easier to scale the god tiers off of Moon level feat and Sage mode instead of struggling w/ Biju questioning.
Click to expand...
first chakra arms was physically tear apart by minato in kurama mode
senjutsu simply unaffected by powernull thats all
tobirama clearly state that senjutsu simply unaffected by powernull
senjutsu does not by pass juubi/juubi jin durability
if it was
BSM/EMS with CM could easily hurt jubito but that didnt happen
sasuke would've 1 shot rsm naruto but naruto tank his chidori with no damage
naruto would've 1 shot jj madara/kaguya vice versa

sm naruto feats is PIS/outlier
anyway it meaningless argue to since i agree they don't scale to jubito but i dont agree with the reason
 
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