- 11,972
- 11,581
- Thread starter
- #161
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Naruto Major Overhaul Part 2: Battle Tendency
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
- Start date
- Status
- 14,956
- 1,831
Let me go over the scaling for a bit.
- 31,400
- 27,692
I'm also more in favor of the High 7-A scaling for those characters than the 6-C scaling.
I don't think that KCM2 Naruto hitting his miniature Biju Bomb against Madara's fan counts as Madara tanking a 6-C physical attack, nor do I think we have enough evidence that the reflected explosion is 6-C.
This also runs into the issues of Kurama-enhanced Rock Lee bisecting Madara with a kick when you seemingly have "Madara tanking a hit from KCM2 Naruto". It's a bigger assumption to me that Naruto's chakra cloaks that he hands out to everyone makes each of them stronger than himself in KCM2 form.
I don't think that KCM2 Naruto hitting his miniature Biju Bomb against Madara's fan counts as Madara tanking a 6-C physical attack, nor do I think we have enough evidence that the reflected explosion is 6-C.
This also runs into the issues of Kurama-enhanced Rock Lee bisecting Madara with a kick when you seemingly have "Madara tanking a hit from KCM2 Naruto". It's a bigger assumption to me that Naruto's chakra cloaks that he hands out to everyone makes each of them stronger than himself in KCM2 form.
- 11,972
- 11,581
- Thread starter
- #164
Well, Kakashi stated that the Kurama chakra gave him 3x boost for his Kamui, and Lee was using 5th Gate when he attacked Madara. It has some multipliers stacked in there, so that's that. They should scale to High 7-A from Naruto's Odama RS. Is anything left to discuss here? I'll post the Part 3 thread about justifications, scans etc.
- 21,469
- 30,790
- 14,956
- 1,831
The gunbai convert the jutsu into chakra and then releases it as a wind blast, there is no reason it wont have the same power as the absorbed jutsu.
- 15,989
- 11,285
What evidence is there that the Mini Bijuu Dama is the same strength as a Normal one?
- 14,956
- 1,831
I think it was meant to scale to his physicals but we arent going with the 6-C scaling anyway.
- 21,469
- 30,790
Feels weird scaling KCM2 Naruto's physicals to Bijuu when his full on Tailed Beast Mode couldn't knock em down
- 14,956
- 1,831
Are we going to go on this round about with the bijuu dama yet again?
- 21,469
- 30,790
Nope, just feels weird to me. Not screaming "change it", just seems iffy, but no clear important issues from me
- 5,454
- 1,847
It's explained above.
- 15,442
- 15,410
As I said before, all of this is still fine and it's clearly well justified, I don't really have an opinion on the 6-C stuff tho
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,389
- 9,050
How come nobody tagged this?
- 14,956
- 1,831
I believe so, we are now on part 3 which is finishing up.
- 11,753
- 16,166
Don't close it yet. I have one minor thing I'd like to comment on. Sorry, I was busy so I couldn't get to it earlier, but I just need a little bit more to put it together.
- 11,972
- 11,581
- Thread starter
- #185
Oh, fine. @Antvasima I'll let you know when you can close this thread.
- 11,753
- 16,166
Okay, so I will try to make a case for why KCM2 Naruto should indeed be 6-C in this post. I'll just try to address the concerns that have been voiced in this thread regarding the matter. If you guys don't agree, I'll just drop it because I don't want this to turn into a big mess like usual. (That doesn't mean I'll concede to terrible arguments, though)
I'd also like to point out what I WON'T be doing in this post:
- Kakashi and Guy were cornered by multiple Bijuu attacking them simultaneously, not just one, so even IF they did scale to 6-C, this wouldn't cause any issues because them scaling to one Bijuu would not contradict them being cornered by the combined might of 5+ Bijuu attacking them at once. With that being said, I don't actually think they scale to KCM2 Naruto and here is why:
* Guy is a non-factor in this argument since he doesn't have any feats that put him on par with KCM2 or Obito directly, so I'll just ignore him.
* Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito AT ALL, at least normally. He was overpowered by a casual Obito and almost defeated. The only time he actually managed to do anything against Obito, was when he punched him from within the Kamui dimension. This doesn't count towards his normal physical capabilities because he had received chakra directly from Kurama before being teleported by Obito, and also Obito was obviously caught off guard. That shouldn't lower his natural durability, I know, but I think it's still worth mentioning. So, Kakashi probably needs a Kyubi Enhanced key to reflect this feat, and other feats in this state.
But what about their 1-on-1 fight where they traded blows and Kakashi pierced him with a Raikiri? That fight absolutely shouldn't count IMO, because Obito was clearly not trying to kill Kakashi. His goal was to get stabbed by Kakashi in order to get rid off Madara's seal on his heart, so it's quite clear that he threw that fight. I don't personally view it as valid for scaling because Obito lost on purpose, and everything Kakashi did was a part of Obito's plan.
* Obito also doesn't really scale to KCM2 Naruto, in terms of AP. He only scales in durability for tanking a Rasengan to the face and a headbutt from KCM2, but his AP doesn't scale because Naruto overpowered his AP with his own on 3 separate occassions. And as far as I'm aware, there's nobody who actually scales to Obito's full durability, since nobody really did any notable damage to him, so there's no anti-feats there. At worst case, we can consider Obito's feats of tanking attacks from KCM2 Naruto as outliers, but I don't see an issue with it as of yet.
As for why the reflected blast is 6-C, that's just due to the mechanics of the Gunbai. The Mini Bijuu Bomb is an energy (chakra) based attack, all the Gunbai does is take this energy and convert it into Wind chakra, then reflects it. It doesn't change its potency in any way, and that's why it shouldn't be considered weaker or stronger. This is why Madara has Attack Reflection on his profile after all.
Still, I'm not conclusively saying Madara should scale yet, necessarily. After all, we have this example of Naruto easily catching an attack from his Susano'o with a Kurama arm. Now one could argue that these Mini-Kurama limbs (Mini arms, head, and tails) are above Naruto's physicals in KCM2 , but like I said, I want this post to be mainly about Naruto, so I'll leave Madara until we're through with Naruto.
Anyway, we may be arguing about a whole lotta nothing here, since we haven't determined whether Madara scales yet or not.
You also have to keep in mind that Naruto was NOT trying to harm the Bijuu or the Jinchuuriki at this point. He was actually trying to free them from Obito as quickly as possible while inflicting as less damage as possible, which he achieved quite efficiently.
So, to me, it seems quite clear that Kurama/BM Naruto is significantly above the individual Bijuu, which doesn't contradict KCM2 Naruto being on par with them in the slightest IMHO.
I'd also like to point out what I WON'T be doing in this post:
- I won't delve too deeply into who should or shouldn't scale to Naruto. I'm just making an argument for Naruto himself. IF said argument is accepted, then we can discuss the other characters in-depth.
- I won't be proving why the non-exploded TBBs scale to or above Bijuu's physicals, since that was already discussed at length before, and nobody seemed to object to it. Let's not waste time on semantics, please.
Your issue seems to stem from Obito scaling, and the other characters who would end up scaling such as KCM1, Guy, and Kakashi. However, there's a few logical issues here that I'd like to tackle.
- Kakashi and Guy were cornered by multiple Bijuu attacking them simultaneously, not just one, so even IF they did scale to 6-C, this wouldn't cause any issues because them scaling to one Bijuu would not contradict them being cornered by the combined might of 5+ Bijuu attacking them at once. With that being said, I don't actually think they scale to KCM2 Naruto and here is why:
* Guy is a non-factor in this argument since he doesn't have any feats that put him on par with KCM2 or Obito directly, so I'll just ignore him.
* Kakashi doesn't scale to Obito AT ALL, at least normally. He was overpowered by a casual Obito and almost defeated. The only time he actually managed to do anything against Obito, was when he punched him from within the Kamui dimension. This doesn't count towards his normal physical capabilities because he had received chakra directly from Kurama before being teleported by Obito, and also Obito was obviously caught off guard. That shouldn't lower his natural durability, I know, but I think it's still worth mentioning. So, Kakashi probably needs a Kyubi Enhanced key to reflect this feat, and other feats in this state.
But what about their 1-on-1 fight where they traded blows and Kakashi pierced him with a Raikiri? That fight absolutely shouldn't count IMO, because Obito was clearly not trying to kill Kakashi. His goal was to get stabbed by Kakashi in order to get rid off Madara's seal on his heart, so it's quite clear that he threw that fight. I don't personally view it as valid for scaling because Obito lost on purpose, and everything Kakashi did was a part of Obito's plan.
* Obito also doesn't really scale to KCM2 Naruto, in terms of AP. He only scales in durability for tanking a Rasengan to the face and a headbutt from KCM2, but his AP doesn't scale because Naruto overpowered his AP with his own on 3 separate occassions. And as far as I'm aware, there's nobody who actually scales to Obito's full durability, since nobody really did any notable damage to him, so there's no anti-feats there. At worst case, we can consider Obito's feats of tanking attacks from KCM2 Naruto as outliers, but I don't see an issue with it as of yet.
As Tracer pointed out prior to being Hakai'd, there were stress lines across Madara's arms when he withstood Naruto's assault. Logically speaking, if someone hits me with a weapon, and I block them with a shield, If I'm not able to withstand their momentum and force, I'll fall over or fly back, even if the shield itself can tank the attack. The recoil of the explosion is another factor, which Madara also withstood, unlike Naruto's clone which was sent flying.
As for why the reflected blast is 6-C, that's just due to the mechanics of the Gunbai. The Mini Bijuu Bomb is an energy (chakra) based attack, all the Gunbai does is take this energy and convert it into Wind chakra, then reflects it. It doesn't change its potency in any way, and that's why it shouldn't be considered weaker or stronger. This is why Madara has Attack Reflection on his profile after all.
Still, I'm not conclusively saying Madara should scale yet, necessarily. After all, we have this example of Naruto easily catching an attack from his Susano'o with a Kurama arm. Now one could argue that these Mini-Kurama limbs (Mini arms, head, and tails) are above Naruto's physicals in KCM2 , but like I said, I want this post to be mainly about Naruto, so I'll leave Madara until we're through with Naruto.
I'm not sure how this is an anti-feat. We have no idea how strong Lee actually is normally, so it would be hard to determine how big of a boost this actually was. Not to mention, he may have been using the Gates here in conjunction with Kurama's cloak, so that would make this even harder to quantify. It's just a feat, pure and simple, and Lee would scale to Madara's physicals regardless of whether he's 6-C, High 7-A, or 10-C. The tier doesn't really change anything at the end of the day, and I don't think we should base our opinions based on it.
Anyway, we may be arguing about a whole lotta nothing here, since we haven't determined whether Madara scales yet or not.
It doesn't directly scale above regular Bijuu Damas, but rather Naruto's own Striking Strength, which in turn scales to the Non-exploded TBBs he smacked away.
It's funny of you to say that, since that's literally the first thing that the Kurama Avatar did, casually, to 5 Bijuu simultaneously. Kurama casually manhandled them, and obviously matched their combined, charged, TBB with just one of his own uncharged TBBs.
You also have to keep in mind that Naruto was NOT trying to harm the Bijuu or the Jinchuuriki at this point. He was actually trying to free them from Obito as quickly as possible while inflicting as less damage as possible, which he achieved quite efficiently.
So, to me, it seems quite clear that Kurama/BM Naruto is significantly above the individual Bijuu, which doesn't contradict KCM2 Naruto being on par with them in the slightest IMHO.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,389
- 9,050
Also the fact that KCM1 and 2 should scale above his 8 Tailed Cloak that busted Pain's Chibaku Tensei since it has almost all of or all of Kurama's power in KCM1 and 2 Respectively.
- 11,753
- 16,166
Idk about KCM2 since it's more plausible, but KCM1 definitely doesn't have most of Kurama's chakra.
- 11,753
- 16,166
- 31,400
- 27,692
This is my biggest issue with it.
I don't think the novel statement by itself supports the force of the unexploded Biju Bombs scaling above their physical strikes. Which means that KCM2 Naruto's feat of deflecting them wouldn't be 6-C.
And we run into the issue of the Biju's physical strikes actually harming Sage Mode Madara. Sage Mode Madara having ten times higher durability than Edo Madara. Edo Madara who is apparently going to scale to KCM2 Naruto's striking strength, which is equal to the Biju's Striking Strength.
I still think the issue about the size of the Biju Bombs ultimately hasn't been answered either. When Naruto had to match the Biju's combined Biju Bomb in power, he had to make one equally as big as theirs. The size of the Biju Bomb is relevant.
So Naruto's Miniature Biju Bomb scaling equal to these Biju Bombs seem like a big inconsistency to me.
- 11,753
- 16,166
That's literally what the statement says, so that's a moot point. The Bijuu cloaks used in the novel are actually based on Naruto's, since it was developed from his DNA, so there's no reason to assume it functions differently.
I don't recall a singular Bijuu harming Madara with a physical strike. They harmed him with a combined Tail attack, so that contradicts nothing.
Even so, I didn't definitively say that Edo Madara scales yet, which I thought I made pretty clear.
So? Many of Naruto's TBBs and FRSs from the war arc are far bigger than some of his in SPSM or as an Adult. Does that mean we'll scale them above those purely because they're bigger? Hell, this TBB that matched the Bijuu is far bigger than the one he used against Juubito for example while in BSM, does that mean it's stronger? I think scaling based on size is a terrible idea.
- 31,400
- 27,692
So it's comparing a 1-meter Biju Bomb to a tail strike from just a Biju cloak. But this is just a chakra cloak, right? Not quite the same as a strike from a fully transformed Biju.
The Biju take turns hitting Madara and while he's obviously still able to fight, he is battered and bleeding.
It would be more unlikely to say they did zero damage to him than to say that did manage to hurt him with their strikes.
I thought that's what you're building up to though, no?
I don't mean to suggest it as a universal rule, but it still seems relevant to take into consideration. Larger jutsu typically carry more power just in general.
I wouldn't necessarily say so, but the BSM one has added benefit of Sage chakra + the weakness Juubito would have towards Sage jutsu.
- 15,989
- 11,285
test
- 11,753
- 16,166
That's not the point. A Bijuu bomb functions the same way, regardless of the form that's able to use it. I'm not saying a V2 TBB = BM TBB, but rather that the comparison between a non-exploded TBB and Bijuu's (Or a Jinchuuriki cloaked in Bijuu chakra) physicals should be the same. It's the same principle.
Accumulative damage is a thing, even in real life, so this also wouldn't necessarily contradict anything. Anyway, I'll stop beating around the bush, and just say it. I don't really think Edo Madara necessarily scales to KCM2 Naruto in all honesty. I don't think he's infinitely below him or anything, but with the current scaling, he wouldn't really be THAT much beneath him anyway, so I'm okay with it.
Not at all, and I would really appreciate it if you stop assuming things that I did not clearly say. All I wanted was to keep the discussion focused on Naruto. Since you've forced my hand though, as I said before, I don't think Edo Madara should scale, no.
I don't think it's relevant at all if it contradicts some clear scaling chain that we have established. The method is inherently flawed, unless we're talking about the same form during the same timeframe, more or less.
This scaling isn't contradictory because it goes as follows:
Kurama Avatar TBB = Combined Bijuu TBB >= Kurama Avatar > KCM2 Naruto = Non-exploded TBBs >= Bijuu physicals
My point was clear, do you think it's weaker than the bigger TBB or not? I didn't mention Juubito scaling because you already know I don't think Naruto scales to him anyway. (given the massive CRT I just made on the topic lol)
It's a simple case of AP vs AOE, and I'm sure you know that the AOE fallacy is a thing.
- 31,400
- 27,692
It's not presented as a universal principle. It's just one feat. All it tells us is that character's tail strike was weaker than the force of his Biju Bomb at that moment.
It doesn't say that this is the case for all Biju Bombs of every size, and all Tailed Beasts no matter what their level of strength is.
Okay, I'm interested in hearing more about that.
Sorry, didn't mean to assume. It was just the earlier arguments I saw was based around scaling Edo Madara to KCM2 Naruto.
AOE Fallacy is a thing, but it's not a total all-powerful law. Bigger jutsu can be more powerful than smaller jutsu. Area of Effect can be relevant concept to keep in mind. (Hilariously we calc most feats based on their area of effects when they're impressive, and then ignore area of effects when it isn't impressive. This isn't a gripe I have towards Naruto specifically, but this is something done by the wiki overall).
- 11,753
- 16,166
It's not presented as a universal law, but those are rare in Naruto anyway. It's one of the few instances that actually shed some light on how a Bijuu's striking strength compares with their non-exploded TBB. It's a canon feat that doesn't contradict anything or cause any inconsistencies, so why should we ignore it?
If you want more supporting feats, albeit slightly less straightforward, I think I know a couple.
- Kurama's TBB busted through the wood dragon that was restraining him previously. Yes, I know that the Wood Dragon absorbs chakra, but that doesn't matter since Kurama having less chakra or slightly weakened chakra wouldn't change the fact that in that instance his Non-exploded TBB was more powerful than its physical strength.
- Not as clear cut as the other two, I'll admit, but we have an instance where Bee's TBB busted through the barriers surrounding Turtle Island (with a bit of help from KCM Naruto). That barrier must've been put up with Bee's power under consideration, at least to an extent, so I think it kindaaaaaaaa supports this idea to an extent.
It's basically just what you pointed out, more or less. He wasn't portrayed as significantly stronger than the Bijuu with SM (A 10x amp at the very least), so his Edo self being greater than the Bijuu may cause problems in the chain overall.
Like I said, I'd hate if Madara was like rated as 100-1000x weaker than Naruto here, but since it's barely a 10x difference, I don't think it breaks the story in any way.
It's alright. I'm sorry if I was a bit vague or anything. I just thought it'd be more efficient to focus on Naruto himself, then move on to those who may or may not scale. But to be completely honest, I don't necessarily see anyone scaling besides maybe Obito's durability. That's pretty much it, off the top of my head.
Fair enough, they can be stronger for sure, but in this case the scaling may go against that, and with nothing that makes this scaling inconsistent, I think it's appropriate to invoke the AOE fallacy to an extent. Not to mention, we didn't even fully see the Mini TBB explode, so who knows how powerful it would've been? Not super relevant, but seriously, there's no major contradiction here imo.
Look, you're definitely not wrong, but I feel like that's just something that often happens in fiction whether we like it or not. The wiki simply adapts to it with things like the AOE fallacy to keep the scaling logical. Does it get abused sometimes? Absolutely, but it's probably one of those "necessary evil" type of things. That's how I view it anyway.
Last edited:
- 14,956
- 1,831
I am with uchiha slayer here.
XSOULOFCINDERX
They/Them- 21,389
- 9,050
Same.
- Status
