Naruto Part II Revisions (Multipliers/Calculations)

[UchihaSlayer96]

That wouldnt make sense either....Hashirama necklace was suppose to stop Naruto from rampaging yet 6Tails crushed it without a second thought. Sealing technique requires strength in order to suppress something/someone

Even then, that would only scale to the Gate's AP, not Hashirama's wood or his physicals.

 

[BlackeJan]

@UchihaSlayer96 I made an edit above where my original post was

 

[LordTracer]

it being a large difference doesn't mean anything for their a charged up version of their ultimate attack. Especially if they get knocked out or put down by it. That's like saying the lava rocks that Roshi throws should scale to the bijuudamas
Can you inform me again of the reason Naruto is 6-C? Is it because he slapped 5 bijuudamas?

Yes, because he slapped away five unexploded Bijuudama, which would at least be equal to the Bijuu’s physicals, which can damage Gyūki, who withstood his own Bijuudama.

It being a large difference absolutely matters, because it means you can’t just randomly claim that the Bijuu are physically 7-A or whatever. The fact that they can harm Gyūki, despite him surviving his own Bijuudama, shows that there is not that big of a difference there. And like I said, even if you say the Bijuu are over 6x weaker (even though that’s illogical) and backscaled them to High 7-A+, that would still make KCM2 Naruto 6-C for slapping five away simultaneously, which would then make Madara 6-C for yeeting KCM2 Naruto.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Also just because its not his Mokuto doesn't mean it cant be that high....this is Hashirama we are talking about, but lets do it like this....could Yamato (Mokuto/Sealing Technique) suppress Kurama?

My point still stands Blacke. Just because Hashirama can SUMMON the gates and can use stronger sealing Jutsu, doesn't mean his wood necessarily scales.
It would just be a separate AP rating on his profile if nothing else.

For example: "X in base, Y with Mokuton, Z with Deity Gates" or something like that.

 

[KingTempest]

@Damage we trailed into scaling KCM2 Naruto and Madara

Me and Tracer had a debate scaling the non exploding bijuudamas to the exploding bijuudamas to scale Naruto's striking strength for deflecting them

We're also discussing Killer B surviving his bijuudama as a durability feat

 

[LordTracer]

It’s not even saying the non-exploded Bijuudama are equal to the exploded ones. It’s that there is not enough of a difference for them to be beneath 6-C.

 

[Damage3245]

> who withstood his own Bijuudama

8-Tails was badly hurt by a relatively small Bijudama. That's not a very strong feat IMO.

Especially since it doesn't directly scale to the 6-C calcs to be honest.

And the only Tailed Beast that physically damaged 8-Tails IIRC was the 5-Tails who stabbed him with its sharp horns.

 

[KingTempest]

Yes, because he slapped away five unexploded Bijuudama, which would at least be equal to the Bijuu’s physicals, which can damage Gyūki, who withstood his own Bijuudama.

Slapping away 5 things in different places = Slapping 1 big thing w/ the combined force of all of them.
We've already discussed them scaling to the physicals of the bijuu, which you brought up Kurama and the wood dragon scaling, which I explained he couldn't do because of him being drained.
There is no basis on the non exploded bijuudamas being = to their physicals, as we saw a weaker Juubi slap away Kurama and Gyuki, but a stronger Juubi's bijuudama's were held back by Gyuki's body. If anything, it's weaker from that, and nothing says otherwise.

It being a large difference absolutely matters, because it means you can’t just randomly claim that the Bijuu are physically 7-A or whatever. The fact that they can harm Gyūki, despite him surviving his own Bijuudama, shows that there is not that big of a difference there. And like I said, even if you say the Bijuu are over 6x weaker (even though that’s illogical) and backscaled them to High 7-A+, that would still make KCM2 Naruto 6-C for slapping five away simultaneously, which would then make Madara 6-C for yeeting KCM2 Naruto.

And we had a page+ of him being harmed by the bijuudama.
He gets harmed by the bijuudama and bleeds and can't fight. He doesn't even get hurt by their physical moves, he gets up and punches them right back except like that 1 time when they rammed horns into his body, but it wasn't equal or similar to the force of the bijuudama. Feeling the force ≠ getting hurt. Does A scale to Madara now because Madara was knocked back by his punches? They didn't hurt him nearly on the level of the bijuudama did, so no, they don't scale.

And w/ that logic, if Naruto scales to all 5 of them, why didn't he slap away the big one which was just all of the previous together?
Because slapping 5 things in 5 different places doesn't mean the same thing. If you punch somebody with 2x the force in 1 place vs punching it with regular force in 2 different places, it's not the same thing. Kakashi wasn't taking both Naruto and Sasuke's force when they were fighting on the hospital, he took 1 force on different sides. Not the same.
Naruto doesn't scale to 5, he scales to 1 non exploded in 5 different places.

 

[KingTempest]

> who withstood his own Bijuudama

8-Tails was badly hurt by a relatively small Bijudama. That's not a very strong feat IMO.

Exactly it was small as shit and it put him down for 4 weeks of manga. It's not even like the 6-C bijuudamas that were relatively bigger than their heads, it was a small one the size of his nose that took him out of the fight.

 

[KingTempest]

Tracer For my first sentence, replace = with ≠

 

[LordTracer]

Slapping away 5 things in different places = Slapping 1 big thing w/ the combined force of all of them.

This is literally not what I’m trying to say, as I have told you before.

We've already discussed them scaling to the physicals of the bijuu, which you brought up Kurama and the wood dragon scaling, which I explained he couldn't do because of him being drained.
There is no basis on the non exploded bijuudamas being = to their physicals, as we saw a weaker Juubi slap away Kurama and Gyuki, but a stronger Juubi's bijuudama's were held back by Gyuki's body. If anything, it's weaker from that, and nothing says otherwise.

Gyūki scaling to the Juubi is an outlier, stop trying to use that. Kurama stated at one point that they stand NO CHANCE against it without him, and even then Kurama was getting bullied by it.

And we had a page+ of him being harmed by the bijuudama.
He gets harmed by the bijuudama and bleeds and can't fight. He doesn't even get hurt by their physical moves, he gets up and punches them right back except like that 1 time when they rammed horns into his body, but it wasn't equal or similar to the force of the bijuudama. Feeling the force ≠ getting hurt. Does A scale to Madara now because Madara was knocked back by his punches? They didn't hurt him nearly on the level of the bijuudama did, so no, they don't scale.

The Five-Tails stabbing him is more than enough for it to scale. And I’m going to tell you how AP works AGAIN since you don’t seem to get it.

Gyūki (while already low on chakra, I remind you) survived the Bijuudama with little more than scratches and bleeding. The Five-Tails drew blood from Gyūki, Son Gokū picked Gyūki up and slammed him into the ground. They harmed Gyūki, they scale to his durability. Therefore, their AP is comparable to his durability. And once again, even if you say Gyūki’s durability backscales from the Bijuudama and the Bijuu backscale to High 7-A+, Naruto slapping away five Bijuudama is. Still. 6-C.

And w/ that logic, if Naruto scales to all 5 of them, why didn't he slap away the big one which was just all of the previous together?

HE DOESN’T. I TOLD YOU THIS ALREADY. I have already said he does not scale above five Bijuudama combined, he slapped away five at the same time. He would, at the least, scale significantly above one.

 

[LordTracer]

8-Tails was badly hurt by a relatively small Bijudama. That's not a very strong feat IMO.

While he was extremely low on chakra, and he was only left with scratches and bleeding. That isn’t “badly hurt.”

Especially since it doesn't directly scale to the 6-C calcs to be honest.

Are you about to argue Gyūki doesn’t scale to the other Bijuu now?

And the only Tailed Beast that physically damaged 8-Tails IIRC was the 5-Tails who stabbed him with its sharp horns.

And? “muh piercing damage” is not a good reason to ignore a feat. Especially when, as I’ve said, the Bijuudama are 6.07x greater than baseline. Just because something has a point on it doesn’t mean it can overcome such a difference.

 

[BlackeJan]

My point still stands Blacke. Just because Hashirama can SUMMON the gates and can use stronger sealing Jutsu, doesn't mean his wood necessarily scales.
It would just be a separate AP rating on his profile if nothing else.

For example: "X in base, Y with Mokuton, Z with Deity Gates" or something like that.

Thats still his power though. Hashirama has as much chakra as BM Naruto does in base (literally cant say amount of chakra doesn't mean how strong when the Boruto manga gave a direct view that a power is powerful by how much chakra they have)

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Something being pointy doesn't mean it can overcome any AP difference.
You all can't be seriously thinking that any random Ninja with a Kunai or any Raiton user can stab and cut through Bijuu now, are you? Cutting damage or not, the AP still HAS to be close in order to close the gap.
Even irl, a knife, no matter how sharp, can't just stab or cut through any material.

 

[Padaruyos]

Slapping away 5 things in different places = Slapping 1 big thing w/ the combined force of all of them.

Didn't Naruto deflect all of them at the same time with a single slap? Those Bijuudamas are also aimed at a single target, which means that when they are deflected they are within very close proximity to each other. If that's the case isn't that practically the same thing as a giant one?

If say someone fires a shotgun at point blank distance, once with buckshot (with very close grouping) and once with slug (assuming they have the same muzzle Energy) and they're both deflected by some sort of armor, doesn't that mean that the armor's durability scale to both of them?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Thats still his power though. Hashirama has as much chakra as BM Naruto does in base (literally cant say amount of chakra doesn't mean how strong when the Boruto manga gave a direct view that a power is powerful by how much chakra they have)

Again, that doesn't matter because it's just something he summons. It's not a jutsu that he creates or maintains through his own chakra. We don't scale people to their summons now do we?

 

[Padaruyos]

We don't scale people to their summons now do we?

Shido Itsuka

 

[KingTempest]

Gyūki scaling to the Juubi is an outlier, stop trying to use that. Kurama stated at one point that they stand NO CHANCE against it without him, and even then Kurama was getting bullied by it.

Kurama says they stand no chance to the full Bijuu (Moon+ level) and it's worth a try to fight the current one (small country to continental) since it's missing a shit ton of it's original power (the 2 strongest bijuu). Obito then confirms that he doesn't need it at full capacity.
How is it an outlier if there's many feats for people scaling to the bijuu?
Gyuki and Kurama get hit by the Juubi and they get back on their feet immediately. They don't even hit the floor.
Naruto gets blasted by the bijuu and his tails are destroyed but he still survives with a smile on his face.
Gyuki pushes the Juubi's premature bijuudama back in it's mouth pre explosion, then when it survives the explosion with its horn destroyed and its tooth missing, but, from everyone's words on survival = dura, he survived.
Then when the civilians get nine tails chakra, they can blow away the hands that blitzed the offguard bijuu prior, not showing AP, just consistency.
The big guys that rumbled the Gedo Mazo earlier get a boost and now can hold and intercept it's arms.
Then a shit ton of them w/ nine tails chakra hold the juubi w/ shadows.
Then Naruto's rasenshurikens with emotional support and molecular damage slice through the arms of what blitzed it's bigger mode.
Then the earth style they make keeps the bijuudama at bay for a long ass period of time for Bee to grab the bijuudama pre explosion and keep it at bay again.
Then the God tiers put a square around it and the super god tier (Hashirama) bullies it with a seal.

Outliers are pieces of data that stay away from the main group of data.
This is the main group of data. I don't see not one antifeat that holds up to 12 feats of consistently scaling to a glass canon that they held down in ninjutsu concrete.
It's not an outlier, it's a lazy form of scaling from people who think "I applied force, I scale to you" no. People just throw outlier on what they can't explain. That's lazy ass scaling.

This the same shit that happened with all of Momoshiki's antifeats just because "it didn't make sense".

The Five-Tails stabbing him is more than enough for it to scale. And I’m going to tell you how AP works AGAIN since you don’t seem to get it.

Enlighten me.

Gyūki (while already low on chakra, I remind you) survived the Bijuudama with little more than scratches and bleeding. The Five-Tails drew blood from Gyūki, Son Gokū picked Gyūki up and slammed him into the ground. They harmed Gyūki, they scale to his durability. Therefore, their AP is comparable to his durability. And once again, even if you say Gyūki’s durability backscales from the Bijuudama and the Bijuu backscale to High 7-A+, Naruto slapping away five Bijuudama is. Still. 6-C.

He wasn't low on chakra prior to jumping in with a bijuudama, or else he wouldn't have done it in the first place. He was low on chakra from protecting himself (which chakra does) from something that almost one shot him, then the damage took a shit ton of his stamina (and stamina is a component of chakra).
The Bijuudama was smaller than the ones scaled to 6-C so that matters too.
Blew him into the ground where he stayed out for 4 chapters.

Drawing blood ≠ scaling to something that did worse. Doesn't Naruto have moon striking strength for keeping up with Kaguya? He ain't make her bleed right? But he kept up w/ her and he applied significant force.
This is why I referred to DC earlier. Making something bleed doesn't equal applying similar force to something else that did too. Association fallacy to you.
Shit, I guess all version 2 states scale now to the bijuu since they did "significant damage" right? Or breaking out of the 8 tails' seal? This is LAZY SCALING.

He slapped away five at the same time. He would, at the least, scale significantly above one.

Because he hit multiple means he significantly scales above one????? Putting him in A WHOLE TIER ABOVE?
Where did you get that from?
What's your backing on that?
I could slap 5 kids in the span of a second, those same kids could still individually bully me.

 

[LordTracer]

Kurama says they stand no chance to the full Bijuu (Moon+ level) and it's worth a try to fight the current one (small country to continental) since it's missing a shit ton of it's original power (the 2 strongest bijuu). Obito then confirms that he doesn't need it at full capacity.

Kurama also says that they need HIM to fight the Juubi, AFTER it was revived.

How is it an outlier if there's many feats for people scaling to the bijuu?

So should 50% Kurama and Gyūki be 6-B/High 6-A now? Is that what you want? Even though we have their most powerful Bijuudama calced and it was only Low 6-B?

He wasn't low on chakra prior to jumping in with a bijuudama, or else he wouldn't have done it in the first place. He was low on chakra from protecting himself (which chakra does) from something that almost one shot him, then the damage took a shit ton of his stamina (and stamina is a component of chakra).
The Bijuudama was smaller than the ones scaled to 6-C so that matters too.
Blew him into the ground where he stayed out for 4 chapters.

Drawing blood ≠ scaling to something that did worse. Doesn't Naruto have moon striking strength for keeping up with Kaguya? He ain't make her bleed right? But he kept up w/ her and he applied significant force.
This is why I referred to DC earlier. Making something bleed doesn't equal applying similar force to something else that did too. Association fallacy to you.

If you can draw blood from someone, you would’ve had to harm them/overcome their durability to do so. This is not difficult to understand.

Shit, I guess all version 2 states scale now to the bijuu since they did "significant damage" right? Or breaking out of the 8 tails' seal? This is LAZY SCALING.

You are straight up being dishonest (again), Gyūki isn’t taking significant damage from them at all. You see his hand after getting hit with the Alkaline fluid, and it’s slightly scuffed up. And in the second scan you gave, it is literally the Five-Tails doing that. Congratulations, you just supported my point. And since when is breaking out of a seal AP? It’s more like you being dishonest and trying to to use anything, even things that didn’t happen/aren’t AP, to go against the feats that we clearly see.

Because he hit multiple means he significantly scales above one????? Putting him in A WHOLE TIER ABOVE?
Where did you get that from?
What's your backing on that?

So you’re showing clearly that you don’t understand how AP is cataloged on the site. When a tier ends in a +, and you significantly scale above that, you are allowed to upscale to the next tier. So I reiterate. Even if you say that the Bijuu just backscale to High 7-A+, Naruto slapping five away at the same time is more than enough for him to upscale to 6-C.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Because he hit multiple means he significantly scales above one????? Putting him in A WHOLE TIER ABOVE?
Where did you get that from?
What's your backing on that?
I could slap 5 kids in the span of a second, those same kids could

He'd still be 6-C, so not a whole tier above. Just a bit higher than a single TBB, which is 26 Gigatons.

Kurama's High 6-C is from matching the 5 combined TBB, so it's a separate feat.

 

[BlackeJan]

Again, that doesn't matter because it's just something he summons. It's not a jutsu that he creates or maintains through his own chakra. We don't scale people to their summons now do we?

iirc its not a summoning but a sealing technique....

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

iirc its not a summoning but a sealing technique....

Yeah, one that he summons above the intended target, kinda like the Rashoumon gates. He doesn't create the gates, at least as far as I know. If he does in fact create them, then provide proof of that and I'll concede this point.

 

[Kin201]

@Kin201 there is a severe and crucial difference between durability and endurance.
Madara survived getting cut in half by Sasuke, is that durability too?
Tsunade got impaled stomach to back by a Susanoo blade, is that durability too?
Naruto survived getting stabbed by Sasuke through his lung, is that durability too?
Kisame survived a lariat with his chest blown out, is that durability too?

It's like if someone has a dura of 50 and they get hit by an attack with 300 (bijuudama) and survives because they can resist a lot of damage, and anyone who hits them with 51 (a slap) should scale too by this logic. It's like saying Rock Lee scales to Orochimaru cause he hurt Sasuke who survived Orochimaru's bite (i know that's extreme, but my point still stands).

>
Madara survived getting cut in half by Sasuke, is that durability too?
Tsunade got impaled stomach to back by a Susanoo blade, is that durability too?
Naruto survived getting stabbed by Sasuke through his lung, is that durability too?
No, they are not durability feat, they were attacked by slashing/piercing attacks enhanced with Raiton is one thing and their body wasn't able to withstood it (i.e those attacks easily piercing/cutting their body). I mean A4 tanked Sasuke's Chidori is an example of a durability feat, because that Chidori could barely pierce through his skin. So his durability significantly scales above Sasuke's Chidori.
>Kisame survived a lariat with his chest blown out, is that durability too? I'm pretty sure it is.. to some extent.

Gyuki survived the explosion of his own BijuuBomb is a durability feat (We also treat surviving explosions as durability feats here from what I can see. Especially if they are at the epicenter of the explosion, so Gyuky either fully scales to the explosion or at least scales to most of it. Because if he wasn't durable enough he would get incinerated I belive. Anyways, we treat surviving explosions as durability feats here. The problem is that Gyuki was in the epicenter of the explosion, thus he scales, he didn't take a small portion of the blast. So we cannot discard that feat.

 

[Padaruyos]

Because he hit multiple means he significantly scales above one????? Putting him in A WHOLE TIER ABOVE?

It's High 7-A+, you only need to be at most twice as strong as that to become 6-C.

 

[KingTempest]

Kurama also says that they need HIM to fight the Juubi, AFTER it was revived.

Right where exactly? He looks pretty optimistic to me. "Save it for after we've won." He's deadass planning on how they're gonna deal with him. They're cracking jokes. I don't know where you saw that.

So should 50% Kurama and Gyūki be 6-B/High 6-A now? Is that what you want? Even though we have their most powerful Bijuudama calced and it was only Low 6-B?

I see how the first thing you took from my rant was "upgrade?" No. I'm saying be careful on how you scale, because not every bruise or hold means relativity.

If you can draw blood from someone, you would’ve had to harm them/overcome their durability to do so. This is not difficult to understand.

The argument half the people here tried to make with that point was that the 5 tails' horns scaled over his durability right.
So it's horns scale over its durability, which by half the people here, scale to (if not above) the bijuudama? The second strongest beasts' dura scales above his bijuudama based on that right?
5 tails' horns > 8 tails durability > 8 tails bijuudama?
Didn't Bee punch the shit out of him and draw blood?
Bee's fist > 5 tails dura > 5 tails horns (via Newton's law) > 8 tails dura > 8 tails Bijuudama
But the bijuudama is the ultimate jinchuriki jutsu right?
Bee's bijuudama > Bee's fist > Han's Dura > Han's Horns > Bee's Dura > Bee's Bijuudama
I've heard it all.
Plus no one considered my argument that it was a small bijuudama right?
Honestly, it's either an outlier or Bee was offguard, which makes sense since he was preoccupied by the V2 demons.

You are straight up being dishonest (again), Gyūki isn’t taking significant damage from them at all.

He says they need to retreat and regroup before he got hit by the bijuu mode horn handling goof. He's scared of them in V2 form.

You see his hand after getting hit with the Alkaline fluid, and it’s slightly scuffed up.

Gyuki says his hand is melting. Gyuki, who knows his body more than anyone else, says the hand is melting, after Bee screams OW. Colored version. Bijuu mode Naruto got his hand melted off by the same person.
You did that with Mei melting Madara's Susanoo.
Didn't you do the same exact thing with the Uchiha Flame Formation?

And in the second scan you gave, it is literally the Five-Tails doing that. Congratulations, you just supported my point.

Check scaling chart above.
Obito confirms cause its cause of their numbers that they're doing all of this damage.
When Bee was on guard he sent him to a forest.

I like how nobody even took the possibility that it was an outlier, but 80 antifeats are outliers. I don't understand.
Reanimations are weaker than they were when alive. Bijuu Mode Alive Yugito got violated by Hidan and Kakuzu, same Hidan that got pierced by Shikamaru.
You wanna tell me town level Shikamaru can pierce some bijuu?

And since when is breaking out of a seal AP? It’s more like you being dishonest and trying to to use anything, even things that didn’t happen/aren’t AP, to go against the feats that we clearly see.

Didn't you try to use the wood dragon holding Naruto to scale a non exploding bijuudama?
Hashirama's seal has AP, if you counter that, you're countering the energy pushing down.
Why wouldn't it be like this for the ink seal? What's the justification for that not being AP? And breaking out of it = AP.
You didn't know how to quantify Mei melting so you threw AP on there, but me throwing AP on something meant to bind someone is an issue.

So you’re showing clearly that you don’t understand how AP is cataloged on the site. When a tier ends in a +, and you significantly scale above that, you are allowed to upscale to the next tier. So I reiterate. Even if you say that the Bijuu just backscale to High 7-A+, Naruto slapping five away at the same time is more than enough for him to upscale to 6-C.

You clearly didn't understand my argument. I guess that 6-C tier up point was dumb, but let me explain what I meant.
I asked why should that give him significantly higher AP?
If 2 people punch someone and they survive it, it doesn't mean that they can significantly scale above

If anything, we don't even know he did it at the same time. From what I saw, he just dashed there and hit them all while he was coming, hence his pathway past the bijuudamas.

You haven't quantified the AP for the unexploded bijuudama. Your first one was that it was equal to the explosion which we agreed is not the case, then you said "It shouldn't be that far down" with no basis and everyone agreed because of powerscaling bs logic.

Me: How strong is the non exploding bijuudamas
You: Not that much lower than exploding, should be similar to physicals
Me: On what basis
You: Some logic
A missile can be 2% as dangerous as the explosion. So it being "not that much lower than physicals" has absolutely no basis.

 

[KingTempest]

No, they are not durability feat, they were attacked by slashing/piercing attacks enhanced with Raiton is one thing and their body wasn't able to withstood it (i.e those attacks easily piercing/cutting their body). I mean A4 tanked Sasuke's Chidori is an example of a durability feat, because that Chidori could barely pierce through his skin. So his durability significantly scales above Sasuke's Chidori.

What you mean tank?
And the only attack other than the lifting strength 4 tails that got through was a piercing attack, so it doesn't scale.

>Kisame survived a lariat with his chest blown out, is that durability too? I'm pretty sure it is.. to some extent.

...

Gyuki survived the explosion of his own BijuuBomb is a durability feat (We also treat surviving explosions as durability feats here from what I can see. Especially if they are at the epicenter of the explosion, so Gyuky either fully scales to the explosion or at least scales to most of it. Because if he wasn't durable enough he would get incinerated I belive. Anyways, we treat surviving explosions as durability feats here. The problem is that Gyuki was in the epicenter of the explosion, thus he scales, he didn't take a small portion of the blast. So we cannot discard that feat.

Nobody even wanted to take in the fact that it was a relatively SMALL ASS BIJUUDAMA. What were the others again, barely above baseline 6-C? That small one should've definitely been much lower, maybe 7-A+ or 7-A.

 

[BlackeJan]

There was a thread that if someone has a “+” on their tier and their opponent is WAY stronger then the former then they can be there next tier (baseline)

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

What were the others again, barely above baseline 6-C? That small one should've definitely been much lower, maybe 7-A+ or 7-A.

26 Gigatons, 6 times above Baseline 6-C

 

[KingTempest]

@OneBleachHurricane we'd need a calc for the one bee blew himself up with

@BlackeJan I noted that the bijuudama bee hurt himself with was smaller than his head, while the ones w/ the 6-C to 6-B calcs were big as hell, so either someone calc the new one to find out dura and stop assuming that all bijuudamas have same or similar potency, or throw away the feat.
Smaller than mouth
Similar to head

 

[M3X_2.0]

This + we agreed to not scale Bijūs pre War to their feats during the War. Third Raikage damaged Gyuki, but he isn't the same when he has Bee as his Jinchuriki.

 

[KingTempest]

I'll sum my argument up here.

1. I need calced, proven, or powerscaling based Attack Potency for the non exploded bijuudama that Naruto reflected. Speculation and "should be" is a no.
   1. This will prove Naruto's striking and Madara's/the Gunbai's durability.
2. I need justification why hitting multiple things means you significantly scale above 1, as Naruto hurt multiple bijuu at once but those same bijuu can hurt him back, showing relativity and possible maintaining 7-A+.
   1. Chomei intercepting Kurama's jump and temporarily wrestles w/ Kurama
   2. Saiken melts part of Kurama's arm
3. I need calced, proven, or powerscaling based Attack Potency for the exploded bijuudama that Killer B survived. It was shown to be smaller, and sizes on bijuudamas have astronomical differences.
   1. This will prove B's dura and the other Bijuu's striking strength.
   2. ALSO justification on why this isn't an outlier, like all my other arguments that I brought up.

Using a Juubi feat or any feat that relates to the Juubi will be dodged, shut down, and ignored with the quickness.
When I mentioned AND showed consistency w/ the Juubi, everyone came out of hiding to say it's an outlier.
When I brought up 12 consistent Juubi scaling feats, everyone who commented was long gone.
So all Juubi feats to justify above are not advised.

If anyone still wants to argue over anything else, it has no relevance to the argument.
This is scaling KCM2 Naruto's striking, no Susanoo Madara's striking & dura, the bijuu's striking strength, AP and dura, and those who scale off them.

 

[Kin201]

@BlackeJan I noted that the bijuudama bee hurt himself with was smaller than his head, while the ones w/ the 6-C to 6-B calcs were big as hell, so either someone calc the new one to find out dura and stop assuming that all bijuudamas have same or similar potency, or throw away the feat.
Smaller than mouth
Similar to head

Nobody even wanted to take in the fact that it was a relatively SMALL ASS BIJUUDAMA. What were the others again, barely above baseline 6-C? That small one should've definitely been much lower, maybe 7-A+ or 7-A.

Sure. That bijuudama looked like it was smaller than the others. I just said his dura scales to that bijuubomb, not others. We're assuming that it was as strong as those 6-C Bijuubomb. Unless it was just inconsistent, then it was actually as strong as them. I dk.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

1. Chomei intercepting Kurama's jump and temporarily wrestles w/ Kurama
2. Saiken melts part of Kurama's arm

1. How sure are you those effects are struggling or wrestling effects rather than shaking effects from Chomei colliding with Kurama? Kurama slammed into Chomei then he brought Chomei down where Isobu was lying down within a few or so seconds.

2. How sure are you that Saiken melted part of Kurama's arm? One could argue that the substance on Kurama's arm is just the slime that Saiken drools similar to the one it used on SM Madara. Even the sound effect "ZWOP" makes it seem more like slime than acid.

 

[Padaruyos]

I need justification why hitting multiple things means you significantly scale above 1, as Naruto hurt multiple bijuu at once but those same bijuu can hurt him back, showing relativity and possible maintaining 7-A+.

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that the Bijuus are only 7-A+?

 

[KingTempest]

@Kin201 The Bijuudama was smaller, known by the masses to be smaller, and was scaled to significantly larger ones because of no reasoning, then put on the profile as perfectly fine justification? That's an issue.
I sent antifeats below in @OneBleachHurricane 's counter.

@OneBleachHurricane
1. That was just my interpretation. I noticed that they landed headfirst, meaning Kurama would have to flip him in a 180º angle. We see the colored version and we see the effects were left and right, signifying rocking left and right, while it should've just been downwards instead of a struggle. Plus, Chomei got right back up and "survived it", and from this thread I learned that survival = dura, he scales.

2. Colored manga is a god. If I could find the full manga it would be much easier. I got my bijuu feats from here. We see the steam coming off, showing that it's not slime.

Just stating this (this is for Kin201) (since I have a few colored scans, I'm abusing them), Killer B was harmed by Version 2 Roshi and Version 2 Utakata. I severly doubt that they scale to B's bijuudama in version 2.

@Padaruyos I meant that Naruto's striking strength would be relative to the bijuudamas that Naruto reflected, which would end up 7-A+ or 7-A by the logic that the non exploded are massively under the exploded ones. I used Naruto hurting multiple bijuu who hurt him as relativity, then correlated that to the non exploded bijuudamas, I take fault in not elaborating.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

1. That was just my interpretation. I noticed that they landed headfirst, meaning Kurama would have to flip him in a 180º angle. We see the colored version and we see the effects were left and right, signifying rocking left and right, while it should've just been downwards instead of a struggle. Plus, Chomei got right back up and "survived it", and from this thread I learned that survival = dura, he scales.
2. Colored manga is a god. If I could find the full manga it would be much easier. I got my bijuu feats from here. We see the steam coming off, showing that it's not slime.

1. Does it really count though? Kurama just jumped onto Chomei causing the both of them to crash. All Kurama had to do was disrupt Chomei flying and let gravity do its thing.

2. I see, but it still doesn't seem that Kurama's hand was melted it just seems like the acid is just evaporating. Kurama's hand is slightly clenched into a fist when it slipped out of Saiken's mouth

 

[KingTempest]

1. Does it really count though? Kurama just jumped onto Chomei causing the both of them to crash. All Kurama had to do was disrupt Chomei flying and let gravity do its thing.

Good point, but the motion lines say a lot about it. Those are a type of line called segmented lines here, it says

Segmented Lines​

Lines that are extremely segmented signify an interval between movements, like trembling or twitching.

If there was an interval between movements, that means it's not straight gravity pulling them down, and there was a tussle there. And Chomei survived it, with the databook only referring to the Chomei with strong durability cause of its "tough exoskeleton like armor". The first and only time we see a dura feat from her is with this, so I'm assuming her dura scales.

2. I see, but it still doesn't seem that Kurama's hand was melted it just seems like the acid is just evaporating. Kurama's hand is slightly clenched into a fist when it slipped out of Saiken's mouth

Saiken did tank getting slammed into Matatabi. Another one.
Databook confirms that it melts whatever touches its liquid, another one here too. That's clearly a NLF, but Kishimoto wouldn't just say this portion and not include the 2 feats in it.
And it says that the liquid is always on its body, which means it should just always evaporate. It only evaporates in that instance and when Bee holds it, so I'm assuming it's only on contact and post melt.
And we see Saiken being able to hold Kurama's hand in it's mouth long enough for Isobu to roll over and attack, for consistency.
So even if we have different views on the acid, he has physical feats too.

 

[OneBleachHurricane]

Good point, but the motion lines say a lot about it. Those are a type of line called segmented lines here, it says

Segmented Lines​

Lines that are extremely segmented signify an interval between movements, like trembling or twitching.

If there was an interval between movements, that means it's not straight gravity pulling them down, and there was a tussle there. And Chomei survived it, with the databook only referring to the Chomei with strong durability cause of its "tough exoskeleton like armor". The first and only time we see a dura feat from her is with this, so I'm assuming her dura scales.

Saiken did tank getting slammed into Matatabi. Another one.
Databook confirms that it melts whatever touches its liquid, another one here too. That's clearly a NLF, but Kishimoto wouldn't just say this portion and not include the 2 feats in it.
And it says that the liquid is always on its body, which means it should just always evaporate. It only evaporates in that instance and when Bee holds it, so I'm assuming it's only on contact and post melt.
And we see Saiken being able to hold Kurama's hand in it's mouth long enough for Isobu to roll over and attack, for consistency.
So even if we have different views on the acid, he has physical feats too.

Yeah, it's a Dura Feat for Chomei but the Durability would scale from the crash with factors such as the combined weight of Kurama and Chomei, their momentum falling, and gravity.

"So even if we have different views on the acid, he has physical feats too."

Yeah, I'm wasn't saying that Saiken doesn't have physical feats, I was just saying that Saiken's Acid doesn't seem to have an effect on Kurama.

But maybe that's more on Kurama being an energy construct in that fight compared to Gyuki who's got skin and flesh in his Bijuu form.

 

[KingTempest]

I noticed this on the Bijuu's page.


Striking Strength: Island Class (Being made of pure chakra, he/she should be able to physically produce the same energy as his/her Bijuudama),


This should be removed immediately.

1. Assuming hitting someone w/ chakra = hitting someone with a reaction. Explosions are chemical (combustion) reactions. If anything, they should scale to their non exploded bijuudamas, which is actually pure and raw chakra and not a chain reaction afterwards, which I feel like I've proven to be <<<<<<<<<<<<<< exploded bijuudamas.
   1. Non exploded bijuudama was caught by wood golem but exploded destroyed the golem.
   2. Killer B would've died from multi continental explosion from bijuudama but he could hold the non exploded bijuudama of the juubi.
2. Assuming that the amount of chakra they attack with = the amount in the bijuudama.
   1. They don't lose chakra after every punch.
   2. The bijuudama was stated to be their ultimate technique. Why would a punch be equal to that?
3. That raw chakra bs was retconned.
   1. We see Gyuki and Kukuo bleed. Chakra doesn't bleed.
   2. If they were straight chakra, them using ninjutsu would make them get smaller.
   3. Gyuki and Kurama "run out of chakra" and they're still there. Kurama gives Naruto his remaining chakra against Sasuke and falls asleep.
   4. We see Gyuki get cut. He doesn't leak chakra, it's just an octopus.
   5. Their biologies are clearly different, but they're clearly not made out of chakra.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah, it's a Dura Feat for Chomei but the Durability would scale from the crash with factors such as the combined weight of Kurama and Chomei, their momentum falling, and gravity.

"So even if we have different views on the acid, he has physical feats too."

Yeah, I'm wasn't saying that Saiken doesn't have physical feats, I was just saying that Saiken's Acid doesn't seem to have an effect on Kurama.

But maybe that's more on Kurama being an energy construct in that fight compared to Gyuki who's got skin and flesh in his Bijuu form.

Gotcha, and I agree with the last part. It's hard seeing effects on chakra.