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Naruto God Tiers Downgrade

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So all of the arguments that I made for Madara downscaling from Hagoromo are just going to be ignored? Again?

I pretty clearly and blatantly pointed out that "approaching the level" of Hagoromo is enough for Madara to downscale from Hagoromo's extent of 5-B for specified reasons and multiple users agreed with me on this. This would, in effect, save the 5-B tiering for the effected characters.

So i'd like it if someone could actually address this point before continuing to agree with any downgrades.
 
As I already said in this thread,the downgrade isn't consistent.And people will create upgrade threads in the future.First it is Madara and then everyone else.
 
this downgrade is wrong and faulty

i already refute imad(Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false.)

yet he fail to ans and all of u also ignore that too

he think naruto and sasuke each dont have half of sage power without sun-moon seals therefore downgrade was perform

which is false
Sdadada
do u see what u guys miss


hagoromo wouldnt have said that he gave them 50% of of his power to each even thouthey dont have sun-moon seal

seal can be pass others

e.i minato pass Eight Trigrams Sealing Style seal to jiraiya then he passes the seal to naruto

and look like some are eager to close the thread .
 
Oi! if u aren't going to present arguments (and that's for both sides) then plz sit back and watch instead of pointless argument. This thread was open again thanks for others who have a rebuttal and that's it

Thank u guys for understanding
 
I'd like to reiterate that I can't find a single frame outside of that one scene in The Last where Sasuke's Rinnegan isn't active; any animation frame of Sasuke turning his head in the anime so that a glimpse of his left eye is shown, the care is taken to draw the Rinnegan there. If Sasuke ca deactivate his Rinnegan, he never chooses to do so, thus there should be no need for a difference between "Base" and "Rinnegan" in his keys. As well, Rinnegan Sasuke performs on par physically with Six Paths Chakra Mode Naruto in every fight they're shown together, both at the end of Naruto and against Fused Momoshiki in Boruto.

As well, we treat Naruto's striking strength as the same as his ninjustu AP, so I don't see why the same couldn't be said for Sasuke's Rinnegan.
Sasuke Rinnegan 6
Sasuke, shortly after discussing what happened to Boruto at the end of the fight with Momoshiki, then talking casually to his daughter.

Sasuke Rinnegan 7
Boruto Episode 65, Sasuke's speech to Boruto

EDIT: Lastly, it should be noted that The Last started production before the Naruto movie was even finished (hell, the movie came out ONE MONTH after the manga ended). Sasuke not having his Rinnegan in that scene is undoubtedly an editorial oversight, given the vast amount of evidence that proves he never deactivates it.
 
Doesn't matter it's a form or tech but Susano'o is context wise more powerful than it's user physicals.
 
I agree, both Kurama Avatar and Susanoo are stronger than their other forms,I did a revision about this,to add "higher with Susanoo and Kurama Avatar" but it didn't finish.
 
I am still annoying of that Toneri > SO6P Madara When Toneri get one-shotted by base naruto punch (even if you want to high ball and saying its KCM) Meanwhile Weakend Madara tanked spsm naruto's punch(who recived half of hagoromo power) easily
 
BlackeJan said:
Oi! if u aren't going to present arguments (and that's for both sides) then plz sit back and watch instead of pointless argument. This thread was open again thanks for others who have a rebuttal and that's it

Thank u guys for understanding
Click to expand...
 
Omimi said:
this downgrade is wrong and faulty
i already refute imad(Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false.)
Click to expand...
What? I don't think you read the thread at all then since I stated above:

In Conclusion: Naruto and Sasuke did not provide any Chakra to perform the Chibaku Tensei, the Chakra and the Seal were are provided by Hagoromo himself. So the results:

Naruto and Sasuke would fall back to Low 5-B from a weaker Naruto fighting the Low 5-B Toneri.

In the section:

Why These Ratings Are Incorrect

  1. Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto (Part II):
 
"Six Paths Senjutsu was not given to Naruto by Hagoromo, Naruto naturally awakened it."

This is false, the databook confirms it was given by Hagoromo

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature"

" Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. "

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/databook-iv-collection-thread.1012315/page-13#post-53973154
 
Momoshiki vs Kaguya

Jesus christ if i had a dollar for everytime someone used this argument i'd be rich

Let's just go through some of your absurdly ignorant statements

"I'm not sure on the canon of the Boruto Novels as they aren't written by Kishimoto"

Yes because the boruto movie novel was written by Kodachi who surprise surprise, writes the script for the manga AND anime

"Either way, we don't use secondary canon if it contradicts the main-canon (which it does), so I will be using the statement of "Momoshiki and Kaguya" that is directly written and drawn by Kishimoto; from the Naruto Gaiden manga."

I'm really not sure how someone can put so many wrong phrases into a single sentence

> It contradicts the main canon

How exactly again? The "main canon" Naruto gaiden states Kaguya was scared of something, cool. The "secondary canons" being the novels, manga and anime for Boruto all point towards it being about Kinshiki and Momoshiki,

Novels


From the Boruto novel written by Kodachi and Kishi

"It was Sasuke who spoke.

"It looks like the reason Kaguya was gathering White Zetsu soldiers was so she could fight against them…"

In other words, they were enemies who even Kaguya wouldn't have been able to oppose without an army."\

Sasuke literally says Kaguya was waiting for those two and Kaguya wouldn't be able to fight them without an army

Even in the "main canon" Manga for Boruto sasuke says the scroll is about Momoshiki and Kinshiki's invasion, not the entire cla
Sasukesasasada
, i even highlighted the statement for you Imade
He repeats this in the anime whilst looking at them

So novels written by Kodachi and Kishimoto, Boruto Manga AND boruto anime all say that Kaguya's scroll is referring to Momoshiki and Kinshik and not the whole clan

Main-qimg-3b854c36d3bcc71c107e4cb9d78939d8
 
"Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false."

This is literally one of the dumbest things i've ever seen and can be debunked with a single scan

Since i've already proven that Hagoromo gave Naruto SOSP Mode and Sasuke the rinnegan

"" From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…""

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature"

" Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. "

What exactly else would've caused Naruto's innate power to grow? The SOSP Mode obviously but again that was due to Hagoromo's chakra, if it was ONLY for the seal then there would be no reason for Naruto to get stronger himself

Sasukefawff
So either Hagoromo gave Naruto his chakra which gave him SOSP, which Kishimoto himself says is the case, or we go by your headcanon which means Naruto randomly got a power jump even though the chakra was only for the seal which wasn't used here. I genuienly can't believe the people on this thread, it's really not hard to try and have a simple reading comprehension.
Sasuke112
Naruto himself confirms they both got half his power, and Madara again refers to the power boost they got, nothing to do with the seal
Sasukedwads
If the chakra was ONLY for the seal and we know the chakra allowed them to gain SOSP, then please Imade explain why Naruto and Sasuke both got huge innate boosts in power, because your head canon literally makes no sense
 
Wouldn't it be the same length? Unless i'm spamming in which case i apologise and will stop.
 
OP's main point is that Hagoromo only gave Sasuke and Naruto chakra for the seals, which is false

His chakra gave them SOSP and Rinnegan, as i proved, which also gave them buffs in innate power which wouldn't happen if the chakra they received was ONLY for the seal.

Imade is fantastic at taking things out of context, even after the seals disappeared the power of the sage stayed with Naruto and Sasuke
Sasukedadw
Hagoromo did not only give them power to Seal Kaguya but beyond that, to rule the ninja world
Sasukedwada
, i guess Imade is going to argue that Ashura and Indra got SOSP chibaku tensei and not Hagoromo's power
 
TataHakai said:
"Six Paths Senjutsu was not given to Naruto by Hagoromo, Naruto naturally awakened it."
This is false, the databook confirms it was given by Hagoromo

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature"

" Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. "

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/databook-iv-collection-thread.1012315/page-13#post-53973154
Click to expand...
You're wrong. Six Paths Senjutsu is not Six Paths Sage Mode which is what you linked from the Databook. These are two separate things.

Six Paths Senjutsu is awakened via having the Chakra of the 9 Bijuu, it's why Madara literally says he also has Six Paths Senjutsu like Naruto as Madara had the 9 Bijuu Chakra.

"Hagoromo didn't give Sasuke the Rinnegan, Sasuke naturally awakened it."

Again, this is false

" From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/2mi8cr/translation_completed_uchiha_sasuke_4th_databook/

Let me remind you about the Wiki's discussion rule about the Naruto Databooks:

  • The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or questionable hyperbole.
Now let me remind you how the Rinnegan is naturally awakened:

To awaken the Rinnegan one needs the Chakra of Indra and Ashura. As the reincarnation of Indra, Sasuke only needed Chakra of Ashura. Sasuke achieved that when Hashirama (the previous reincarnation of Indra) granted Sasuke his Chakra. Sasuke naturally awakened it.

Hashirama gave Sasuke his Chakra before Sasuke ever met Hagoromo.

Yes, Sasuke naturally awakened the Rinnegan. You need Indra and Ashura Chakra to do it, Sasuke had both before meeting Hagoromo.

This is very simple.

Momoshiki and Kinshiki Stuff
I'm leaving that alone for Shadow's thread, what's been agreed upon in this thread is the downgrade from 5-B to Low 5-B for all besides Momoshiki and Kinshiki as they were of a separate rating.

"Why this is wrong is because it assumes that Naruto and Sasuke performed the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei with their own Chakra which is false."

This is literally one of the dumbest things i've ever seen and can be debunked with a single scan

Since i've already proven that Hagoromo gave Naruto SOSP Mode and Sasuke the rinnegan

"" From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…""

"From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature"

" Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. "

What exactly else would've caused Naruto's innate power to grow? The SOSP Mode obviously but again that was due to Hagoromo's chakra, if it was ONLY for the seal then there would be no reason for Naruto to get stronger himself. So either Hagoromo gave Naruto his chakra which gave him SOSP, which Kishimoto himself says is the case, or we go by your headcanon which means Naruto randomly got a power jump even though the chakra was only for the seal which wasn't used here. I genuienly can't believe the people on this thread, it's really not hard to try and have a simple reading comprehension. Naruto himself confirms they both got half his power, and Madara again refers to the power boost they got, nothing to do with the seal. If the chakra was ONLY for the seal and we know the chakra allowed them to gain SOSP, then please Imade explain why Naruto and Sasuke both got huge innate boosts in power, because your head canon literally makes no sense OP's main point is that Hagoromo only gave Sasuke and Naruto chakra for the seals, which is false

His chakra gave them SOSP and Rinnegan, as i proved, which also gave them buffs in innate power which wouldn't happen if the chakra they received was ONLY for the seal.

Imade is fantastic at taking things out of context, even after the seals disappeared the power of the sage stayed with Naruto and Sasuke

Hagoromo did not only give them power to Seal Kaguya but beyond that, to rule the ninja world, i guess Imade is going to argue that Ashura and Indra got SOSP chibaku tensei and not Hagoromo's power

Your point falls apart at the start since we know Naruto awakened Six Paths Senjutsu naturally and Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan naturally. Obviously Naruto and Sasuke retrieved power from Hagoromo, they were able to use Six Paths Ninjutsu, however, what's in contention is what Hagoromo distributed to them, what was naturally awakened and what Chakra was meant for what. I already explained this in the OP, but I guess you missed it: In chapter 679, the first time Kaguya sees Naruto and Sasuke (after they received power from Hagoromo) she notices that their dominant hands are engrossed with a large amount of Chakra and states that Hagoromo gave them a specific Jutsu. Reminder, the Byakugan (which Kaguya has) allows a user to see the Chakra Pathways in a target, it allows them to see the Chakra of their target. *The Byakugan can only see Chakra, with it Kaguya notices that Naruto and Sasuke solely have large amounts of Chakra in their dominant hands where Hagoromo had given them their Sun and Moon Seals respectively.

In chapter 681, Zetsu reveals that the power given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo was a powerful seal specifically meant to seal Kaguya. He explicitly states that they received the power to do so and that it is allocated for this specific seal to be meant on Kaguya as a powerful version of a Chibaku Tensei.

  • Direct confirmation that the real power given to them was the seals. It was given to them, it has a large amount of Chakra in it as seen by Kaguya.
In chapter 686, we get direct confirmation from Hagoromo himself that at the moment he no longer has enough Chakra to perform large scale Jutsu due to having just given it away (to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implaneted in their hands). This is further supported in chapter 690 when Hagoromo reveals he needed help and Chakra to bring back Naruto and his friends from fighting Kaguya in another dimension.

*Hagoromo reveals that he doesn't have much Chakra anymore, we know Sasuke and Naruto have a bunch of Chakra in their hands holding the seals, the seals having been given to them by Hagoromo.

Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya.

It's clear as day. We are shown that the seals have a lot of Chakra in them, that they are the main power Hagoromo bequeathed to Naruto and Sasuke. Then it's literally shown that once the seals are used they return to Hagoromo.

There is no denying this.

I'm not denying that Naruto and Sasuke got more powerful after meeting Hagoromo, otherwise they wouldn't be Low 5-B and return to their ratings before the meetign with Hagoromo.

We are told they got more powerful, we are shown it and it's proven.

The issue was the incorrect belief that Hagoromo evenly split his 200zt Chakra into Sasuke and Naruto. That was false, most of Hagoromo's Chakra went into the seals as it's shown, stated and proven to us, Naruto and Sasuke did come back more powerful, but it wasn't a 5-B Chakra they returned with since that relies on incorrect head canon and goes against what we're shown, told and given.
 
"Yes, Sasuke naturally awakened the Rinnegan. You need Indra and Ashura Chakra to do it, Sasuke had both before meeting Hagoromo."

> Databook written by Kishimoto says Sasuke awakened Rinnegan via Hagoromo

Imade: "Nope Kishimoto is wrong about his own series nope"


Yes the databook has it's inconsistencies but Sasuke got Hashirama's chakra FAR before meeting Hagoromo and yet only got the rinnegan after receiving Hagoromo's power AND the databook tells us Hagoromo gave him the rinnegan? Yes let's go with what you say and not Kishimoto

Except having Hashirama's power doesn't instantly give you a rinnegan, it takes decades as it did with Madara, not sure why i need to repeat this but

"" From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal…""

From the sage of six paths is where Sasuke got the rinnegan from, the fact that he got it instantly makes more sense this way since we know Hashirama's method takes decades, whereas directly from Hagoromo is instant.

"Your point falls apart at the start since we know Naruto awakened Six Paths Senjutsu naturally and Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan naturally."

Why do you keep repeating this? We have databook statements that say they didn't awaken it naturally, you cannot

"however, what's in contention is what Hagoromo distributed to them, what was naturally awakened and what Chakra was meant for what."

Again, Hagoromo repeateadly says the power isn't only meant for the Chibaku tensei, UNLESS you want to propose the headcanon that he also gave Ashura only power to perform a chibaku tensei when he makes a direct comparison to his distrubution of power between naruto and sasuke and ashura and indra
Sasukedadw


Please read this specific scan carefully since you don't seem to understand the exact meaning of Hagoromo's distrubution of power.

This was all after the sealing by the way, so the Seal argument doesn't work here.

"Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya."

If Hagoromo's chakra disappeared after the seal then why does Naruto still have SOSP mode? It was GIVEN to him by Hagoromo via giving Naruto his power, if Hagoromo ONLY gave chakra to Naruto for the seal then why didn't the power disappear once the chakra giving him the power did? It literally makes no sense
Sasukedwqe212
, unless Naruto kept the chakra from Hagoromo beyond the fight which literally everything including Hagoromo's words himself state.


"The issue was the incorrect belief that Hagoromo evenly split his 200zt Chakra into Sasuke and Naruto. That was false, most of Hagoromo's Chakra went into the seals as it's shown, stated and proven to us,"

Except Hagoromo himself says he gave them half his powers, absolutely nothing indicates "most" of it went to the seal, you are literally going off 1 page where their hands are glowing and that's it whereas i've given tons of scans AFTER the sealing where hagoromo says he gave them half his chakra each, the fact that Hagoromo says

"I too want to make the future better, this time i gave both of them the power" is literally the biggest indicator that the power isn't solely for the seal, but far beyond that which again is proven by Naruto keeping the SOSP Mode

"Also in chapter 690, as soon as Naruto and Sasuke use the seals on Kaguya, the seals disappear from their hands and immediately return back to Hagoromo. The seals given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo meant for the Chibaku Tensei returned back to Hagoromo after the Chakra for the seal was used on Kaguya."

This literally proves my point, the seals returned to Hagoromo but his power stayed, his equal power by his own words mind you, so the seals have absolutely nothing to do with Hagoromo's power, because once he's given that power away, it is now Sasuke and Naruto's innate chakra, which i've proven via their buff, otherwise if it was simply for the chibaku tensei Hagoromo wouldn't be comparing post seal to Ashura and Indra who WEREN'T given chibaku tensei.

Hagoromo never meant for the power to simply be for the Chibaku tensei, he literally asked them what they planned to do with the power AFTER the war which completely debunks this notio

Pretty much the only scan you need to debunk this post

Unless you are going to argue that Hagoromo gave Ashura six paths chibaku tensei and ONLY the jutsu and not just his power, which he did so again here, then there's no point in this thread.
Sasukedwqdda

Sasukedwada
You accept that Naruto and Sasuke got buffs, i've proven that Hagoromo gave them each half his power which they kept beyond the sealing, what is there even left to discuss?

Sasukedwadadd
 
@Imade

In chapter 686, we get direct confirmation from Hagoromo himself that at the moment he no longer has enough Chakra to perform large scale Jutsu due to having just given it away (to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implanetedin their hands). This is further supported in chapter 690 when Hagoromo reveals he needed help and Chakra to bring back Naruto and his friends from fighting Kaguya in another dimension.

  • to Naruto and Sasuke for the seals he has implaneted in their hands)
  • Only thing Hagoromo says in that red circle and in the entire conversation with the Hokages about why he doesn't have chakra ...I'll weave the signs. It's just that this jutsu requires a vast amount of chakra... Which I don't have right 'now,' since I've given it away. which there is nothing about the seals. Just post the scans and let others judge themselves what they read.
  • He only states all prior Gokage perform summoning technique together and he summons them from the afterworld for help.
As the reincarnation of Indra, Sasuke only needed Chakra of Ashura. Sasuke achieved that when Hashirama (the previous reincarnation of Indra) granted Sasuke his Chakra. Sasuke naturally awakened it.

  • Hashirama didn't give him chakra, he gave him a jutsu which we don't know what the heck it is, maybe it's a sealing jutsu. Maybe I'm the only one who doesn't know and someone tell me what it is if there is scan/statement.
  • This scan also doesn't prove Sasuke awakened just he can/could if he have decades (if he is given chakra by Hashirama) if at all but we have databook statements tell he given by Hagoromo which is more reliable than any theory.
Those who had Six Paths Senjutsu were Juubi Jinchuriki Obito, Juubi Jinchuriki Madara and... Naruto. The common 'denomitaro' being that these characters all had Chakra from each of the 9 Bijuu and Hagoromo reveals that this is the case for Six Paths Senjutsu.

  • Also, this sca doesn't says have anything about possessing Six Paths Senjutsu/SPSM or any power at all, Hagoromo explains the requirements and how to the undo Infinite Tsukuyomi, and nothing more. I'm honestly surprised no one called you on it as you seem to write what is not there.
  • Also, Hagoromo and Hamura have Six Paths Senjutsu as they have TSOs even before possess Tenseigan and Juubi.
  • Please, don't compare Juubi against other Bijuus as Juubi is not the sum of its parts as it stated by Kurama, it's chakra sensed by Naruto and literally stomping BM Naruto even when it doesn't have the majority of Kurama's and Hachibi's chakra.
 
Also can i just say that the idea of counting votes before the thread is concluded is stupid, why would votes even be counted before counter arguments can be made? that just sets everything in favour of the post maker since most people who vote early on will not return and read the counter arguments to have an opportunity to change their minds, yet their votes will be counted anyways.

The votes should only be counted when the thread is concluded, not whilst it's ongoing, it sets up an unfair advantage in the voting process.

I don't want to sound like i'm moaning but it just seems dumb to me, reading the entire thread and making your mind up after it's done is a better method of deciding if we're going by votes.
 
I heavily agree with Tata

For one Naruto himself proves that the power from Hag wasn't only for the Seal. He was granted other powers from Hag

For instance his ability to heal and revive. So that chakra wasn't only for the seal. Hag only gave them the seal for Kaguyas defeat.

Just like Asuras and Indra; Naruto and Sasuke inherited yin and yang. Physical and mental strength from Hag. They literally still have the abilities of yin and yang in their powers man.
 
I'm going to reset the vote tally since my argument was not made before the votes were taken, i want everyone to read both sides before choosing rather than simply choosing Imade's because that was the only argument here when a lot of people voted

So far it's

15 Disagree (EmperorRorepme, KLOL506, Me, Dzhindzholia, Rocker1189, 1997KD, AstralKing7, Mindovin. Js250476, BMWFanboy, I am myself, Omimi, GetRektNuub, KOMIE, Wrath of Itachi)

to

1 Agree (Imade himself)

and

1 Neutral (The Causality)

But i want everyone who voted before to have a chance to vote agai after reading both sides of the argument, so this argument is staying open until everyone has voted, i will update the votes as they continue to come in, once everyone who voted prior votes again we can come to a conclusion.
 
Anyone who's read Naruto knows this downgrade relies solely on OP's headcanon (that N&S somehow awoke Six Paths themselves) and contradicts the series so much it's hilarious to entertain, obviously disagree with the downgrade
 
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